Mxman38

Wondering If Anyone Knows Why I Have Compressor Surge Under Wide Open Throttle After installing My Zfr Turbo, Or How To FIx it? Happens Around 4Krpm Once Or Twice... Stock Plumbing, E85 And Intake. Thanks (Sorry About The Caps, My Phone Won't Let Me Run The MObile Version)

Wert842

iTrader: (3)

Any videos or sound clips of it? Probably just like everyone else's Zfr. It isn't a surge. More likely the way it sounds.

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Omiotek

iTrader: (2)

yep everyone thinks the flutter is surge..... people think that with a bone stock k04......

user 72239

iTrader: (4)

Probably just flutter, all turbos do it

Mxman38

no its surge, its currently at ZZP, waiting to hear results from matt. I think they are trying to tune it out but what im understanding is that you have to decrese HP? Would a set of cams help with surge?
I have a pretty good video of the "blip" im uploading now.

Mxman38

its right around the 5 second mark

Wert842

iTrader: (3)

Do you have an aftermarket bpv on it?

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Mxman38

no... i had a forge atmos on it but zzp said it backfires n **** with it so went back to stock.

Wert842

iTrader: (3)

Its losing boost during this or seems like its bogging for a second, right? This sounds like what my car was doing. Its causing an injector misfire window. The injectors can't keep up with the turbo.

Also, do you know what boost canister you have on the turbo?

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Mxman38

i have an upgraded fuel lobe on it for the 85.... i dont think its an injector issue.
IDK what a boost canister is... but yes it jerks pretty bad, i just bought a boost gauge to monitor boost to see if it drops, but i guess they are now saying its flutter? This car is a pita.

Omiotek

iTrader: (2)

this take time to perfect. its a new platform and theres a lot of tables in that ecu. i saw it all when the car was at our shop. tuning is not something you rush nor good fabrication. let them do their thing

Mxman38

I guess you kinda answered my question. Im not rushing by any means, just trying to learn more about our vehicles. I figured since we shared the same motor, it would basically be similar so i was a bit worried. I came from an LS platform, so the more i can diagnose what issues are what, the more i can help out our platform.

Being my daily driver, i have been through hell with this car being that (im assuming a completely new tune platform) however, with that said, both pwerks and zzp have busted their nuts trying to figure the thing out. Both shops have at least backed up their work and didnt leave me hanging like most did on the LS platform. Regardless, like i said I'm here to learn.

CudaJoe

iTrader: (1)

doesnt sound like the engine rpm stutters at any moment so I dont think its fueling. You get a loss of power during the surge? Does your boost studder? What PSI you have the zfr set too?

Nakaiya21

Ok...before anyone starts in on me again understand that I too am working with ZZP on this and will not pass judgement. I am also looking for a solution.....

Same situation. Compressor surge under WOT ONLY. Occurs in 3rd gear at 4000-4100 RPM ONLY and at MAP around 235. If I keep the MAP below this value at the same RPM then no surge.

Here is a video I uploaded: Coby ZFR Comp Surge 1 - YouTube

Take a look. So far we have tried everything. I am currently on a Forge BOV with yellow spring. Going back to oem BOV tomorrow to try to see if it makes a difference.

Issue was actually discovered by Matt and he has been diligently working on this. I tried reaching out to the forum before but was instantly flamed as people assumed I was out to get ZZP - which I am not. Just trying to find a solution and for a while thought I was the only one out here with this.

Issue occurs at the end of the power band in 2nd as well, but isn't as prevelant. So far have cleaned/replaced/checked every connection, MAF sensor, MAF harness, plugs. On the 3bar MAP and my car only has 11K miles... that is it. It is a 2008.

To the OP - I hope this helps you in your quest for solutions and ideas. Just wanted you to know that not everyone on here will flame you just for trying to figure out a solution in conjunction with what you are already pursuing.

In my case the MAP will read fine. This appears to be due to the smoothing in the sensor inputs. Where you see it distinctly is in the MAF - which will fluctuate.

I don't want to needlessly alarm people but I don't want someone to dismiss "turbo flutter" either. My car performs just fine outside of this particular issue so you wouldn't know without looking at the log...or in the case of the video - by hooking up a manual boost gauge directly to the intake manifold.

If anyone has any ideas then start posting... I am hoping that going back to the stock bov will solve this as my research so far indicates that Forge BOVs on other platforms have created surge issues.

If Matt or I can solve my issue then I will be happy to post up the solution... remember there is no reason at this time to believe that ZZP holds any fault in my particular situation. Matt has been working on mine as well....

Mxman38

matt Tuned Out My Surge... However, If I Roll On The Throttle In Third Or Forth It Flutters Like Crazy. My Boost Gauge Will JuMp From 25Psi To 10 Or So, Extremely RapiD. If IMax Out Second And BanG Third... If Its Over 4Krm After I SHift It Had No FlUtter.

Nakaiya21

Um, huh? So you don't have surge at all anymore at all - or you do have extremely bad surge but only under certain conditions?

Think I understand the rest of your post but as I am a 5-speed I wouldn't be able to power shift and keep it from dropping below that 4,000 RPM spot when transitioning from 2nd gear to 3rd gear....

tomj77

iTrader: (2)

do u still have vacuum canister? cause that's what my k04 did when vacuum canister was bad. bypass it and check it out

tomj77

iTrader: (2)

I bet when u get ur boost gauge (the car doesn't have one?? seriously?) ull notice it happens at a certain psi. if that's the case it is ur vacuum canister. vacuum canister builds and holds vacuum to open ur bpv quicker and quieter. if the check valve in it leaks at a certain psi, then it will send vacuum to ur bpv, opening it and causing what ur seeing

Nakaiya21

Awesome suggestion... I will check it out tomorrow....

So here is an accummulation of all the logs that have been taken so far...
2nd
4079 222 4547 248
4135 214
4224 227 4826 237
4058 222 4701 241
4090 227 4731 246
4249 222 4920 236
3973 219 4813 236
3965 219
4018 211
4088 226 4578 252
4271 222 5079 238
4025 213 4740 239
4008 191
4150 221
4070 217 4891 237
4261 211 4929 243

3rd
3871 236
3909 237
3990 240 4873 230
4186 234
4202 234
4163 232
3840 238 4833 229
4111 240
4105 235
3990 236
4092 232
3926 238 4943 233

The first number represents the RPM onset, the second number is the corresponding MAP onset. The third column represents the ending RPM and the last column is the corresponding ending MAP (when the oscillation smoothed back out). Keep in mind that the different readings are across ALL of the different tunes that Matt has tried. My car has a Hahn intercooler, 2.5" aftermarket charge piping, and K&N intake.

My car is a garage king and isn't in the weather (only seen rain once) but who knows? Oh and I changed the Forge BPV back to the oem bpv with no change in performance.

Matt M

The sound in the video above was due to fuel cut. It is part of the Regal ECM file that HP Tuners has not properly configured in the editor yet. You can hear the turbo speed change rapidly, but only because the injectors completely stop spraying.

Nakaiya21

Checked the vacuum canister. No change in performance. I guess the next step will to get more pictures posted....

tomj77

iTrader: (2)

how bout what matt said

Nakaiya21

I don't appear to have fuel cut in my particular case. Right now I have been asked to look for restrictions in the system. So far the only thing I can find is possibly the turbo outlet. ZZP welded on a longer tip so that the coupler could reach the charge piping. Right now it is felt that it is unlikely that this is the issue but I need to find out if anyone else has this as well just to be sure. In the meantime I am still looking for anything else that could possibly be restricting as I appear to be hitting the compressor surge line 5psi lower than the what the EFR compressor surge line states in the EFR compressor map.

For example: Surge at 21 lbs/min at 2.3 pressure ratio when the EFR Map states that the pressure ratio should actually be at 2.7???

With that said here are some pics of my set up... keep in mind it is tight back there so the pictures are going to be a bit hard to make out....

Here is the intake manifold:

I tapped into the "T" with a manual boost gauge to make the video/monitor the surge

Turbo outlet:

You can see the weld where the tip was attached. The entire length of the transition (from outlet to neck at the top of the coupler) is approximately 6". I need to know if anyone else has a long neck also so that we can officially rule this out. Keep in mind that right now it is the only restriction that I can find so I need to also know if there is something I am missing here.

Intake:

K&N Intake

Intake to turbo inlet:

Ok, this one is going to be hard to see.... you can make out the intake going to the turbo below most of the lines. It mates up exactly. The turbo is situated next to the firwall but does clear (about 1/8" at the tightest point).

The charge piping is the clear image charge piping. It does not neck down at all so I don't think that there are restrictions there as well..... not sure what to look for in terms of restrictions at this point. Could use some pointers????

Mxman38

It only happens 3rd gear-- anything prior to 4k rpm it will flutter WOT... then after that mark it holds boost perfect, no flutter. Hopefully when I do the FMIC it will solve this issue.

Nakaiya21

Update: Met up with a couple of EFRs and grabbed some data logs on one of them. Can confirm a couple of small bumps in the MAF between 4000 and 4800 RPM, but no pronounced oscillation as in my case. Not sure whether to feel relieved that I was able to see fluctuation in the MAF on another car or not. The EFR I grabbed logs on has the upgraded cams so that probably counts for something - may even be comparing apples and oranges at this point. Sent logs back to ZZP for confirmation though.

Did a 4th gear short pull on the highway also - experienced surge at 4000RPM again so it appears to be repetitive across all gears. Unfortunately didn't have my computer plugged in at the time.

Also took a ride in a Trifecta-tuned car. It also exhibits a small amount of my car's symptoms, but once again it is only slight and was only felt during a 3rd gear WOT pull. Couldn't grab a log on it to confirm though.

Will try bypassing my catch can and see what happens....running out of ideas right now....down to exploring options to get car ZZP at this point.