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First and foremost, I love this turbo. It has literally made my RFL 10x deeper and louder
The responsiveness of this turbo is insane.
I've been fighting an issue with what I'm assuming is a mechanical issue i.e. a boost leak or something is collapsing and choking off the turbo. I'm almost positive that the tune isn't the problem as the only torque limiting I'm doing is for 2nd gear in the torque by gear table and through the MAL table.
Anyone that's tuned a ZFR or WR3, have you seen something like this before? I have replacement ZZP charge pipe replacement couplers on their way (would have purchased the Werks upper but it wasn't long enough based on my measurements) as I'm assuming they're either leaking and or the upper is collapsing. I also had to add a longer coupler to my K&N intake to properly mate to the turbo (4 ply treadstone coupler I had laying around).
Here's some screen shots of what I'm talking about -
This is a 3rd and 4th gear pull. You can see that 4th has a small dip as well but it isn't anywhere near as aggressive as 3rd.
Here's a 2nd and 3rd gear pull. 2nd is limited as requested in the tune. I rolled into it in 3rd to try and see if that would help the issue and it seemed to make it worse?
Here's a 3rd gear pull that is much cleaner than the rest but it still has the same dip..
I don't have experience with those turbo's, but it does look like you say, a mechanical problem with either a boost leak or collapsing intake hose.
Only other thing I can think of is a mechanical issue with the WG actuator, such as a leaking diaphragm.
On a side note, I see you have the same lag in ETC to pedal request when shifting gears and getting back on the throttle. I can feel that occurring when I shift very quickly, and power comes back on gradually in the next gear. I can only see in either your log (or any of mine for that matter) that it is a the slow ETC response causing it (because WG DC jumps immediately with pedal position). Not related to your thread, but just throwing it out there if anyone knows how to improve this.
It looks like the car is overshooting and trying to regain control. It looks like the wgdc drops some with the dips and your airload def is moving the dips. You might be able to smooth things out a bit in those ranges with the wgdc and your DAL tables. The fact it looks nice in 2nd with torque limiting makes me really think it's the ecu going oh **** to high.
It looks like the car is overshooting and trying to regain control. It looks like the wgdc drops some with the dips and your airload def is moving the dips. You might be able to smooth things out a bit in those ranges with the wgdc and your DAL tables. The fact it looks nice in 2nd with torque limiting makes me really think it's the ecu going oh **** to high.
Maybe we'll get lucky and Area will chime in.
If it were trying to gain control from overshooting, I would think that it would use WG control, or maybe ETC, but both of those remain steady during the wild changes in airload (like the top graph, 3rd gear for example).
I guess overly sensitive WG PID values in the tune might cause this type of behavior, but I would expect to see that also in the WGDC, which I don't in these logs.
T-man - is your WGDC limit set to 76-77 range? If so, you could leave the tune of the DC untouched, but raise the limit up, and see if it tries to go higher when air load dips (I would expect that if it was a mechanical boost leak, as the ECU tries to hit target air load).
If it were trying to gain control from overshooting, I would think that it would use WG control, or maybe ETC, but both of those remain steady during the wild changes in airload (like the top graph, 3rd gear for example).
I guess overly sensitive WG PID values in the tune might cause this type of behavior, but I would expect to see that also in the WGDC, which I don't in these logs.
T-man - is your WGDC limit set to 76-77 range? If so, you could leave the tune of the DC untouched, but raise the limit up, and see if it tries to go higher when air load dips (I would expect that if it was a mechanical boost leak, as the ECU tries to hit target air load).
It's hard to see how much of a dip it is. But given the boost looks like it drops ~10kpa with a bigger turbo a change in wgdc of 0.5 could have that effect. It's really hard to guess from screen shots, getting your hands on the log def would help to be able to look at all the variables at once and not have to guess from a picture
I don't have experience with those turbo's, but it does look like you say, a mechanical problem with either a boost leak or collapsing intake hose.
Only other thing I can think of is a mechanical issue with the WG actuator, such as a leaking diaphragm.
On a side note, I see you have the same lag in ETC to pedal request when shifting gears and getting back on the throttle. I can feel that occurring when I shift very quickly, and power comes back on gradually in the next gear. I can only see in either your log (or any of mine for that matter) that it is a the slow ETC response causing it (because WG DC jumps immediately with pedal position). Not related to your thread, but just throwing it out there if anyone knows how to improve this.
That crossed my mind (WG issues) but I'm not sure just yet. The lag in ETC isn't a concern for me as I've been able to go from vacuum to 20+ lbs in almost half a second. Really nothing you can do from what I understand as the ECU will open the ETC as much as it needs to reach the targeted airflow.
Originally Posted by ECaulk
It looks like the car is overshooting and trying to regain control. It looks like the wgdc drops some with the dips and your airload def is moving the dips. You might be able to smooth things out a bit in those ranges with the wgdc and your DAL tables. The fact it looks nice in 2nd with torque limiting makes me really think it's the ecu going oh **** to high.
Maybe we'll get lucky and Area will chime in.
I thought this too and was messing around with some tables to try and correct it/test theories but ultimately, I wound up reaching out to Area to help. It always helps to have another set of eyes, especially when they're much better than your own
Originally Posted by Omiotek
Are you still running stock charge pipes.......
Also what map sensors do you have
Yes I am and I never once had an issue with my previous setup that I was pushing much, much harder than this. I do believe it's possible that the factory couplers are weak and they will be replaced as soon as my ZZP upper to compressor inlet arrives. If I have to pony up and buy an upper CP, I will. Was just trying to get by without pissing my wife off
I'm on the stock MAP sensors. I'm not trying to target more than 21-22lbs either. It will hit 22 in both 3rd and 4th but with 3rd gear, you get the overshoot/overcorrection. It does it slightly in 4th gear but nowhere near as bad.
If it were trying to gain control from overshooting, I would think that it would use WG control, or maybe ETC, but both of those remain steady during the wild changes in airload (like the top graph, 3rd gear for example).
I guess overly sensitive WG PID values in the tune might cause this type of behavior, but I would expect to see that also in the WGDC, which I don't in these logs.
T-man - is your WGDC limit set to 76-77 range? If so, you could leave the tune of the DC untouched, but raise the limit up, and see if it tries to go higher when air load dips (I would expect that if it was a mechanical boost leak, as the ECU tries to hit target air load).
My WG is set at 71.5 and slowly starts to ramp up around 5000 RPM. I've messed with the PIDs, even going so far as to just zero them out and it made zero change. I'm not going to do anything else until I hear back from Area47. He seems to believe I have tables fighting each other, which is quite possible. He would know better than me.
Changed all couplers today and just got a chance to test it and it still is bouncing in third. It will bounce, then finally recover and start to build boost again.
I'm not sure what else to check. Hopefully Area saves the day and it's in the calibration.
Califcarm- the works wr-3 is essentially the same as a 6758efr/zfr.
Surprised you are still on stock pipes and map sensors. I hope you aren't still on stock intercooler.
Califcarm- the works wr-3 is essentially the same as a 6758efr/zfr.
Surprised you are still on stock pipes and map sensors. I hope you aren't still on stock intercooler.
Figured out what the issue is. After doing some research on here about peoples boost issues with the ZFR, I read a post where someone suggested to test the WG canister by unplugging the reference line and then slowly accelerating in 2nd gear (so as not to load it up too hard and push 30+lbs). Before I did this, I decided to try adjusting the WG rod as 09Cobaltss1 suggested in an old post. I adjusted the WG with 4 full turns of the nut and it made zero difference.
So I decided to try unplugging the reference line and see if the WG was bad. I went out to test it while logging and holy ****! I didn't even get to 100% pedal input before the car was pushing 24lbs and absolutely roasting the tires. So.... I guess I'll be replacing the WG can.
That sucks, but at least you've likely figured out the issue
Tried one last ditch effort last night. Removed my DP and 02 housing to make it easier to adjust the WG rod. I pulled that sucker way down!
Did a WOT pull this morning and holy F! Car pulled and held 24psi (will be backing this down), 34lbs/min VE and 40lbs/min MAF. Rail pressure took a hit too from 2400 down to 1900, which isn't too bad but I don't like it. So I will definitely be backing down the ethanol content and leaning it out a little more.
For right now, this is only on 17 degrees of timing. It's scary how fast this turbo spools. I can definitely see why they call it a trans killer. It spools faster than my stocker and R did.
Tried one last ditch effort last night. Removed my DP and 02 housing to make it easier to adjust the WG rod. I pulled that sucker way down!
Did a WOT pull this morning and holy F! Car pulled and held 24psi (will be backing this down), 34lbs/min VE and 40lbs/min MAF. Rail pressure took a hit too from 2400 down to 1900, which isn't too bad but I don't like it. So I will definitely be backing down the ethanol content and leaning it out a little more.
For right now, this is only on 17 degrees of timing. It's scary how fast this turbo spools. I can definitely see why they call it a trans killer. It spools faster than my stocker and R did.
Vacuum to 24lbs in .515 seconds.
what rpm did you hit 24psi to drop the fuel pressure like that on e47?
my boost control tables won't do you any good if you're tanking the fuel pressure at a 24 psi hit. thats where i start lol
60* ambient and E55 just isn't a good mix lol
Originally Posted by ECaulk
what rpm did you hit 24psi to drop the fuel pressure like that on e47?
Started the pull at 4800RPM in 3rd and by 5200, I was sitting at 1900PSI
I know I can get away with less ethanol. I was just trying to make it easier at the pump. The pump I use I tested between E55 and E60. So I was just pumping straight and not blending. I will now have to start blending
It hooks decently well at around 70% in 2nd gear on the Nitto 555 G2's I've got on there. It's also getting warm here in AZ (91* yesterday), so that helps too
03-09-2017, 11:59 AM
