Originally Posted by Josh@ottp

Wow this thread has gone off topic. Let's talk about all of those heat exchangers. I think you may have too many in the system. You can only pull so much heat out of the incoming air with the laminovas.

Originally Posted by 07blackg5

simple terms.

If the pump flows too much you run the risk of pushing warm coolant through the heat exchanger before it a chance to have the heat "pulled" from it. the system, in turn, is just circulating warm coolant with minimal heat extraction. obviously some heat is pulled, but not as much as could/should be. If you take the opposite into consideration, too little flow and you don't circulate enough coolant to effectively cool the air charge. There needs to be a balance somewhere in the middle

When you are running a complex setup with multiple heat exchangers, even though the coolant is traveling at a faster pace, it spends more time in a heat exchanger.

Again, there needs to be a balance of all the different variables. Too small of a pump with too complex of a cooling system will putt too much stress on the pump and the system won't function properly. Too big of a pump with minimal cooling "mods" and you run the risk of inefficient heat extraction

Obviously this was already stated, just tried to sum it up in simple terms. There is a lot more that goes into it, but this is just in regards to the bigger pump=better argument

another, even more simple example:

you have a refrigerated tunnel, and a warm can of soda. if you have a major league pitcher (higher flow pump) throw the can through the tunnel, you are going to get your soda fast, but it will still be very warm.

if you rolled the can through the same tunnel with a gentle push, its going to take longer to get your soda, but it will be much cooler

Originally Posted by armcclure

You can't pull general rules of thumb out of thin air. That is absolutely not correct.
As far as equations, it's not that simple. Equations with what numbers? As a "general rule of thumb" with even a modest understanding of physics, flow rate has zero impact on heat transfer rate. It's all about delta temp.

A dual pass works not because of time spent in the ic, but because you have 2 cores getting the coldest coolant instead of one.
2x the core coverage of the best delta temp.
Allot your same reasoning to the front HE and maybe you'll see the huge flaw in your logic. Open your damn eyes and look at the whole system.
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Exactly. Flow would likely be so great that your approach a constant temp, cutting best transfer rate.

Originally Posted by mezzanno

No, he made some valid points. You are trying to say a stock intercooler pump will be more effective at pulling heat than a pump that flows 5x more which is false.

Originally Posted by ECaulk

You example does not work, thats a single fluid pass system. Not the system installed in the cobalt, and you're forgetting its a mass of fluid not a fixed unit.



I don't know where you understanding of physics and thermodynamics are from but flow has a huge impact, but I'm done trying to argue this point. You have your opinion and won't change or provide any information backing it up other than delta T.

Originally Posted by armcclure

You have no point to argue, that's clear. But let's pose a simple question;
All other variables equal, which will cool off (remove the most heat from) a red hot piece of steel within a set time: A pot of boiling water, or a pot of liquid N2?

Originally Posted by armcclure

It's very applicable. Answer please. No its not, there is no flow you're solely looking at conduction and free convection heat transfer of two different solutions (water has a high heat capacity and nitrogen is much lower (about half). So I will say it again, this doesnt apply. If it will make you happy I'll sit down later and actually calculate out the heat in a piece of iron at lets say 1100C (should be good and red hot) and then the heat each nitrogen and boiling water can remove assuming both can boil off without building additional pressure on the system

I don't think you thought out the variables on your question. With no other variables, the faster breeze "feels" cooler. The reason it feels colder is because more heat is being extracted due to additional flow heat transfer rate at the surface, therefore more cooling

However, changing the pump flow rate changes other variablesPlease list them if they're so important. I think you may just be inadvertently helping prove my point. Unless the pressure increases so greatly that you'll be putting more heat into the system from the pumping it wont

Originally Posted by 07blackg5

Windchill is a totally different issue Its still heat transfer with moving fluids when you break it down, moving heat from a warm body to a cold body. The intake charge doesnt care how cold the intercooler cores feelyou cant feel the cores so this doesnt apply, the wind chill was an example of forced convection heat transfer one can physical observe without any instruments. They care about the actual temperature which thermodynamics 0th law, a=b, and b=c then a=c, so if a is cooler because extra heat can be extracted due to higher heat transfer at the heat exchanger to the ambient air, then additional heat can be removed from c. Coolant flowing faster doesnt make the cores "feel" any colder

Originally Posted by armcclure

It's very applicable. Answer please.

I don't think you thought out the variables on your question. With no other variables, the faster breeze "feels" cooler.

However, changing the pump flow rate changes other variables. I think you may just be inadvertently helping prove my point.

Originally Posted by armcclure

Lol.

Ok, 2 things here:

1) change the pot of n2 to a pot of ice water, since you're so adamant about running off on tangents.

2) apply everything you just said to the heat exchanger side of the equation. Then maybe it'll click.

Originally Posted by Spawne32

Gonna be honest, wind chill is a poor analogy to make. lol

Originally Posted by ECaulk

Still trying to understand where this hot vs cold come into flow differences. Use the ice water for both and leave one sit, and stir the other. The stirred one will cool it faster, increase the rate of agitation and it will cool even quicker because the cooler water particles will come into contact with the hotter metal particles, instead of having to transfer through additional water particles that have started to heat up.



Its a simple example that looks at fluid flow and heat transfer.

Originally Posted by armcclure

Goodness gracious can you just stop and think about what happens to the temperature of the coolant exiting the heat exchanger when pump flow is increased...
Then apply that to Paul's setup vs a stock HE.

Originally Posted by Spawne32

Wind chill is a "perceived decrease in air temperature felt by the body on exposed skin due to the flow of air." it has absolutely not a single god damn thing when it comes to intercooling a car. lol I understand exactly what arm is trying to get across, a high head pressure is important to the intercooling system to keep flow consistent more so then overall flow rate. Read on head pressure and thermal conductivity and the relationship between the two. You can in fact have excess flow rate which will decrease cooling, which is the reason why a slower flow at a higher head pressure can cool better then a faster flow. Water has to spend time in both the heat exchanger and the laminovas to both dissipate heat and absorb heat to its thermal capacity to be truely efficient, if the water flows out of either the heat exchanger or the laminova cores too quickly, not only does it not cool down the fluid effectively but decreases the overall capacity of heat that can be pulled from the air inside the manifold. Simple concept really, bottom line is, there is a point where overkill can hurt you.

Originally Posted by ECaulk

Lets agree to disagree. Although there is a limit on flow and its effect on cooling, i'm not saying just keep pushing more and more fluid through the same system, and never once did I say it will definitely cool better on the stock system, the OP did not have a stock system. Increased flow rate can help increase heat removal. If you don't want to believe that then go ahead, you have your opinion and I'll have mine.

Originally Posted by riceburner

Hence the reason having a lot of heat exchanger area is probably good for you long as the pump can flow it. The more g/e area, the more time the fluid is spent cooling down regaurdless of the speed it flows. Of course at that point there weight, more lines, more headaches.

Originally Posted by armcclure

ECaulk: on that same note, not once did I ever say that it would cool WORSE than the stock system, or that a slower pump will always cool better.

The entire purpose of everything I said was simply to stop some newb from going out and buying some badass pump and expecting some magical temp drop.

I also specifically said that this should work well on Paul's car, because he has massive cooling capacity up front, that should have no problem adequately cooling down the faster flowing fluid.

In a perfect world we would want massive amounts of coolant rushing through the IM, and a lazy river through the h/e to bring the temp down as much as possible. But, as it is, we have one circuit and one pump. And unless the front heat exchange system is doing a tremendous job of bringing the coolant temps down to near ambient, there is nothing to be gained from a faster flowing pump.
If any system can utilize a higher flowing pump to drop temps, it's Paul's. I never said anything against that.

But when you have dozens of unsuspecting people popping into a thread stuck on a "bigger is better" mentality, they're going to run out and waste their money. Preventing that, and getting people to understand how/why Paul can utilize this pump, was my only intention.

Originally Posted by Josh@ottp

Originally Posted by 07blackg5

I think the argument is because half of the people are referring to the flow through the intercooler cores, and the others are referring to the heat exchangers.

The faster "cooled" coolant is replaced into the lam cores, the more effective the cores will be at extracting heat from the intake charge. obviously there is a limit of efficiency, but in general.

The passes through the heat exchanger(s) are the opposite. the longer the coolant stays in them, the more heat will be extracted from the coolant. again, to an extent. once it has reached ambient temp, time spent in the radiators is redundant.

As with almost everything, there needs to be a balance. coolant needs to be cycled through the intercooler quickly enough to be effective, but also stay in the heat exchangers long enough to be cooled properly.

Originally Posted by Viperoni

Great link.

I can haz this IC?