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ZZP's Neutral Balance Shafts.. ZZP's Neutral Balance Shafts..
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Old 01-12-2010, 09:53 AM   #1
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ZZP's Neutral Balance Shafts..
Bad Investment or good investment I have the extra money but just curious what people think.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:26 AM   #2
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i say if you are building the motor than yes, but just to do as a bolt-on, prolly put that cash towards other parts, such as pistons

also allecotec and OTTP also sell the balance shafts
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:33 AM   #3
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I'd do valve springs before balance shafts.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:42 AM   #4
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Don't do balance shafts unless you are going to be upgrading your valvetrain. The biggest benefit of those is so that you can spin the motor higher (which requires valvesprings at the least). There are a lot of compromises with those when it comes to OEM drive-ability. I'm not necessarily saying you shouldn't get them, just that you more than likely are not at the point to need them if you have to ask...
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:50 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyros777 View Post
I'd do valve springs before balance shafts.
agreed. balance shafts are a good idea but are so hard to get to it's easier to do valvesprings. balance shafts should be one of the last things to do to the motor
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Old 01-12-2010, 11:41 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edubs View Post
Don't do balance shafts unless you are going to be upgrading your valvetrain. The biggest benefit of those is so that you can spin the motor higher (which requires valvesprings at the least). There are a lot of compromises with those when it comes to OEM drive-ability. I'm not necessarily saying you shouldn't get them, just that you more than likely are not at the point to need them if you have to ask...
can you elaborate on the loss of driveability?
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Old 01-12-2010, 11:59 AM   #7
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From my understanding the harmonics at idle and near idle are changed, essentially killing any chance of a stock-feeling idle.
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:02 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapEatr View Post
can you elaborate on the loss of driveability?
Never had experience with them but from what I hear, the vibs are insane.
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:02 PM   #9
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is it true its easier to do these with the head off? or does the motor have to be dropped.
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07MetallicSC View Post
is it true its easier to do these with the head off? or does the motor have to be dropped.
i believe the head has to come off as the timing chain is removed to get to the water pump/balance shaft chain. and to get the timing chain off, you have to remove chain guides and cam gears...

i believe it can be done with the motor in the car, albeit with some finagling
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapEatr View Post
can you elaborate on the loss of driveability?
The NBS will cause vibrations that the weighted stock shafts cancel out. It's just like vibrations caused by solid or poly mounts. Some don't care, some do. I'm simply stating that the car will certainly not fall within OEM specs w/ those shafts installed. The NBS are definitely a better option than the delete kit, and I plan to install them myself, but there are compromises...
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriGinaL Condo View Post
Never had experience with them but from what I hear, the vibs are insane.
I removed the balance shafts and the vibration isn't that bad. And I have an Atom where the engine is bolted to the frame and the frame is bolted to a racing seat.

The first 500 miles or so I saw a vibration at 3200 rpm that would make the mirrors vibrate enough to make it hard to see (like a deep bass from a stereo). Now for some reason, it seems less

plus my girlfriend really likes to ride along now.
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:49 PM   #13
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They can be done without removing the head, the vibes at 3200 are what i have heard before, not the insane craziness people think

I have the GM ones(pretty damn heavy) goin in my build

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:54 PM   #14
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those are the neutrals correct?
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:58 PM   #15
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i stand corrected. don't have to remove the head, but you do have to remove valve cover and cam gears/chain guides... ?
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:59 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bolus View Post
I removed the balance shafts and the vibration isn't that bad. And I have an Atom where the engine is bolted to the frame and the frame is bolted to a racing seat.

The first 500 miles or so I saw a vibration at 3200 rpm that would make the mirrors vibrate enough to make it hard to see (like a deep bass from a stereo). Now for some reason, it seems less

plus my girlfriend really likes to ride along now.
I respect you, so don't take this the wrong way, but there's no real way to compare an Atom to a Cobalt in any category. LoL

Quote:
Originally Posted by JapEatr View Post
They can be done without removing the head, the vibes at 3200 are what i have heard before, not the insane craziness people think

I have the GM ones(pretty damn heavy) goin in my build
I know your comment isn't necessarily directed towards me, but I do want to throw my 2 cents in here.

Everyone has different tolerance levels. The more you modify an engine, the more OEM drive-ability and street manners you are likely to compromise. I had a straight through 3" exhaust (no muff, lol), poly trans bushings and TTR upper mount for quite some time. Really wasn't THAT bad to me. It was usually the typical "A/C and idle is where it's noticeable" kinda thing.

Then I switched to the Powell rotated mounts/stock upper and threw a muffler out back and mother of god did it get much, much more comfortable. Threw a turbo on there and it got even a little more tolerable. I noticed and heard things that I completely forgot about, lol.

I guess my point here is that as car fanatics, we tend to adapt quite well. After your build, you probably won't think it's THAT bad. Do me a favor after a few months; though, and go ride in a bone stock 06 LSJ. I'm sure you get my point...
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Old 01-12-2010, 01:04 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edubs View Post
I respect you, so don't take this the wrong way, but there's no real way to compare an Atom to a Cobalt in any category. LoL



I know your comment isn't necessarily directed towards me, but I do want to throw my 2 cents in here.

Everyone has different tolerance levels. The more you modify an engine, the more OEM drive-ability and street manners you are likely to compromise. I had a straight through 3" exhaust (no muff, lol), poly trans bushings and TTR upper mount for quite some time. Really wasn't THAT bad to me. It was usually the typical "A/C and idle is where it's noticeable" kinda thing.

Then I switched to the Powell rotated mounts/stock upper and threw a muffler out back and mother of god did it get much, much more comfortable. Threw a turbo on there and it got even a little more tolerable. I noticed and heard things that I completely forgot about, lol.

I guess my point here is that as car fanatics, we tend to adapt quite well. After your build, you probably won't think it's THAT bad. Do me a favor after a few months; though, and go ride in a bone stock 06 LSJ. I'm sure you get my point...
my own personal experience is october of 08 i got laid off. to help with some bills i stripped the car back to stock and sold everything i had ( car is now back to what it was plus more ) and i went from solid mounts, catless 3" etc to full stock and it was kinda nice for a bit. you could talk to the person next to you you didnt have to yell. nothing vibed. i could hear the blower again. now im built again and im happy with where it is. your correct tho as modders we do get comfortable with our builds and forget what it was
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Old 01-12-2010, 01:07 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07MetallicSC View Post
my own personal experience is october of 08 i got laid off. to help with some bills i stripped the car back to stock and sold everything i had ( car is now back to what it was plus more ) and i went from solid mounts, catless 3" etc to full stock and it was kinda nice for a bit. you could talk to the person next to you you didnt have to yell. nothing vibed. i could hear the blower again. now im built again and im happy with where it is. your correct tho as modders we do get comfortable with our builds and forget what it was
I borrowed my brother's 08 LNF for a week a couple of months back and just had to laugh for the first 5 minutes every time I got behind the wheel. I definitely love what I have and wouldn't go back, but situations like that remind me how much I need a dedicated daily driver. What idiot goes and heavily modifies their daily driver? LoL
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Old 01-12-2010, 01:11 PM   #19
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im trying to tell a kid at work he needs to sell me his 02 cavalier 2.4 so i can have it for a daily. with of course a full suspension and maybe a couple other things of course..... ah who the hell am i kidding ill mod that too
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Old 01-12-2010, 02:44 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edubs View Post
I respect you, so don't take this the wrong way, but there's no real way to compare an Atom to a Cobalt in any category. LoL



I know your comment isn't necessarily directed towards me, but I do want to throw my 2 cents in here.

Everyone has different tolerance levels. The more you modify an engine, the more OEM drive-ability and street manners you are likely to compromise. I had a straight through 3" exhaust (no muff, lol), poly trans bushings and TTR upper mount for quite some time. Really wasn't THAT bad to me. It was usually the typical "A/C and idle is where it's noticeable" kinda thing.

Then I switched to the Powell rotated mounts/stock upper and threw a muffler out back and mother of god did it get much, much more comfortable. Threw a turbo on there and it got even a little more tolerable. I noticed and heard things that I completely forgot about, lol.

I guess my point here is that as car fanatics, we tend to adapt quite well. After your build, you probably won't think it's THAT bad. Do me a favor after a few months; though, and go ride in a bone stock 06 LSJ. I'm sure you get my point...

definatly not directing anything to you...the kid i bought those shafts from was scared to install them cuz the thought the vibes may destroy the engine...LOL\

The comment towards bolus and the comment regarding drivability is totally understood. i did the same thing and went from having polys to OTTP mounts, louad ass ZZP exhaust to smooth Hahn...etc. certainly the DD aspect and creature comforts take a hit for performance.

But i have ridden in a stock Atom (Quicksilver, driven by Aaron Silver) and other than the wind in your face and the organ shifting tight suspension...it sounded like a bone stock LSJ(whining blower and all) so i believe there is a slight comparision

Now certainly bolus wont have dash rattles...
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Old 01-12-2010, 02:47 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapEatr View Post

I have the GM ones(pretty damn heavy) goin in my build
http://www.zzperformance.com/cobalt_...1143&catid=143

ZZP shafts are much better designed than the other 2 choices and will produce gains on the dyno and the track over the other offerings.
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Old 01-12-2010, 02:48 PM   #22
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Now certainly bolus wont have dash rattles...
Ding Ding Ding!
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Old 01-12-2010, 03:04 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooomer View Post
http://www.zzperformance.com/cobalt_...1143&catid=143

ZZP shafts are much better designed than the other 2 choices and will produce gains on the dyno and the track over the other offerings.
It is stated that the gm shafts free up 10 hp, Which is surprising given there weight being greater than stock

what is the weight on your balance blanks?
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Old 01-12-2010, 03:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooomer View Post
http://www.zzperformance.com/cobalt_...1143&catid=143

ZZP shafts are much better designed than the other 2 choices and will produce gains on the dyno and the track over the other offerings.
Not calling out your product, but it would actually be interesting to see a dyno comparison on all three choices.

Man, that Saturday would suck...
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Old 01-12-2010, 03:21 PM   #25
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zooomer, how do the neutral shafts compare to a balance shaft delete?
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Old 01-12-2010, 03:21 PM
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