ZZP's Neutral Balance Shafts..
01-14-2010, 12:05 PM
#52
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01-14-2010, 12:33 PM
#53
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Absolutely. However, V
Zooom, why don't you create a thread or talk to sean/josh via PM? Would probably be a little better for the sake of this thread since its got some pretty good info about the shafts in it.
Zooom, why don't you create a thread or talk to sean/josh via PM? Would probably be a little better for the sake of this thread since its got some pretty good info about the shafts in it.
01-14-2010, 01:23 PM
#55
ZZP has posted the weights of their shafts, its on the site, it sits on a scale reading 1.75lbs iirc. right along side stock shafts which both are over 2lbs each. I can only take it to mean that Zoomer is trying to point out OTTPs claims of their shafts weighing under 5lbs are false, as they are bigger than stock.
I dont have any GMRacing shafts around anymore to measure so I cant speak to either side.
01-14-2010, 01:43 PM
#57
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ZZP has posted the weights of their shafts, its on the site, it sits on a scale reading 1.75lbs iirc. right along side stock shafts which both are over 2lbs each. I can only take it to mean that Zoomer is trying to point out OTTPs claims of their shafts weighing under 5lbs are false, as they are bigger than stock.
01-14-2010, 02:23 PM
#58
The problem with developing products for a market and selling them based on their merrits is that other vendors don't always have to give accurate information in order to compete. Most customers do not verify the accuracy of what they are told from any vendor and they only buy products once so they never get a chance to AB compare things. What ZZP has found in the past is that we lose a lot of sales, sometimes for a few years to companies like this but eventually patterns emerge and customers start posting their own findings. This holds true if you were to misrepresent the weight of a product, or say that you aren't selling the same axles for $400 that another company is selling for $225 only to be proven later that you were or making claims about cooling surface area of 4900, when it's closer to 4000 or claiming that a blower you sell will give 350WHP. Sometimes it takes years but eventually the combination of ZZP cars outperforming others and independent customers posting and talking in meets brings light to many things. This is the ZZP strategy. Over the long haul continue in markets where others leave and prove that we value honesty over immediate sales based on sometimes false claims. And keep in mind, no matter what is said by a vendor, in the end the customers always vote and in a few years the leader is elected.
I will weigh our shafts and the gm ones next week to see exactly what they weigh, I'll even post a picture. In the meantime though, how about answering my questions? I'm sure others want to know.
01-14-2010, 03:09 PM
#59
If you will take a minute to look you will see that I posted the CORE SPECS, I didn't have the total weight at the time....thus I listed what I knew.
I will weigh our shafts and the gm ones next week to see exactly what they weigh, I'll even post a picture. In the meantime though, how about answering my questions? I'm sure others want to know.
I will weigh our shafts and the gm ones next week to see exactly what they weigh, I'll even post a picture. In the meantime though, how about answering my questions? I'm sure others want to know.
01-14-2010, 03:46 PM
#60
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I think this is pointless to be honest. You don't need these to rev to 8k. Balance shafts help to smooth the engine out, removing them frees up a few hp not really worth the cost.
I've got better things to spend my money on.
I've got better things to spend my money on.
01-14-2010, 04:21 PM
#61
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then buy the better things? this is for those interested or asking questions about them. im buying mine from ottp when i have the head off and pistons goign in this summer...
01-14-2010, 04:29 PM
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lol... damn 07...
i will be buying some here eventually. there's nothing better than long ass gearing with a fat torquey powerband when you're in auto-x, makes for less shifting (with the appropriate cams/etc...)
i will be buying some here eventually. there's nothing better than long ass gearing with a fat torquey powerband when you're in auto-x, makes for less shifting (with the appropriate cams/etc...)
01-14-2010, 04:32 PM
#63
They may not be needed to get to 8K, we know Area has seen 8K+ on a stock bottom end, but when it comes down to what will give problems at that point, balance shafts are one of the only 2 things that GM mentioned.
As to the discussion above: The HP gain is from the counterweight effect no longer being there. It takes very little effort to spin up a balanced small diamater piece of material, regardless of rpms. The flywheel effect of the shafts based on an extra pound or two is almost irrelevant. Lighter is almost always better assuming the fucntion and quality remains the same though.
01-14-2010, 06:02 PM
#66
One thing to consider though, is that the stock cast shafts are NOT designed to spin at 16,000 rpms. GMPP even mentions this and offers a replacement part that they have obviously determined to be necessary for reliable performance at that level. They also suggest a billet oil pump drive gear under the same situations (well, sustained rev-limiter or high-rpms), making me believe that they ACTUALLY TESTED THE ENGINE AT SPEED until stuff gave problems, something no vendor here has done.
They may not be needed to get to 8K, we know Area has seen 8K+ on a stock bottom end, but when it comes down to what will give problems at that point, balance shafts are one of the only 2 things that GM mentioned.
As to the discussion above: The HP gain is from the counterweight effect no longer being there. It takes very little effort to spin up a balanced small diamater piece of material, regardless of rpms. The flywheel effect of the shafts based on an extra pound or two is almost irrelevant. Lighter is almost always better assuming the fucntion and quality remains the same though.
They may not be needed to get to 8K, we know Area has seen 8K+ on a stock bottom end, but when it comes down to what will give problems at that point, balance shafts are one of the only 2 things that GM mentioned.
As to the discussion above: The HP gain is from the counterweight effect no longer being there. It takes very little effort to spin up a balanced small diamater piece of material, regardless of rpms. The flywheel effect of the shafts based on an extra pound or two is almost irrelevant. Lighter is almost always better assuming the fucntion and quality remains the same though.
01-14-2010, 07:40 PM
#69
Senior Member
I'd have to disagree with you on this one. Specifically concerning drag racing, if I can omit a 4th gear shift by being able to rev to 8k and maintain my trap speed over 120 then it's well worth not making the shift and loosing MPH.
01-15-2010, 12:35 AM
#70
They gain power by not having to drive a counterweight. Spinning something that is not balanced, takes much more power than spinning the same weight that is balanced. Having a shaft that is not counterweighted is where you gain the power, not in a weight reduction of the shaft itself. Basically saying, a heavy neutral shaft is better than a lightweight counterbalanace shaft, as it will take less energy to drive.
01-15-2010, 08:01 AM
#71
They gain power by not having to drive a counterweight. Spinning something that is not balanced, takes much more power than spinning the same weight that is balanced. Having a shaft that is not counterweighted is where you gain the power, not in a weight reduction of the shaft itself. Basically saying, a heavy neutral shaft is better than a lightweight counterbalanace shaft, as it will take less energy to drive.
01-15-2010, 12:05 PM
#73
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They gain power by not having to drive a counterweight. Spinning something that is not balanced, takes much more power than spinning the same weight that is balanced. Having a shaft that is not counterweighted is where you gain the power, not in a weight reduction of the shaft itself. Basically saying, a heavy neutral shaft is better than a lightweight counterbalanace shaft, as it will take less energy to drive.
01-16-2010, 05:39 PM
#75
One thing to consider though, is that the stock cast shafts are NOT designed to spin at 16,000 rpms. GMPP even mentions this and offers a replacement part that they have obviously determined to be necessary for reliable performance at that level. They also suggest a billet oil pump drive gear under the same situations (well, sustained rev-limiter or high-rpms), making me believe that they ACTUALLY TESTED THE ENGINE AT SPEED until stuff gave problems, something no vendor here has done.
They may not be needed to get to 8K, we know Area has seen 8K+ on a stock bottom end, but when it comes down to what will give problems at that point, balance shafts are one of the only 2 things that GM mentioned.
As to the discussion above: The HP gain is from the counterweight effect no longer being there. It takes very little effort to spin up a balanced small diamater piece of material, regardless of rpms. The flywheel effect of the shafts based on an extra pound or two is almost irrelevant. Lighter is almost always better assuming the fucntion and quality remains the same though.
They may not be needed to get to 8K, we know Area has seen 8K+ on a stock bottom end, but when it comes down to what will give problems at that point, balance shafts are one of the only 2 things that GM mentioned.
As to the discussion above: The HP gain is from the counterweight effect no longer being there. It takes very little effort to spin up a balanced small diamater piece of material, regardless of rpms. The flywheel effect of the shafts based on an extra pound or two is almost irrelevant. Lighter is almost always better assuming the fucntion and quality remains the same though.
On the answers to the balance shafts and many other questions, it can be pointless to go over. If vendors not going to be accurate and honest about the products and customers don't care, why bother to respond at all? If you, the customers, are not holding vendors accountable for being honest, then you get shody products and cars not performaning as well as you'd like. Why don't I just claim ours are double hardened and give 25HP? In terms of hardening, this is done because of the enormous side loads on spinning an unbalanced cast iron shaft. these loads can be 100,000x the load of a neutral shaft. Using different materials changes manufacturing requirements as well.
Some members here are well educated and understand topics quite well. A good understanding of physics is required at times to discuss a topic. If you don't understand what is being discussed and why, answering quesitons doesn't really matter. but we'll continue to release products with detailed explainations that outperform other items available and ZZP will continue to lead the performance leaderboards. As this is recognized, I believe it will pay off for our company. In terms of this product, your car will perform better with the ZZP shafts than the alternatives (save complete removal), period.
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