No Muffler = Bad Gas Milage!!
04-11-2006, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by giovanhalen
Don't need to reason a fact! But if you want me to guess, the engine oil and other lubricants are cold ant therefore thicker making the transmission and oil pump harder to turn which takes more power=more fuel. Fuel may not atomize as well when the engine is cold.
04-11-2006, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by 280Z1977
It is not "FACT!" Depends on where you live for one. Also A/C uses more gas then the heater. Gas burns faster in extreme heats, meaning more gas, more air, less mpg. Extreme cold will decrese mpg as will extreme heat. So it is not a fact winter is worse then summer.
04-11-2006, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Toronto SS
The idle time when it is -30 out eats a lot more gas then in the summer where you just wait for the idle to drop and go.
Originally Posted by vanillathrilla
haha a guy from cali talking about winter driving...whoo! ok I'm good now. It gets so cold here I have to use my dog sled sometimes. Now that's cold!
Originally Posted by 280z1977
It is not "FACT!" Depends on where you live for one. Also A/C uses more gas then the heater. Gas burns faster in extreme heats, meaning more gas, more air, less mpg. Extreme cold will decrese mpg as will extreme heat. So it is not a fact winter is worse then summer.
Also with new cars you do not need to let the car idle down and if you are in -30 then you have a block heater and really don't waste gas then.
04-11-2006, 01:08 AM
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Whether I need to or not I do idle longer in the winter cuz I refuse to sit in a cold car. That leads to worse gas mileage.
ps. the ss sc doesnt come with a block heater.
ps. the ss sc doesnt come with a block heater.
04-11-2006, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Toronto SS
Whether I need to or not I do idle longer in the winter cuz I refuse to sit in a cold car. That leads to worse gas mileage.
ps. the ss sc doesnt come with a block heater.
ps. the ss sc doesnt come with a block heater.
Either way it is not a fact winter = worse gas mileage.
04-11-2006, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by BOB, THE AUTO ANSWER MAN
Using the heat should not make the car use anymore gas. But using the defroster will! Why? Well, when the defroster is used, the air conditioning compressor cycles on and off to remove excess moisture from the inside of the windshield. Also, when you have your heating system on mixed mode or bilevel (blowing out at the floor and the windshield) the air conditioning compressor is running.
04-11-2006, 02:12 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by vanillathrilla
In cold weather, our vehicles take a much longer period of time to reach full operating temperature. And they take this extra time each and every time we start them up, even if they have not fully cooled down.
Modern engine-management systems are very efficient at optimizing the fuel/air ratio entering the engine. The oxygen sensor monitors the percentage of oxygen in the exhaust, compares this with the percentage of oxygen in the atmosphere, and generates a low-voltage signal that communicates this ratio to the computer. The computer then adjusts the pulse-width of the fuel injectors -- the precise period of time each injector is open on each injection cycle --to fine-tune the amount of fuel reaching each cylinder.
The system makes this very fine adjustment dozens of times each second, working very hard to reach the optimum air/fuel ratio for any given situation, and at steady-state cruise speed seeks to approach the perfect ratio of 14.7 to 1, called the stoichometric ratio. The system is running in a "closed loop" when it is relying upon the oxygen-sensor signal to fine-tune engine operation.
But the engine-management system can seek this optimum air/fuel ratio only when the engine is up to full temperature. In fact, the computer does not look for a signal from the oxygen sensor until it approaches full temperature. During the warm-up cycle -- which takes considerably longer in cold weather -- the computer operates on a warm-up program based on coolant temperature, mass airflow or MAP sensor input of air volume and temperature, throttle position and engine rpm. This is called "open loop" operation, meaning the system is not operating off the feedback from the oxygen sensor.
In open-loop operation during the warm-up period, the engine requires -- and is provided with -- a richer air/fuel ratio to ensure good combustion.
It needs this extra fuel for the simple reason that a percentage of the atomized, then vaporized, fuel delivered to the engine condenses into liquid gasoline on cold internal engine components such as the intake manifold, intake valves, pistons and cylinder. And remember, it's gasoline vapor, not liquid, that burns.
Until those parts warm up, the engine needs more fuel to operate with reasonable drivability. Thus, the colder the weather, the longer it takes for your engine to reach full operating temperature and closed-loop operation, and thus the more fuel the engine uses to deliver the same driving cycle. That's the primary reason your engine consumes more fuel in winter driving.
Another factor in winter mileage is air density, defined as the number of air molecules per cubic foot of air entering the engine. Remember that 14.7-1 air/fuel ratio? That means 14.7 parts of air are mixed with one part of fuel for the perfect air/fuel ratio -- that's a lot of air!
In winter, colder air means denser air -- more molecules per cubic foot. At any specific throttle setting or opening, the same number of cubic feet of air, but containing more air molecules, will enter the engine. The computer will provide more fuel to create the proper air/fuel ratio at that moment. This is a bit more subtle, since "more air/more fuel" produces more power, so you may be able to operate at a slightly lower throttle setting -- sort of rebalancing the equation.
Modern engine-management systems are very efficient at optimizing the fuel/air ratio entering the engine. The oxygen sensor monitors the percentage of oxygen in the exhaust, compares this with the percentage of oxygen in the atmosphere, and generates a low-voltage signal that communicates this ratio to the computer. The computer then adjusts the pulse-width of the fuel injectors -- the precise period of time each injector is open on each injection cycle --to fine-tune the amount of fuel reaching each cylinder.
The system makes this very fine adjustment dozens of times each second, working very hard to reach the optimum air/fuel ratio for any given situation, and at steady-state cruise speed seeks to approach the perfect ratio of 14.7 to 1, called the stoichometric ratio. The system is running in a "closed loop" when it is relying upon the oxygen-sensor signal to fine-tune engine operation.
But the engine-management system can seek this optimum air/fuel ratio only when the engine is up to full temperature. In fact, the computer does not look for a signal from the oxygen sensor until it approaches full temperature. During the warm-up cycle -- which takes considerably longer in cold weather -- the computer operates on a warm-up program based on coolant temperature, mass airflow or MAP sensor input of air volume and temperature, throttle position and engine rpm. This is called "open loop" operation, meaning the system is not operating off the feedback from the oxygen sensor.
In open-loop operation during the warm-up period, the engine requires -- and is provided with -- a richer air/fuel ratio to ensure good combustion.
It needs this extra fuel for the simple reason that a percentage of the atomized, then vaporized, fuel delivered to the engine condenses into liquid gasoline on cold internal engine components such as the intake manifold, intake valves, pistons and cylinder. And remember, it's gasoline vapor, not liquid, that burns.
Until those parts warm up, the engine needs more fuel to operate with reasonable drivability. Thus, the colder the weather, the longer it takes for your engine to reach full operating temperature and closed-loop operation, and thus the more fuel the engine uses to deliver the same driving cycle. That's the primary reason your engine consumes more fuel in winter driving.
Another factor in winter mileage is air density, defined as the number of air molecules per cubic foot of air entering the engine. Remember that 14.7-1 air/fuel ratio? That means 14.7 parts of air are mixed with one part of fuel for the perfect air/fuel ratio -- that's a lot of air!
In winter, colder air means denser air -- more molecules per cubic foot. At any specific throttle setting or opening, the same number of cubic feet of air, but containing more air molecules, will enter the engine. The computer will provide more fuel to create the proper air/fuel ratio at that moment. This is a bit more subtle, since "more air/more fuel" produces more power, so you may be able to operate at a slightly lower throttle setting -- sort of rebalancing the equation.
I officially retract my comment in another thread referring to your neck of the woods as "Ditchwater Alberta"
Regards
WopOnTour
04-11-2006, 02:18 AM
#36
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Originally Posted by 280Z1977
Sucks for you. Either way it is not a fact winter = worse gas mileage.
Either way it is not a fact winter = worse gas mileage.
WopOnTour
04-11-2006, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by WopOnTour
You DONT know what your talking about. They are talking about weeks and months at -0C and colder. It WILL result in a significant increase in fuel consuption. Known fact in any of the Northern climes. I would suggest a Cali boy STFU when it comes to cold weather operation. You really have no clue.
WopOnTour
WopOnTour
04-11-2006, 03:09 AM
#38
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That's the problem Wasey. I for one am quite certain you don't know what you are talking about... BTDT!
(What's worse is you think you do!)
You wanna talk about what happens at +105, that's another story but I assure you I can read fine...
Your statement in post #32 (that I quoted above) is just plain 100% WRONG
If your "point" was that extreme ambient heat CAN ALSO result in increased consumption, that would also be correct. As I'm sure some of the members here from Phoenix or Vegas can attest. But you wont get a lot of support from anyone claiming you know "all about" the effects of extremes when you LIVE in the most moderately temperate climate on the continent!!
Or because your Uncle lives in Alaska!! LOL
WopOnTour
(What's worse is you think you do!)
You wanna talk about what happens at +105, that's another story but I assure you I can read fine...
Your statement in post #32 (that I quoted above) is just plain 100% WRONG
If your "point" was that extreme ambient heat CAN ALSO result in increased consumption, that would also be correct. As I'm sure some of the members here from Phoenix or Vegas can attest. But you wont get a lot of support from anyone claiming you know "all about" the effects of extremes when you LIVE in the most moderately temperate climate on the continent!!
Or because your Uncle lives in Alaska!! LOL
WopOnTour
04-11-2006, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by WopOnTour
That's the problem Wasey. I for one am quite certain you don't know what you are talking about... BTDT!
(What's worse is you think you do!)
You wanna talk about what happens at +105, that's another story but I assure you I can read fine...
Your statement in post #32 (that I quoted above) is just plain 100% WRONG
If your "point" was that extreme ambient heat CAN ALSO result in increased consumption, that would also be correct. As I'm sure some of the members here from Phoenix or Vegas can attest. But you wont get a lot of support from anyone claiming you know "all about" the effects of extremes when you LIVE in the most moderately temperate climate on the continent!!
Or because your Uncle lives in Alaska!! LOL
WopOnTour
(What's worse is you think you do!)
You wanna talk about what happens at +105, that's another story but I assure you I can read fine...
Your statement in post #32 (that I quoted above) is just plain 100% WRONG
If your "point" was that extreme ambient heat CAN ALSO result in increased consumption, that would also be correct. As I'm sure some of the members here from Phoenix or Vegas can attest. But you wont get a lot of support from anyone claiming you know "all about" the effects of extremes when you LIVE in the most moderately temperate climate on the continent!!
Or because your Uncle lives in Alaska!! LOL
WopOnTour
04-11-2006, 06:00 AM
#40
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Wasey, just where do you get this ****? If you do not understand the fundamental principles of electronic fuel injection that's your problem. I suggest you get some text books or at least Google "Ideal Gas Law" and study it until you understand its impact with respect to the air-fuel ratio requirements of an internal combustion engine’s stoichiometry. Quite simply the colder the engine operating temperature and inlet air-charge is, the more fuel must be delivered- plain and simple.
Plus there are physical factors that further influences your winter consumption, that you appear to have no grasp of. Why do you think there’s NO MENTION of higher ambient temperatures having “significant” impact on consumption at fuel economy resources such as:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/factors.shtml
http://www.chevron.com/products/prod...rmance/pg5.asp
http://www.tc.gc.ca/programs/environ...uide/page4.htm
Beginning with significantly richer AFRs required for start up, after start, thru warm-up and continuing throughout the drive cycle you just need more fuel when it's cold to extreme levels. Combine that with significantly higher idle speeds (increasing the # of injection events) and your fuel economy takes a significant nose-dive
HOWEVER, any additional fueling necessary during extremely HIGH ambient operation are for the most part merely the recovery of losses from various "parasitic" demands due to the combination of increased electrical loads such as longer engine cooling fan ON cycles, A/C compressor clutch, the compressor pumping loads and the increased battery self-discharge rate that commences immediately after shut-down. This results in increased alternator output being necessary and of course the required HP to drive it, and yes- additional fuel.
BUT
COMBINED this amount of additional fuel at 100F is NOWHERE NEAR the additional startup, afterstart and warmup and roadload enrichments required to operate at -18 under identical trip cycles. If you want to math it out yourself, see sentence 2 of this post.
Here’s a couple of pretty decent additional resources:
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/density_altitude.htm
http://www.diy-efi.org/efi332/equations/algorith.htm
WopOnTour
Plus there are physical factors that further influences your winter consumption, that you appear to have no grasp of. Why do you think there’s NO MENTION of higher ambient temperatures having “significant” impact on consumption at fuel economy resources such as:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/factors.shtml
http://www.chevron.com/products/prod...rmance/pg5.asp
http://www.tc.gc.ca/programs/environ...uide/page4.htm
Beginning with significantly richer AFRs required for start up, after start, thru warm-up and continuing throughout the drive cycle you just need more fuel when it's cold to extreme levels. Combine that with significantly higher idle speeds (increasing the # of injection events) and your fuel economy takes a significant nose-dive
HOWEVER, any additional fueling necessary during extremely HIGH ambient operation are for the most part merely the recovery of losses from various "parasitic" demands due to the combination of increased electrical loads such as longer engine cooling fan ON cycles, A/C compressor clutch, the compressor pumping loads and the increased battery self-discharge rate that commences immediately after shut-down. This results in increased alternator output being necessary and of course the required HP to drive it, and yes- additional fuel.
BUT
COMBINED this amount of additional fuel at 100F is NOWHERE NEAR the additional startup, afterstart and warmup and roadload enrichments required to operate at -18 under identical trip cycles. If you want to math it out yourself, see sentence 2 of this post.
Here’s a couple of pretty decent additional resources:
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/density_altitude.htm
http://www.diy-efi.org/efi332/equations/algorith.htm
WopOnTour
04-11-2006, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jaslowyota
wop on tour knows his ****!!
WopOnTour, do you have any clue what I am talking about? My one and only point is that for EVERY person in the world winter doesn't = worse gas mileage. Therefore it is not FACT. Why is this a mind-boggling concept that you can not grasp???
04-11-2006, 02:26 PM
#43
Premium Member
Originally Posted by 280Z1977
Too bad he can't read.
WopOnTour, do you have any clue what I am talking about? My one and only point is that for EVERY person in the world winter doesn't = worse gas mileage. Therefore it is not FACT. Why is this a mind-boggling concept that you can not grasp???
WopOnTour, do you have any clue what I am talking about? My one and only point is that for EVERY person in the world winter doesn't = worse gas mileage. Therefore it is not FACT. Why is this a mind-boggling concept that you can not grasp???
If it's WINTER...
BUT the weather and conditions are more like SUMMER...
Then you WONT use more fuel
Brilliant
Wop
04-11-2006, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by WopOnTour
So what you're sayin is...
If it's WINTER...
BUT the weather and conditions are more like SUMMER...
Then you WONT use more fuel
Brilliant
Wop
If it's WINTER...
BUT the weather and conditions are more like SUMMER...
Then you WONT use more fuel
Brilliant
Wop
04-14-2006, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by 280Z1977
Can you not read?? And can people in Canada not read??? So because I live in California, I don't know what I am talking about. Well seeing as I have family in Alaska and North Dakota and have visited them in the cold months. I think I might know what -0C and colder weather feels like and what it does to cars. And I am talking about 105+F and hotter for weeks and months that WILL result in a significant increase in fuel consuMption. So once AGAIN, it is not a fact that everywhere you are winter=worse gas mileage. You people really can't read.
THIS POST BLOWS!
04-17-2006, 04:35 PM
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hehee
Originally Posted by 280Z1977
It is not "FACT!" Depends on where you live for one. Also A/C uses more gas then the heater. Gas burns faster in extreme heats, meaning more gas, more air, less mpg. Extreme cold will decrese mpg as will extreme heat. So it is not a fact winter is worse then summer.
With logic like that I am not wasting anymore time trying to talk with you. The combustion chamber temperature is always extremely hot. You might actually get very very slightly better mileage in cold air than hot if your car was already warmed up. Does it take more fuel to run the AC or drive with the windows open? I don't know, some people say you will get better mileage with the AC on recirc, and the windows up, because with the windows down the aerodynamic drag will use more fuel than turning the AC compressor, but I guess that would depend on how fast you are going since the extra drag of having the windows down at 45 would not be much at all.