Ladies and gentlemen:

We are in the final stages of determining pricing and equipment packages for our about-to-be-released LSJ 2.0 TurboSystems. We'd like your input on how to offer them.

We'll offer much more detailed information with prices, specs and pics in the actual product release, but first...we'd like to know how you, the enthusiasts, would like to see the system levels and separate components configured.

While complete packages will be our ultimate goal, we well realize that there will be demand for separate components, as well as different level packages. Not everyone will want, or need, injectors or a calibration. Others won't need a turbo or manifold, but may want our intercooler and StreetRace Intake, and others still may want...well, you get the picture.

As the LSJ Community is full of resourceful folks doing a lot of their own things, and tuning capability is also widespread, we feel it warrants a different approach than what we've done in the past with our other TurboSystems. Here's how I'd like to present the information:



Component Group Breakdown

I've listed the major component groups here, and assigned a number to each. Each group would include related hardware (fasteners, gaskets).


Turbocharger
Turbo Manifold
Street Race Intake Manifold
Front-Mount Intercooler
Turbo exhaust outlet housing and downpipe
Air intake system and air filter
Charge air piping and hoses
Blow-off valve system
Turbo oil line system
Injectors/harness/PCM calibration


There will also be the optional aspects of PortFueler and GT35R Turbo, but let's concentrate on the essentials first.

The question: Of the above component groups, how many should we offer separately, and why?




Modular System Levels

We'd like to offer some system packages too, where you folks can benefit from purchasing multiple component groups as systems. The benefits will be:


Cost: Combining component groups will reduce cost as compared to purchasing separate groups.
Compatibility: As the component groups are designed to mesh perfectly wth one another, the more groups you get, the less effort you'll have to expend to 'pull it all together', right on up to the complete system solution including ALL groups.

Here's some initial suggestions for Modular System Levels:

Level I:

Turbocharger
Turbo Manifold
Turbo oil line system


Level II:

Turbocharger
Turbo Manifold
Turbo oil line system
Turbo exhaust outlet housing and downpipe
Air intake system and air filter


Level III:

Turbocharger
Turbo Manifold
Turbo oil line system
Turbo exhaust outlet housing and downpipe
Air intake system and air filter
Front-Mount Intercooler
Charge air piping and hoses
Blow-off valve system


Level IV:

Turbocharger
Turbo Manifold
Turbo oil line system
Turbo exhaust outlet housing and downpipe
Air intake system and air filter
Front-Mount Intercooler
Charge air piping and hoses
Blow-off valve system
Street Race Intake Manifold


Level V:

Turbocharger
Turbo Manifold
Turbo oil line system
Turbo exhaust outlet housing and downpipe
Air intake system and air filter
Front-Mount Intercooler
Charge air piping and hoses
Blow-off valve system
Street Race Intake Manifold
Injectors/harness/PCM calibration


So, we could consolidate and do fewer levels...I don't see doing any more than five, however...any combinations desired outside of these Level offerings would just be separate component groups, priced separately.

So dig in, boys and gals...tell me what YOU want to see!

i just cant wait til this is finally done!

level IV.. im just excited for anymof them to come out though.. and not the first or second one.. if its a turbo u need the blow off-valve:twothumbs..... Is there a price range for these yet?

i think yall got the groups pretty much set, just kinda be more specific of what will be needed that is not in each level to support that specific level. when will these be up for sale and what are the prices going to range from?

The final packages (and pricing) will be determined from what we learn in this thread...I just did not want to presume I had it all nailed, then go to market with configurations that didn't suit the needs, necessitating immediate revisions. This way, we sell what YOU all want!

what are we looking at for hp and torque

Up to stage 4 would be good maybe add the injectors with it.

Consider the tune as an option by its self?

watching

would Stage 2 be able to be made to work on the 2.4?

I would be interested in a Level 1 or Level 2 kit. Possibly the sheet metal intake separately down the road as well. Tuner kit FTW! :twothumbs

would Stage 2 be able to be made to work on the 2.4?
I am presuming you mean Level II...yes, actually, these systems will also fit 2.2 and 2.4 cars with a bit of reshuffling of components in the engine bay.

i like system 4 but i have no idea whats goin on with turbos...

I'd love to do this Bill. And the reality gets closer every day. Have you seen the work that Vince at Trifecta is doing with the L61 ECM's?

My vote is for the full system. All or nothing.

you should have the piping options for redlines... we have abit more room to play with but we also have a diffrent way the coldside pipe would be routed!

When you guys get the kit with the 400 whp, 2000 rpm-8200 rpm turbo, let me know. I'll buy!!! :twothumbs

If you could make this simple for a conversion onto a 2.4 I would love lv 4 or 5!

I could really see a variation of Level II coming to think of it. This would be perfect for my desires.

Turbo
Turbo manifold
Turbo oil line system
Turbo exhaust outlet housing
MAF Bung (stainless or regular steel)

Are the Super 20G's internally gated or external by the way? Just curious.

For F#@%$ sake please make sure the tunes are good.

I think level 3 with the pcm calibration would be the most popular. Base the tune off of someone using the stock Intake manifold.

As it stands right now there would be a large price increase from Level 3 to Level 4 because of the cost of the intake manifold. Correct?

I'd love to do this Bill. And the reality gets closer every day. Have you seen the work that Vince at Trifecta is doing with the L61 ECM's?

My vote is for the full system. All or nothing.
Hey Geoff! Yes, great to see the new options emerging for L61. I'd love to see you finally reach your goals!

you should have the piping options for redlines... we have abit more room to play with but we also have a diffrent way the coldside pipe would be routed!
This may in fact be do-able...once we get the Cobalt release done, we'll troll for an Ion to come to our facility for a look. Later this year perhaps.

If you could make this simple for a conversion onto a 2.4 I would love lv 4 or 5!
Due to engine compartment layout differences vs. the 2.0, the 2.2/2.4 owners do face some additional effort to work with this setup. We can address this in greater detail once the 2.0 release is complete.

Level V . All or nothing for me. I hate hunting things and that I didn't know I needed.

I could really see a variation of Level II coming to think of it. This would be perfect for my desires.

Turbo
Turbo manifold
Turbo oil line system
Turbo exhaust outlet housing
MAF Bung (stainless or regular steel)

Are the Super 20G's internally gated or external by the way? Just curious.
You may not be well served by the turbo exhaust outlet housing on its own...it's not compatible with stock-type downpipes, and requires its own unique downpipe. But it's a downpipe you may well be able to make yourself if you are a fab-savvy type!

We have no immediate plans to offer the MAF mounting flanges...but if the market dictates, we may! An interesting request.

Super 20G is internally wastegated for OEM durability and outstanding affordability. We've used this internal wastegate system on everything from low nine-seond FWD cars to eight-second streetbikes...with stellar success!

I think level 3 with the pcm calibration would be the most popular. Base the tune off of someone using the stock Intake manifold.

As it stands right now there would be a large price increase from Level 3 to Level 4 because of the cost of the intake manifold. Correct?
Correct. And there is one significant aspect that really offsets the cost of the StreetRace intake manifold...in using one, you gain the ability to sell off your ENTIRE supercharger system, including:

Supercharger
Intake manifold w/integral intercooler
Intercooler core, pump, hoses
Belt drive system complete

We've had our beta tester people sell the above 'kit' for $1200 to enthusiastic Ecotec owners in Cobalts, Cavaliers, Ions...you name it, its a big potential market! That is a serious chunk of money to help defray the TurboSystem purchase.


Plus, you gain the following additional advantages:

Lighter weight (all that stuff is HEAVY!)
Superior airflow and cylinder-to-cylinder distribution (the stock intake setup sufffers badly in this aspect)
Easier underhood servicing (there's SO much more room with that big chunk removed from the front of the engine!)
Ability to employ PortFueler for mega-high HP combined with good street manners and predictable, consistent tuning
Outstanding underhood presence (sure, the stock SC looks good, but our manifold is a bit of TIG-welded CNC-billet artwork!)
Better radiator performance, cooler operation (removing the stock IC core really enhances radiator airflow, even improving AC efficiency!)

subscribed!!! interested in the level IV

Up to stage 4 would be good maybe add the injectors with it.

Consider the tune as an option by its self?

agree 100%

Glad you 2.0 guys finally get a complete kit. Even tho im a 2.2L, from my previous purchase through hahn i say all or nothing. Great company bill, thanks for my kit :) runs like a charm!

for me personally i'd like to have the whole kit-n-kaboodle with the Super 20G turbo. so i'm saying Level V, i like the idea of getting a complete kit to where all i have to do is swap it over from supercharged to turbocharged. my goal is to get to as close as possible to the 400whp safely on stock internals.

You may not be well served by the turbo exhaust outlet housing on its own...it's not compatible with stock-type downpipes, and requires its own unique downpipe. But it's a downpipe you may well be able to make yourself if you are a fab-savvy type!

We have no immediate plans to offer the MAF mounting flanges...but if the market dictates, we may! An interesting request.

Super 20G is internally wastegated for OEM durability and outstanding affordability. We've used this internal wastegate system on everything from low nine-seond FWD cars to eight-second streetbikes...with stellar success!

I can weld and fab like a mofo! I love doing it and have fabricated my whole turbo kit and exhaust system on my Integra, so the downpipe is easy days if I have the outlet part. :twothumbs

MAF bung availability FTW! If not, I know where I can score one easily anyhow.

In comparison, how fast will the Super 20G spool compared to my Integra's old Small 16G or it's new EVO III 16G? I get full spool at or just a hair below 3500rpms. Thanks again.

just out of curiosity, if the intake manifold sells well do you think we could get a price drop or maybe a group buy?

subscribed definitely interested in the full set up dont think i will get the sstc now if we can be reasonable with the price

just out of curiosity, if the intake manifold sells well do you think we could get a price drop or maybe a group buy?

How much is the intake manifold as we speak anyhow?

intake mani is bad f'n ass. that is all.

and Bill glad you are taking this approach... I figured you would after our conversation the other night.
Should work out well due to the diverse amount of experience of people in the cobalt community

Level 5 FTW! A fully bolt in plug and play kit.

What numbers should we expect?

good ones lol.
well since the 20g is good to 500+hp or so... should be in the high 300's (properly tuned of course) also depends on how hard you want to push the car.

oh yeah 2k, the 20g's are internally gated

What can we push on a stock engine? I know Paul(?) is pushing 411whp on stock engine but sounds risky to me. Where could I safely push with just ARP studs and headgasket (do we even need to change our headgasket?). Bill Hahn just stopped me from selling my cobalt lol.

I think level 3 with the pcm calibration would be the most popular. Base the tune off of someone using the stock Intake manifold.

As it stands right now there would be a large price increase from Level 3 to Level 4 because of the cost of the intake manifold. Correct?



Correct. And there is one significant aspect that really offsets the cost of the StreetRace intake manifold...in using one, you gain the ability to sell off your ENTIRE supercharger system, including:

Supercharger
Intake manifold w/integral intercooler
Intercooler core, pump, hoses
Belt drive system complete

We've had our beta tester people sell the above 'kit' for $1200 to enthusiastic Ecotec owners in Cobalts, Cavaliers, Ions...you name it, its a big potential market! That is a serious chunk of money to help defray the TurboSystem purchase.


Plus, you gain the following additional advantages:

Lighter weight (all that stuff is HEAVY!)
Superior airflow and cylinder-to-cylinder distribution (the stock intake setup sufffers badly in this aspect)
Easier underhood servicing (there's SO much more room with that big chunk removed from the front of the engine!)
Ability to employ PortFueler for mega-high HP combined with good street manners and predictable, consistent tuning
Outstanding underhood presence (sure, the stock SC looks good, but our manifold is a bit of TIG-welded CNC-billet artwork!)
Better radiator performance, cooler operation (removing the stock IC core really enhances radiator airflow, even improving AC efficiency!)


That maybe have been true in past. However, with all the new FI options for the LSJ becoming available the demand for our old parts has drastically declined. People are now selling those pieces for half of what you said. If they can sell them.

I should know. I just bought a IM for nothing.

And check out this ebay auction.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=150234577167&rd=1

That is a Brand New IM and SC and it only demanded $612 in bids.

If I were to buy a turbo kit from you I wouldn't want to add $1000 to the cost just for the intake manifold. Instead, I would gut the stock unit and call it a day.

But keep up the good work. I wish you were around a year ago before I bought my car because I would have bought a used LSJ and purchased one of your kits.

stock engine should handle 350whp fine. I've been over that for the last few months, put on 7k miles and no issues with the motor itself... it even survived a few seconds at 30psi accidently lol.
stock headgasket is an MLS anyway, so it's not bad... issue really is with the stock head bolts, which so far, seem to be holding just fine for me.

^^350whp sounds good enough to mee! Thanks alot for the info. Anything else to consider? Gonna do the headbolts just for my piece of mind.

P.S. Definitely stage V for me

I would be interested in stage 5 depending on price. If this is all bolt on, then all I would need to worry about is labor.

Could we get a better price if we buy a turbo kit plus the catback exhaust.

Could we get a better price if we buy a turbo kit plus the catback exhaust.
Sure thing...the more the merrier!

level 5 and pricing...

Bump for my spool times comparison question!

In comparison, how fast will the Super 20G spool compared to my Integra's old Small 16G or it's new EVO III 16G? I get full spool at or just a hair below 3500rpms. Thanks again.

Full boost will be available in the low-to-mid 3000 RPM range. This is the primary reason our Super 20G has enjoyed such popularity in other applications...its ability to support up to 500 engine HP while still maintaining excellent street manners and usable power is much appreciated by its owners! Many is the story of people taking less sophisticated, laggier turbos off in favor of Super 20G.

Bill, I have a question that may or may not have been addressed. After the loss of my cobalt i've been removed from the market for a turbo kit, but i was a cobalt ss ownner none the less.
For the do-it-yourselfer, oil changes were a pain in the butt. how does the street race manifold affect acessibility to the oil filter?

On a side note:
I'm contemplating buying a used '06 Cobalt SS S/C to fill the void in my heart (my first ever brand new car - stolen :( ) if this kit is as effective as i hope it will be, because i have no intention of doing pulley changes this time around. As someone said earlier in the thread "All or Nothing"

Bill, I have a question that may or may not have been addressed. After the loss of my cobalt i've been removed from the market for a turbo kit, but i was a cobalt ss ownner none the less.
For the do-it-yourselfer, oil changes were a pain in the butt. how does the street race manifold affect acessibility to the oil filter?

On a side note:
I'm contemplating buying a used '06 Cobalt SS S/C to fill the void in my heart (my first ever brand new car - stolen :( ) if this kit is as effective as i hope it will be, because i have no intention of doing pulley changes this time around. As someone said earlier in the thread "All or Nothing"
Good question! As we've been playing with hi-powered Ecotecs since 2002, we are no strangers to oil filter chores on these amazing little mills. I laugh when I think of how many filters we've gone through in the years since...it's got to be over a hundred by now, as I am a big fan of fresh, clean oil!

We specifically engineered the StreetRace manifold to enable reasonable oil filter access. Fact is, it's actually much improved over the stock SC and manifold. Thanks for asking, that's a feature I'd not touted just yet :)!

Yes sir, get that SS/SC, and take FULL advantage of this outstanding LSJ engine with one of our TurboSystems!

with all hthe r&d you did i guess no stone was left unturned. i'm very much considering it. they're selling for only like 11K on the east coast.

I would definatly do this if the pricing was reasonable, I most likey would do option III!

Here's the things

Will it fit to stock location exhaust
Will pistons handle
Will clutch handle
Will the Axles handle
How is the tune and what size injectors are we gettin 79s, what about the fuel pump

I seriously plan to get the Level 5 if it's affordable. I just want to know what im gettin myself into...

^^ ya im down for lvl five...give us a price!! gotta start saving but i gotta know how much i gota save lol

^^ditto to all the above, where's the price.

Product sounds awesome Hahn. :twothumbs:

Full boost will be available in the low-to-mid 3000 RPM range. This is the primary reason our Super 20G has enjoyed such popularity in other applications...its ability to support up to 500 engine HP while still maintaining excellent street manners and usable power is much appreciated by its owners! Many is the story of people taking less sophisticated, laggier turbos off in favor of Super 20G.

This is what I wanted to hear. I'll be on stand-by for the price release. :twothumbs

Pricing!!!???!!?!?

Well then!

Seems like we are pretty in line with what everyone would like to see insofar as equipment levels. I will do some minor tweaking based on the suggestions here...thanks very much to everyone for the input!

I will now proceed to the much-awaited pricing determination phase. We'll have this info available later this week/weekend.

In the meantime, please feel free to add more commentary...I appreciate the feedback!:cssNET:

what would be the benefits of this kit over the zzp twincharge kit?

umm, twin charging = crap lol... but seriously it's a waste, such a PITA to get it to function right.. .either do one or the other... Straight turbo (for most power) or super charge it (better for just cruising around, decent power)

I say to scratch levels 1 & 3.

2, 4, & 5 seem best fit. Or you could offer 2 & 4; with the OPTION to have the Inj & Tune included for a little extra.

BUT, I think these are the things that should be offered separately.

Turbo Manifold
Street Race Intake Manifold

I know a lot of the other things (Turbo, FMIC, Blow-Off) are already offered seperately on your site. I believe that these 2 things are the ONLY things you should worry about providing for the DIY'ers.

I can't WAIT to here the Numbers & Pricing! I need to start saving!

i would like it free please. lmao

cant wait to see #'s and price i am starting saving already. thank god i have graduation coming up that should account for atleast half of it!!!

what kind of supporting mods are we gonna need for this? 3" cat-back, tranny/motor mounts, heavier clutch. what else?

I think all 5 levels are dead on! Don't touch them!

I'm considering your level 5 kit, just have to see the pricing.

Oh and get rid of my brand new TVS HTV1320. Any takers? :)

I think all 5 levels are dead on! Don't touch them!

I'm considering your level 5 kit, just have to see the pricing.

Oh and get rid of my brand new TVS HTV1320. Any takers? :)

i was thinking level 5 to. what kind of supporting mods will we need?

Ride the clutch out til it goes, then upgrade.

Stage 2 axles, but could still get away with stockers.

3" catback for sure, engine/trans mounts would be good but not needed.

ya i am not really worried about the axles. and the clutch i guess i will just put some extra money away and ride this one out. any reccomendations for a good 3" exhaust. i am going to have to sell my gm performance one

My guess is around $4500 with the intake manifold. Considering their jbody ecotec turbo kit is $3495-$3695 without an intake manifold.

I'd like to see a lower price, $4k with everything. Still high for most, but this will be a quality kit.

I have the Hahn 3" catback.

There is a slight fitment issue, wants to hang offcenter to the left, in your bumper cutout. It also slightly rattles on the axle. Sucks after paying that much, but I still love it.

i was just looking at that. i think i will be ordering this afternoon. hows it sound?>

Deep, Smooth, Tight, Loud. :lol:

Subscribed. Awaiting pricing information.

Turboeco, how much are you willing to let that TVS go for and do you already have it? PM me as I'm still in the balance on my decision as what to do.

Well then!

Seems like we are pretty in line with what everyone would like to see insofar as equipment levels. I will do some minor tweaking based on the suggestions here...thanks very much to everyone for the input!

I will now proceed to the much-awaited pricing determination phase. We'll have this info available later this week/weekend.

In the meantime, please feel free to add more commentary...I appreciate the feedback!:cssNET:

Oooooooooooooooooh so close. I really thought after my last post I'd get on here and read a price. I was reading this post and even though I didn't see any numbers I still held out hope till I read the last word that there would be a price in the post somewhere...lol.

I can only imagine how bad I'll get harassed by the police with a 3inch exhaust.

I can only imagine how bad I'll get harassed by the police with a 3inch exhaust.

well if you get this turbo kit they will have a hard time catching you lmao. j/k kids dont try that at home

My guess is around $4500 with the intake manifold. Considering their jbody ecotec turbo kit is $3495-$3695 without an intake manifold.

I'd like to see a lower price, $4k with everything. Still high for most, but this will be a quality kit.

I have the Hahn 3" catback.

There is a slight fitment issue, wants to hang offcenter to the left, in your bumper cutout. It also slightly rattles on the axle. Sucks after paying that much, but I still love it.

You should be able to adjust the system to not contact the axle via the center slipjoint. We've always been able to achieve clearance in this region, even with the somewhat inconsistent builds GM gives us under the car!

Aligning it in the bumper opening can also be achived via some adjustment.

Thanks for loving it!

bump for pricing????

We need the pricing...

What injectors are we getting?

any ballpark figure yet bill im saving every extra dollar

any ballpark figure yet bill im saving every extra dollar
How do folks feel about this ballpark:

$4000 to $4500 for Level 5...the Complete Solution. That's just a ballpark, it's no guarantee of actual pricing, but let's just say I am looking at y'alls 'comfort level'.

I must emphasize that while we are about to divulge actual power numbers (on the Dyno today!), this system is built with all The Good Stuff:


Super 20G Turbo
3" Quick-Release band clamp style exhaust housing and downpipe
Huge FMIC...same as on Paul's and Joe's monsters
BIG charge air piping and air intake system
StreetRace Sheetmetal Intake Manifold
Billet blow-off valve

All of these items are considered optional upgrades on our garden-variety turbosystems, because those systems are primarily intended for stock engines that aren't well-suited to anything over 300 HP. In the case of LSJ, we made all of these niceties Standard, for we know it's going to be a much more powerful setup due to the engine's inherent capabilities.

So, this system is going to breathe VERY well, and airflow = HP. We are already well over 300 WHP at very moderate boost levels. News at 11!

In the meantime, how's that price range seem?

What injectors are we getting?

60lb/hr will be the standard offering. We may offer larger ones if need dictates...if course, PortFueler will be the hot ticket for the mega HP setups.

nice very interested to see how the 20g setup does...
billet BOV... I needs one lol

Can't wait to hear the results and this may seal the deal for me. The price seems fair for the full out kit. Tuner kit guestimate would be cool too. Level 1 with the downpipe or Level 2 I guess would be great for a price guestimate!

4-4.5 seems like a fair price, can't wait I'm saving every penny.

p.s. please try to keep it closer to 4 if you can.

I stage 5 is that much I wounder what stage 2 will be?

^^ less

Duhh..... Thank you captin Obvious :rolleyes:

:lol:your welcome, glad i could be of service.

4k, I'll take one!

Great day on the dyno. Told you there's be news at 11 (it's 11:14 here now!)

I'll get more detail up here Sunday...I'm calling it a night!

For now, the WHP and Wtrq numbers added up to 706. A special prize to whoever guesses how much of each!

my guess 409hp 297tq

356/350.... or 366/340 those would be my gueses with that turbo

357/349

haha made my guess before I saw my email lol....

358whp and 348wtrq is my guess! Now I can't wait to see dyno! Oh the speculation!

372whp 334wtrq ha ha billy i am closer i know it lol

372whp 334wtrq ha ha billy i am closer i know it lol

If you're closer, I'll have someone come and take your pulley off one day while nobody is looking! Let' see who's laughing then. We could also play hide the Carbon Fiber trunk game until I get back! Don't make me go there! :lol:

411/295

depending on how much i think i might get the stage 3 kit right away. once prices are out, how long till kits are available

does the piping come painted to match or do i do that myself?

No Sunday update! I feel so used for staying up all night over here in the desert! :lol:

I know how you feel billy

Crikey! Sorry for that, gentlemen...Sunday got away from me. I will post up the dyno info later today.

To end the suspense for the moment...the numbers were:

360 WHP (424 Engine HP)
346 WTrq (407 Engine Torque)

produced at 22 PSI boost on 93 octane.

2K5SS/SC? had the closest guess. Good job!

The dyno graphs will show more detail about curve shape and the excellent midrange torque developed by the Super 20G. More to come!

$4000.............or less ofcourse. :lol:

Watching

Nice looking #'s Bill. Have you been in touch w/ Matt @ Tune Time Performance lately? I'd like to see him start carrying your components for turbo systems...

Damit billy was right shit i will never hear the end of this nice number Bill

Crikey! Sorry for that, gentlemen...Sunday got away from me. I will post up the dyno info later today.

To end the suspense for the moment...the numbers were:

360 WHP (424 Engine HP)
346 WTrq (407 Engine Torque)

produced at 22 PSI boost on 93 octane.

2K5SS/SC? had the closest guess. Good job!

The dyno graphs will show more detail about curve shape and the excellent midrange torque developed by the Super 20G. More to come!

WOOT! Damn nice numbers! Yes, I was not that far off at all! I think this has sold me and pointed to the path which I will take! I can't wait to see the graph!

bigboy, just because I'm so happy about the numbers I won't play remove the pulley or hide the CF trunk until I get back. However, I pwn you right now! :lol:

:thumb: i cant wait i gotta start saving tho should be well worth it

What kind of dyno are you guys running. I thought the numbers would be a bit higher at that boost level.

What kind of dyno are you guys running. I thought the numbers would be a bit higher at that boost level.
Dynojet 224xlc :twothumbs

Actually...360/346 rank as the best numbers we've ever seen for a Super 20G on pure pump gas, 2.0 liter engine. And that's a turbo boasting quite a pedigree...we've placed thousands of them in the field, so it's had a real chance to develop a history to compare to. Keep in mind...this lil' ol LSJ is now making 5% more power than a mighty LS2 V8, but still has a broad enough powerband to be usable...that's nothing to sneeze at!

You may be comparing it with a larger turbo that will provide more HP per PSI of boost, but less low-RPM power:


Paul's HiFi 60-1 T3/T04e that puts down 411 WHP/358 Wtrq
Joe's GT35R Cobalt that puts down 440 WHP on pump gas


We chose S20G for its very pleasing all-around performance, which we feel is a much more effective match for the stock LSJ in daily usage. As a point of comparison, dig the torque...only 12 ft/lbs less than Paul's car made at 50 more HP!

Super 20G is legendary in the DSM and SRT crowds for bringing big numbers, but not at the loss of low-RPM streetability. Many is the story of T3-T4 users who were lured by the spell of high HP, but then disappointed by a narrow powerband...who then chucked the big ol' T3-T4 in favor of a S20G replacement. HP freaks will always prefer the larger turbo for its dyno performances, but we find that the greater cross-section of our buyers are more interested in real-world usability.

But never fear...with some octane and higher boost, Super 20G also stands ready to rocket past 400 WHP and push street-weight cars deep into the 11 second range...why, we've even had a super-lightweight Neon run hi NINES on one, and our streetbikes into the SEVENS @ over 190 MPH!

Dynojet 224xlc :twothumbs

Actually...those rank as the best we've ever seen for a Super 20G on pure pump gas, 2.0 liter engine. You may be comparing it with a higher-flowing turbo that will provide more HP per PSI of boost, but less low-RPM power:


Paul's HiFi 60-1 T3/T04e that puts down 411 WHP/358 Wtrq
Joe's GT35R Cobalt that puts down 440 WHP on pump gas


We chose S20G for its very pleasing all-around performance, which we feel is a much more effective match for the stock LSJ in daily usage. As a point of comparison, dig the torque...only 12 ft/lbs less than Paul's car made at 50 more HP!

Super 20G is legendary in the DSM and SRT crowds for bringing big numbers, but not at the loss of low-RPM streetability. Many is the story of T3-T4 users who were lured by the spell of high HP, but then disappointed by a narrow powerband...who then chucked the big ol' T3-T4 in favor of a S20G replacement. HP freaks will always prefer the larger turbo for its dyno performances, but we find that the greater cross-section of our buyers are more interested in real-world usability.

But never fear...with some octane and higher boost, Super 20G also stands ready to rocket past 400 WHP and push street-weight cars deep into the 11 second range...why, we've even had a super-lightweight Neon run hi NINES on one, and our streetbikes into the SEVENS @ over 190 MPH!


Very true! Dyno sheet now please! :cssNET:

i want prices already

It's only fair I warn you folks...I am going to sound proud, boastful even, about the following results. I can't help it! If you can't stand the idea of removing supercharging from your car, and just detest this movement towards turbos, please...read no farther. If you decide to do so anyway, well...I warned you, don't hate on me for what I've done!

Special thanks to Tyler Beckman for offering up his '05 SS for hybridization, and to Paul for excellent tuning advice.


OK, first the 'conservative' graph:

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k297/ecoboost/BeckmanS20G20SS-TC15PSI.jpg

This occurred at 15 PSI boost. Think of what the stock blowers put down at 15 PSI, then check this out. And this is with IAT2's of, ohh...85 degrees!

LOOK at that FAT torque curve. Hell, it's not even a curve...it's a plateau! Think of that at full throttle upshifts, as the car drops to 4000-ish RPM with every shift. That's the kind of torque that really yanks a car forward, huge and long and without giving up. And as it finally begins to trail off ever so slightly at hi RPM, the HP curve steps right in and finishes the job. That, my friends, is about as perfect a turbo match as you are ever going to see.


Then we got a bit more daring, but still very safe, by engaging the Greddy boost controller Tyler had just installed:

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k297/ecoboost/BeckmanS20G20SS-TC22PSI.jpg

This with 22 PSI boost.. The torque peak is aggressive...keep in mind, both of these graphs are third gear WOT pulls from 2000RPM, so the turbo is not spooled at all, and as such, it comes on hard at 4000 RPM. On the street, you'd see full boost hundreds of RPM earlier, and there'd also be the effect of pre-spooling from the previous gear.

On this run, I lifted a bit at 6200, then got out of it at 6500, for I saw 20+ PSI boost for the first time, and I didn't want to beat up Tyler's 'Balt! We did a couple successive runs with less aggressive gain settings on the boost controller, all the way to 7000 RPM, to further clean up the fuel and timing curves, but as they were 'only' in the mid 350's, I didn't post them up.

Scan data at this power level indicated a happy knock retard, IDC's in the 89% range, and a rather uneventful 90 degree IAT2. Overall, optimization. Sure, we could push the 60lb injectors a but harder, but why? PortFueler awaits in the wings for more fun once Tyler gets ahold of everything he's got here. And he won't rest until he's matched or surpassed the performance of our 11.8 second street-tired SRT-4. And...if he takes coaching well, by God, he just may do it! He's going to run the same boost setup, using the Greddy remote-control on the steering wheel to engage hi boost in 2nd gear, the same turbo, the same tuner, the same fuel system...

--------------------------

So I had a bud email me today and ask me what I think of the newer blower options coming out for this car, and how they stack up against our TurboSystem...

I sent him these two graphs and a reply that said: "When they can do THIS, and do it with better fuel mileage than stock, selectable power levels from the drivers seat, inlet temps under 100* F, AND also enable you to re-sell a complete take-off blower, intake manifold, belt drive, and intercooler system…well, THEN I’ll be impressed."

Do something like this for the 2.4, we know you can push them more :D

Nice work Bill, I must say I want it now. I'm saving every penny I have for this system. Level V or bust.

me too, i am getting closer to sold on this, still thinkin maybe TVS but being that i'm not already very modified, i think the turbo will be more economical.

Hey Bill,

How does the Red Cobalt fare against the Blue one?

I'd be interested to see 1/4 mile numbers of each.

After seeing those graphs I think I have to go and change my boxers! Holy torque curve or lack there of! :lol: I'm very impressed and would have liked to see that pull without a let off at 6200. I bet 370-375 would have been made easily! WOW, great job!

Prices please, and what was the special surprise for being the close for the guestimate?

Well, my day has been made. :lol: I will go frolic in the desert sand and heat happily now! ;)

Nice fuggin numbers!!! Def very impressed!

wow very impressive. Im thinking the turbo over the TVS

yeah i think for me I'd have to do so many more mods to run the TVS it would be $$$$.

very nice there Bill. I wish I had talked to you before I went balls out on my car, but I still have almost the same boost curve and low engine speed response. That tq curve is sweet though. Now I just need a 2-stage boost controller so I can get traction in 1st and 2nd and it's on lol.

very nice there Bill. I wish I had talked to you before I went balls out on my car, but I still have almost the same boost curve and low engine speed response. That tq curve is sweet though. Now I just need a 2-stage boost controller so I can get traction in 1st and 2nd and it's on lol.

Paul, I think I found my new toy that I'm going to buy! You and Bill are my inspirations! ;)

very nice man, I was hoping you'd go this route.
Car is going to be a beast man, you have no idea. add those numbers up with meth injection and a little more advanced timing curve and you'll be seeing an easy 370whp on pump gas. I need to get my car back on the dyno with the new tune in it to see what it looks like without those horrid lean spikes. too bad the dyno was f'd up the last time out due to trix's fire lol.

what is the max hp/tq our cars can handle stock? with 60 lbers of course lol...

I'd say in the 370whp TQ350ish range will be pretty much maxing out the injectors

very nice man, I was hoping you'd go this route.
Car is going to be a beast man, you have no idea. add those numbers up with meth injection and a little more advanced timing curve and you'll be seeing an easy 370whp on pump gas. I need to get my car back on the dyno with the new tune in it to see what it looks like without those horrid lean spikes. too bad the dyno was f'd up the last time out due to trix's fire lol.

Oh, I have an idea of what it'll be like. Take my Integra when it was at 15psi, add a 7psi more oh shit factor, and then realize tracton is completely gone for 3rd gear as well! Or blow by the SRT-4 with my tires spinning that did it to me awhile back! :lol:

Yeah, I think I might use the factory IM for a start though so my numbers might not be as high. I have 3 cars lined up though as soon as I get back for installs and tuning so the Hahn IM should be in the works soon there after.

holy shit is all i have to say. and i only live an hour away from hahns shop.
let the penny pinching begin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 It's level V or bust my friends

Oh, I have an idea of what it'll be like. Take my Integra when it was at 15psi, add a 7psi more oh shit factor, and then realize tracton is completely gone for 3rd gear as well! Or blow by the SRT-4 with my tires spinning that did it to me awhile back! :lol:

Yeah, I think I might use the factory IM for a start though so my numbers might not be as high. I have 3 cars lined up though as soon as I get back for installs and tuning so the Hahn IM should be in the works soon there after.

I still made over 350whp with the stock intake mani and my old turbo, so I don't see why you're numbers would be only a little lower.
turbo cobalts are fun lol. drive like a reg 4 banger below 2k rpm's, great fuel economy, and crazy Wow factor when you hammer the go pedal.
Now just patiently awaiting the new hahn BOV to get here, and that's one issue fixed that I don't have to worry about anymore.

paul whats it feel like when u just slam it in that thing

umm if I'm not on a level smooth road.... its damn scary lol. But the thing hauls some serious ass. now if I can just make it RWD.............

umm if I'm not on a level smooth road.... its damn scary lol. But the thing hauls some serious ass. now if I can just make it RWD.............

ha ya. looking at vic. red ss's project its a bitch

I still made over 350whp with the stock intake mani and my old turbo, so I don't see why you're numbers would be only a little lower.
turbo cobalts are fun lol. drive like a reg 4 banger below 2k rpm's, great fuel economy, and crazy Wow factor when you hammer the go pedal.
Now just patiently awaiting the new hahn BOV to get here, and that's one issue fixed that I don't have to worry about anymore.

That 350whp you speak of was my ultimate goal since day one anyhow, so that would be perfectly fine with me. I can't wait to get my Cobalt turbo'd since I should have done it a long time ago, but it's probably better I learned the tricks with my Integra first. Hopefully my patience and knowledge attained pays off with some nice parts from Hahn.

Oh, and I expect a full review on the BOV! :twothumbs

Got the driving report back from Tyler...he's out having fun with the car now at the base 15 PSI, 320 WHP boost level.

He reports "that turbo kit made so many improvements to the car its crazy." To name a few:


Much more powerful (naturally!)
Better fuel mileage
Easier to launch
Reduced torque steer
IAT2 after a long haul to 6000 RPM in 4th gear is now 77 degrees...used to be 175-200 with the S/C and 2.8 pulley (he also adds that he tried a 2.6 pulley at one point in the car's previous SC life and was just TERRIFIED of the IAT2 that resulted in!)
Overall, a very happy convert! :cssNET:

Got the driving report back from Tyler...he's out having fun with the car now at the base 15 PSI, 320 WHP boost level.

He reports "that turbo kit made so many improvements to the car its crazy." To name a few:


Much more powerful (naturally!)
Better fuel mileage
Easier to launch
Reduced torque steer
IAT2 after a long haul to 6000 RPM in 4th gear is now 77 degrees...used to be 175-200 with the S/C and 2.8 pulley (he also adds that he tried a 2.6 pulley at one point in the car's previous SC life and was just TERRIFIED of the IAT2 that resulted in!)
Overall, a very happy convert! :cssNET:

Nice! Why did he go back down to 15psi though? To get used to it? :lol: Great to hear, now the question is a little pricing soon? :cssNET:

Nice! Why did he go back down to 15psi though? To get used to it? :lol: Great to hear, now the question is a little pricing soon? :cssNET:
Well, you see, that's one of the great aspects of going turbo...multiple selectable boost levels from the driver's seat!

Even at 'only' 15 PSI, it's such a leap forward in the car's performance from its previous SC iteration (about 70 WHP more!) that yes, he wants to get to know this power level first, then turn it up incrementally. Of course, as a Beta car, he's also making sure the car does everything right at every power level, not just on 'kill'.

We'll ease into the additional reserve power as needed and/or desired. There may be a clutch upgrade involved to really enable the higher boost...the torquemonster is pressing the stock clutch to a degree!

We are working feverishly on website and pricing as I type. I'd say another day or two and we'll launch!

thats amazing...

so with those low IAT2 temperatures would it be safe to say that one could push the stock internals a little farther, specifically the pistons being rated for ~350hp???

Well, you see, that's one of the great aspects of going turbo...multiple selectable boost levels from the driver's seat!

Even at 'only' 15 PSI, it's such a leap forward in the car's performance from its previous SC iteration (about 70 WHP more!) that yes, he wants to get to know this power level first, then turn it up incrementally. Of course, as a Beta car, he's also making sure the car does everything right at every power level, not just on 'kill'.

We'll ease into the additional reserve power as needed and/or desired. There may be a clutch upgrade involved to really enable the higher boost...the torquemonster is pressing the stock clutch to a degree!

We are working feverishly on website and pricing as I type. I'd say another day or two and we'll launch!

Very true. I completely forgot he is on the stock clutch as well. I'm sure it won't last long though at those power levels. ;)

I can't wait to get my hands on my own 20G now. I think this definitelt sealed the deal. It wasn't the overall numbers that did it because I expected those, it was the power band and torque curve that sold me. That is exactly what I've been aiming for and desiring for my Cobalt. Great work once again! :twothumbs

So what was the surprise by the way for being the closest? Is it still a surprise?

thats amazing...

so with those low IAT2 temperatures would it be safe to say that one could push the stock internals a little farther, specifically the pistons being rated for ~350hp???
Without a doubt, the lowered IAT's significantly hedge one's bet insofar as higher power levels without spark knock problems, and knock (detonation) is what takes pistons out.

So, to answer your question, yes...we can expect more power, safely, and cars like this one and Paul's help prove that point. This one's running 375-425 engine HP, and Paul's been up to about 475 engine HP. In both cases, the engines themselves are stock.

The LSJ is a very magnificient engine once it's not being force-fed by a furnace!

Uhm Pricing??

Very true. I completely forgot he is on the stock clutch as well. I'm sure it won't last long though at those power levels. ;)

I can't wait to get my hands on my own 20G now. I think this definitelt sealed the deal. It wasn't the overall numbers that did it because I expected those, it was the power band and torque curve that sold me. That is exactly what I've been aiming for and desiring for my Cobalt. Great work once again! :twothumbs

So what was the surprise by the way for being the closest? Is it still a surprise?
Haha, I was hoping to only pay out if someone guessed right on, but that's almost impossible. Your guess was within less than 1%, so that's close enough!

As your reward, I will hook you up with a discount on a system. Once we start talking turkey, remind me and I'll hook you up. I can't promise hundreds of $$ off, but if nothing else, you'll be able to have a decent dinner with the significant other using the savings!

Uhm Pricing??
see posts #74 and #129

Haha, I was hoping to only pay out if someone guessed right on, but that's almost impossible. Your guess was within less than 1%, so that's close enough!

As your reward, I will hook you up with a discount on a system. Once we start talking turkey, remind me and I'll hook you up. I can't promise hundreds of $$ off, but if nothing else, you'll be able to have a decent dinner with the significant other using the savings!


see posts #74 and #129

Sounds good. I'll be on standby until then, and looking foward to updates as they come along. Once again thanks for all the hard work, and a special thanks to the tester for putting his car on the line. :)

Sounds good. I'll be on standby until then, and looking foward to updates as they come along. Once again thanks for all the hard work, and a special thanks to the tester for putting his car on the line for it. :)
You are most welcome. Thank you too for the support and interest.

How would the intercooler hold up during road-race conditions at the track (up to 1 hr races)? Would I have problems with heat-soak using your level 5 setup? Would I need to turn down the boost pressures for track days (non-drag racing)?

If I buy your cat-back exhaust, would the piping for the supercharged cat-back bolt-up with the header and down-pipe from the turbo configuration?
Thanks
Eric

i cant wait to see the final product at my door keep the updates coming bill !!

How would the intercooler hold up during road-race conditions at the track (up to 1 hr races)? Would I have problems with heat-soak using your level 5 setup? Would I need to turn down the boost pressures for track days (non-drag racing)?

If I buy your cat-back exhaust, would the piping for the supercharged cat-back bolt-up with the header and down-pipe from the turbo configuration?
Thanks
Eric
The intercooler is BIG. Core dimensions: 4.5" thick, 6" tall, 24" wide, for a total of 648 cubic inches of core volume.

As for setting up the car for track days: I'd say your best bet would be to equip the turbosystem with a low-pressure wastegate actuator (say 8 PSI), then turn up the boost with a boost controller until IAT's and/or coolant temps finally become a too high, or you overpower the track...whichever comes first. One positive aspect of removing the stock intercooler heat exchanger is that it frees up airflow to the radiator, so that's an improvement. I might also tune the cooling fans so they are come in harder at lower temps.

Yes, the exhaust is compatible with the turbo downpipe, and the turbo downpipe reverse compatible with all exhaust systems (3" adamantly recommended!).

hey hahn, what about us ion redlines will it be relatively simple to integrate a cobalt kit into our cars or will you release one for us too? i could be wrong but the only thing i could see being different in the kit would be the tubing?.

hey hahn, what about us ion redlines will it be relatively simple to integrate a cobalt kit into our cars or will you release one for us too? i could be wrong but the only thing i could see being different in the kit would be the tubing?.
Tubing would be different, yes, as well as air intake...there's slight differences elsewhere too, such as intercooler mounting, but I bet an enterprising type could start at Level 2 or 3 and take it from there.

So I guess you figured out why everyone is getting the lean spike at the higher RPMS.

yeah that's been taken care of finally.... thank god

and 2K, you'll hopefully have that review tomorrow or thursday, unfortunately I got damn jury duty, so I have to swing past work I guess when I get out.

once again, us redlines get left out, we will have to find ourselves some custom piping and everything $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. one day hopefully we will get somethingn to help us :)

people will help you, but someone needs to man up and give up there car for a week or so to get it done, I've been offering around here for months and no one wants to do it.....
SO SOMEONE WITH A REDLINE MAN UP AND DO WORK

yeah that's been taken care of finally.... thank god

and 2K, you'll hopefully have that review tomorrow or thursday, unfortunately I got damn jury duty, so I have to swing past work I guess when I get out.

Sounds great. I'm really interested in tuneability for the most part and how you mount. A sound clip would be great too to satisfy the "ricer" curiosity side of things. :lol:

As for the redine guys, piping should be an easy day. You guys have way more room, and piping is easy to do. Buy some mendral exhaust bends, mark and cut them to size, and if welding is necessary and you don't have a welder go to a local exhaust shop and have it done. It's not that expensive at all. Hell if someone bought the materials and provided me a redline to fit the pipes to, I'd do it for a good meal and a couple brews.

I was fairly sure of the path my SS would take ...the TVS threw a temporary wrench in though . This thread has me back in line . Awesome stuff Bill , cant wait to send some money your way :D :lol:

I wrench on to many other cars to really have time for my own plus Im building a Camaro , so I would likely go with the full deal for simplicty and my sanity . I think you touched on this a long time ago ....just to make sure , the supplied tune wont be locked correct ? I want to explore E85 at some point , couple friends turbo cars are using it to amazing sucess and corn gas pumps are plentiful around here .

does the piping come painted to match?

does the piping come painted to match?
We may offer this as an option. All of our piping is always powder-coated for great looks and durability, and our standard color has always been basic gloss black. Matches everybody, and has a clean, understated OEM-type look. But we are doing things differently with this setup...this may be one more way we can customize it!

sweet, well if your looking to gauge interest, i would be interested fo sho.

Sounds great. I'm really interested in tuneability for the most part and how you mount. A sound clip would be great too to satisfy the "ricer" curiosity side of things. :lol:

As for the redine guys, piping should be an easy day. You guys have way more room, and piping is easy to do. Buy some mendral exhaust bends, mark and cut them to size, and if welding is necessary and you don't have a welder go to a local exhaust shop and have it done. It's not that expensive at all. Hell if someone bought the materials and provided me a redline to fit the pipes to, I'd do it for a good meal and a couple brews.
All very true. Redlines also use a different MAF, similar to those found on Colorado, but that's just a matter of machining a flange to fit that's weldable to the tube.

I believe our big Cobalt front mount intercooler would fit them too, so it really is just a matter of piping. We offer a complete line of silicone hose elbows and couplers, and can even provide mandrel bends. Cut / weld / play!

sweet, well if your looking to gauge interest, i would be interested fo sho.
What's your preferred flava?

dam now i regret spending money on this car lol.... maybe i can sell all the stuff i have to get this! that would be awesome!

also bill where would u hook up a wideband to a turbo car? i never knew that . and also since your in chicago is there any price difference if i had you custom tune it instead of just sending me the usual universal tune?

Hey Bill,
When you do quotes, do you think you could give me one for a Level 2 with that fine ass sheet metal intake. I sort of like the idea of ditching the stock manifold since it's so damn restrictive. Also, what are you guys using to replace the supercharger pulley? Do you have a special idler setup? I might need one of those too if I go the sheetmetal intake manifold route. Thanks.

Hey Bill,
When you do quotes, do you think you could give me one for a Level 2 with that fine ass sheet metal intake. I sort of like the idea of ditching the stock manifold since it's so damn restrictive. Also, what are you guys using to replace the supercharger pulley? Do you have a special idler setup? I might need one of those too if I go the sheetmetal intake manifold route. Thanks.
Sure, we can work it out for you that way.

Our approach ditches the entire supercharger drive belt system and replaces it with a 2.2/2.4 style idler and belt. Super-clean and simple, and adds the complex SC drive system to the box of SC parts you'll sell to someone so they can bolt it right on their engine!

did u see my question ?

also bill where would u hook up a wideband to a turbo car? i never knew that .

also since your in chicago is there any price difference if i had you custom tune it instead of just sending me the usual universal tune?

dam now i regret spending money on this car lol.... maybe i can sell all the stuff i have to get this! that would be awesome!

also bill where would u hook up a wideband to a turbo car? i never knew that . and also since your in chicago is there any price difference if i had you custom tune it instead of just sending me the usual universal tune?
We add a bung to the housing that routes exhaust from the turbo to the downpipe. I will be offering this as another option for all you wideband fans out there!

Def we could custom tune, and def it would be more expensive than the canned tune. Would it be neccesary? Probably not, but if you'd like to spend some dyno time with the car, we could play and see what we get with your individual combo. Nothing like some quality time to really nail that tune, and you'll drive away a lot smarter about your new turbo car too..I am very talkative!

ya that may be an option, im trying to learn to tune myself and learning would be much easier if i was able to watch someone :D

i cant wait to see the final prices! lol

Sure, we can work it out for you that way.

Our approach ditches the entire supercharger drive belt system and replaces it with a 2.2/2.4 style idler and belt. Super-clean and simple, and adds the complex SC drive system to the box of SC parts you'll sell to someone so they can bolt it right on their engine!

Sounds great. I would be more than interested in the aformentioned setup. Do you happen to have a picture of the idler pulley setup?

Sounds great. I would be more than interested in the aformentioned setup. Do you happen to have a picture of the idler pulley setup?
Not per se...this will be something you source yourself, but we'll share the details of this mod with our customers. Look under the hood of any non-SC car and you'll see the setup.

bill, i would really like the piping blue to match the car. just like the joe's and pauls on the website. Thanks. Almost forgot. what gauges would you recommend we have, boost? wideband? interceptor? etc. and are you guys using hptuners?

Not per se...this will be something you source yourself, but we'll share the details of this mod with our customers. Look under the hood of any non-SC car and you'll see the setup.

Are you talking about swapping the alternator out for a 2.2 one and what not? If so, looks like I'll be gutting the blower housing I have and making a fake supercharger.

bill, i would really like the piping blue to match the car. just like the joe's and pauls on the website. Thanks. Almost forgot. what gauges would you recommend we have, boost? wideband? interceptor? etc. and are you guys using hptuners?
Sure, we can do that. A slight charge for custom color, but it's not much.

You almost don't need a boost gauge...stock's fine unless you get busy (22+ PSI). Wideband is a great investment. Interceptors are just awesome. HPTuners is good for these, we use it among others...I've spent enough on $oftware to buy a new SS-TC, lol!

Are you talking about swapping the alternator out for a 2.2 one and what not? If so, looks like I'll be gutting the blower housing I have and making a fake supercharger.
Oh gawd, don't lower yourself to that hokiness. I have a much easier path for you. Trust me on this one!

my man i am very interested in the Level 2 or 3. Please give me a quote for the kit for a 2.2!!

Sure, we can do that. A slight charge for custom color, but it's not much.

You almost don't need a boost gauge...stock's fine unless you get busy (22+ PSI). Wideband is a great investment. Interceptors are just awesome. HPTuners is good for these, we use it among others...I've spent enough on $oftware to buy a new SS-TC, lol!


Oh gawd, don't lower yourself to that hokiness. I have a much easier path for you. Trust me on this one!

It's not hokiness, it's called be cheap! :lol: I can fab an idler pulley setup or score one from an undisclosed source if necessary. I was just on your site checking the regular pricing and when I started adding stuff up, it might just be better for me to get the Level 4 kit for crying out loud. Arghhh!!!!

ok i just changed my mind about selling my car. very interested

It's not hokiness, it's called be cheap! :lol: I can fab an idler pulley setup or score one from an undisclosed source if necessary. I was just on your site checking the regular pricing and when I started adding stuff up, it might just be better for me to get the Level 4 kit for crying out loud. Arghhh!!!!
Never fear. What I will share will be affordable. But ya gotta throw down to get it :)

Never fear. What I will share will be affordable. But ya gotta throw down to get it :)

Oh, I have the money right now, so that's not really an issue. I just need to make sure I pick up a ring while I'm at it so my girlfriend doesn't hack off my boys! :lol:

Oh, I have the money right now, so that's not really an issue. I just need to make sure I pick up a ring while I'm at it so my girlfriend doesn't hack off my boys! :lol:
Hahaha, yeah, you gonna need them once you put the snail on your ride! :twothumbs

qft :lol:

Hahaha, yeah, you gonna need them once you put the snail on your ride! :twothumbs

Very true! :lol: She knows about the turbo and what I want to do, but she's sort of just avoiding my conversation with her about it because she hates all my vehicles except my Colorado because it's mostly all stock and an automatic. Something about the neck snapping and noise she hates. I just don't get it though because it makes me grin from ear to ear. :cssNET:

Hey another question. If we ran the wastegate vacuum line to the factory boost controller and then back to the wastegate do you think we could use the factory ECU to control the boost in 1st and 2nd with HPTuners just like the stock blower? Just curious if this has been thought of yet.

Did the test car have the 3 inch catback or the stock exhaust.

Test car had a 3" catback exhaust. Other than that and the turbo kit, she was all stock!

Hey another question. If we ran the wastegate vacuum line to the factory boost controller and then back to the wastegate do you think we could use the factory ECU to control the boost in 1st and 2nd with HPTuners just like the stock blower? Just curious if this has been thought of yet.
Hmm. Possible. Perhaps we could give that a go. The functionality of the wastegate vs. the stock control valve are reversed, but as the control valve is a 3-way unit (in, com, exh) there may be something there worth trying.

Hmm. Possible. Perhaps we could give that a go. The functionality of the wastegate vs. the stock control valve are reversed, but as the control valve is a 3-way unit (in, com, exh) there may be something there worth trying.

you most likely would have spiking issues saying you leave the controller in the stock postion cause of the length of tube you would need

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Bump for prices and turbo love!

i was just looking at the pictures and was wondering is this a cold air system? it looks like the intake is on the left of the motor sucking hot air? also will this fit with the dual pass system (theres an extra resovior) or is that not needed anymore

edit: im pretty sure im an idiot, the air passes through the intercooler first doesnt it

Subscribed Hence my name lolz

And yes the air passes through the air to air intercooler before it hits the intake. As far as the air filter that you see next to the motor that is what is fed in to the turbo 3'' inlet. And that can be some what hot since it will be passing through the intercooler before it enters the cylinders.

Why is it that i was under the impression that the air went from intake to turbo to intercooler to manifold.

It's really to hard to explain over this. Here is a link go read these. They will help you understand exactly how a turbo system works.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech101.html

it doesnt make sense to cool the air then compress it because its just gonna heat right back up. pressure and heat go hand in hand. so it only makes sense to pressurize it then cool it down while keeping the pressure up so you can have a nice dense air charge without the power robbing heat.

I'm really not to sure what you're trying to say, but if you click that link the first thing is a picture diagram showing you the flow and setup of a turbo system. Hopefully someone can help you out more than what i can. Sorry man

luciano, you are correct here.

1. Air gets sucked in through the filter to the turbo inlet.
2. Air gets compressed in the housing using the exhaust gases to do the work.
3. Hot compressed air comes out of the turbo and flows through the intercooler and then it becomes cool compressed air.
4. Cool compressed air goes through the throttle body, into the intake manifold, and finally into the combustion chamber.

shit, no wonder why my car isnt working right...
















































lol j/k

Your either reading it wrong or its wrong all together. i haven't seen it myself so i couldn't say for sure. i may not have a degree or an outstanding track record but i like to think myself smarter than the average bear

luciano, you are correct here.

1. Air gets sucked in through the filter to the turbo inlet.
2. Air gets compressed in the housing using the exhaust gases to do the work.
3. Hot compressed air comes out of the turbo and flows through the intercooler and then it becomes cool compressed air.
4. Cool compressed air goes through the throttle body, into the intake manifold, and finally into the combustion chamber.

Sorry but number three is wrong unless u are saying this. I'm not to sure from how you worded it what you ment.

The exhaust gasses never re enter your motor. They travel through the turbos hot side which spins(spools) the turbine blades then the exhaust gasses are released out in to the downpipe. Air is generated from the intake side(cool side) of the turbo when the exhaust side blades spin they are connected to the cold side and they spin which creates air. The two forms of air never mix.

Am i right here??

never in that post does it say exhaust... it says hot compressed air, which is correct... why you think it's called the hot side on the IC piping. there is nothing to do with exhaust in that post

Sorry but number three is wrong....

The exhaust gasses never re enter your motor. They travel through the turbos hot side which spins(spools) the turbine blades then the exhaust gasses are released out in to the downpipe. Air is generated from the intake side(cool side) of the turbo when the exhaust side blades spin they are connected to the cold side and they spin which creates air. The two forms of air never mix.

He never said they did... :lol:

You should really be careful trying to teach someone w/ a custom built turbo car how a turbo system works.

haha beat u to it

haha beat u to it

F*ck you Paul! :cussing: :lol:

hey hey i fixed it it's not teaching calm down guys

Can't wait to get my hands on this kit. Will it be possible to get 79s and a tune with this kit?

i think i see what you guys are getting at... basically taking this setup and running a turbo in between the DEI piping right:

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/11/dei.jpg



lol had to resurrect that one

HAHA i remember seeing that and that was the best thing EVER!!

You didn't fix anything thing because there was nothing broken. you were misinformed. you probably read the diagram wrong just like you did that post. but i digress, when can we expect track times for all these cars. i know there is still work to be done but just a guess

i think i see what you guys are getting at... basically taking this setup and running a turbo in between the DEI piping right:

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/11/dei.jpg



lol had to resurrect that one

You could fry LSJs in a quarter of the time. :)

how much do u guys thinks level three would cost on an install? 500?

You didn't fix anything thing because there was nothing broken. you were misinformed. you probably read the diagram wrong just like you did that post. but i digress, when can we expect track times for all these cars. i know there is still work to be done but just a guess

Meaning i fixed what i said in the post that i miss typed and left a part out. Dude stop getting bent out of shape over this. What i don't get is ALL air is HOT when it comes in from the air filter/intake. Being were it will be above the fender well is a good idea because air flow does travel up that and it is out of the way of all elements. Let it go man, if you don't like his set up that's cool don't buy it. But I'm sure Bill knows what he's doing with this design.

Meaning i fixed what i said in the post that i miss typed and left a part out. Dude stop getting bent out of shape over this. What i don't get is ALL air is HOT when it comes in from the air filter/intake. Being were it will be above the fender well is a good idea because air flow does travel up that and it is out of the way of all elements. Let it go man, if you don't like his set up that's cool don't buy it. But I'm sure Bill knows what he's doing with this design.

Yeah. If you really wanted to get frosty air then you could move the washer tank and run the intake in the fender.

Yeah. If you really wanted to get frosty air then you could move the washer tank and run the intake in the fender.

Hey dude ya i was thinking of that but i wasn't sure as to how wicked of a bend you would have to make to stay under the hood clearance and stay above the motor mount since its a 3" pipe. I might try it once i get the kit.

Meaning i fixed what i said in the post that i miss typed and left a part out. Dude stop getting bent out of shape over this. What i don't get is ALL air is HOT when it comes in from the air filter/intake. Being were it will be above the fender well is a good idea because air flow does travel up that and it is out of the way of all elements. Let it go man, if you don't like his set up that's cool don't buy it. But I'm sure Bill knows what he's doing with this design.

im not getting bent outta shape you jus took my tone as something other than what my intentions were. something gets lost in translation over the internet. and i never once questioned bill's setup or designing abilities. and dont take this the wrong way but you should be careful of how you word things cause you always sound like your on the defensive like someone is attacking you, i dont know if those are your intentions. but anyway.........when are the track times gonna be posted

but anyway.........when are the track times gonna be posted

When it gets nice out during a damn weekend. Every weekend it has been raining. And figures its raining right now! I have a track day scheduled with UTI May 3rd. So hopefully that weekend I can get some times/vids!

When it gets nice out during a damn weekend. Every weekend it has been raining. And figures its raining right now! I have a track day scheduled with UTI May 3rd. So hopefully that weekend I can get some times/vids!

shit dude ur right near me. only like 30 min or so away. i want to see ur car!!!! lol and let me know when your going to the track. ill go with ya.

also join up www.thechicagogarage.org its a local club with guys from around the suburbs, alot are from elgin and wheaton and we meet up every week, sometimes more. we have track days and u just missed dyno day :D lol

When it gets nice out during a damn weekend. Every weekend it has been raining. And figures its raining right now! I have a track day scheduled with UTI May 3rd. So hopefully that weekend I can get some times/vids!

so apparently when i post in big bold black letters i get answers to my question with no extra lip...good to know j/k

bump... no prices yet???

Sorry but number three is wrong unless u are saying this. I'm not to sure from how you worded it what you ment.

The exhaust gasses never re enter your motor. They travel through the turbos hot side which spins(spools) the turbine blades then the exhaust gasses are released out in to the downpipe. Air is generated from the intake side(cool side) of the turbo when the exhaust side blades spin they are connected to the cold side and they spin which creates air. The two forms of air never mix.

Am i right here??

Wow thank god Paul and Edubs got this one for me! :lol: I definitely wouldn't know how turbo cars work since my other car, my Integra, has a self fabbed turbo kit on it and it could probably outrun most of the Cobalts on here except for Paul's, 06nos's, and 06Black's! ;)



Hey Bill, can the 20G turbo be clocked down so the outlet is facing towards the ground? I have a different idea for pipe routing needless to say.

shit dude ur right near me. only like 30 min or so away. i want to see ur car!!!! lol and let me know when your going to the track. ill go with ya.

also join up www.thechicagogarage.org its a local club with guys from around the suburbs, alot are from elgin and wheaton and we meet up every week, sometimes more. we have track days and u just missed dyno day :D lol

Haha yea Im already on that site. I know SYP and a bunch of people on there as I went to school with all of them. haha. Im not on there much but I am on there! I will let you all know when Im going up there!

hell ya lol. i want to see your car

Any updates since it's friday?? Hopefully the pricing is released later today.

I would like to see a 20G kit with Air2Air that feeds into a 2.4 manifold.

If you don't want to go nuts with the port fueler and sheet metal intake is something in the 300-350 hp range doable?

I need a price too so i know how much to either beg my wife for or steal

^^^haha that's so what I'm doing too.


Looks like we won't know anything for another week.... sad face :(

damnit

I would like to see a 20G kit with Air2Air that feeds into a 2.4 manifold.

If you don't want to go nuts with the port fueler and sheet metal intake is something in the 300-350 hp range doable?

I like the idea however I really don't think the 2.4 plastic intake manifold will take the pressure. I could be wrong however, and I'm sure Hahn knows the real answer to this better than I would. Another alternative however would be the SAAB 2.0T aluminum manifold that already has all the provisions for our sensors we need.

Hey everyone!

I am currently in Las Vegas at the 3rd annual Solstice/Sky National Meet. More Ecotec love for our RWD cousins!

I was hoping for a decent wireless connection in my room so I could continue to revamp our webpages for this new 2.0 turbosystem while I am here, but alas...it's slow to the point of nearly unusable. Stupid motel wireless systems! If I don't get a decent connection while I am here, the updates will have to wait until I return on Monday.

A couple of other quick notes:

Track times will be available after we've gone to the track repeatedly, and developed times I am comfortable with displaying. How long will that take? Well, heh...could be all summer. Never fear...no other company devotes more time to getting to the track and posting killer numbers with their cars than us. In the meantime, our immediate priorities are street and dyno development and getting the systems into production.

Could the system be developed with different intake manifold options? Sure. But...at this point, we have to solidify one configuration and go to market with it. Undoubtedly, any number of variations COULD be considered, but we've decided that offering the system in component groups and modules is how we'll allow you folks to address that. Buy the setup that best fits your needs and experiment away!

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i'm ready to buy a stage 5 when ever you release it!

what exactly can we do for a BOV tho???? who's gunna make it?

what exactly can we do for a BOV tho???? who's gunna make it?

Uh, they make their own BOV that will come with the kit. Check out their site to see it as it is indeed quite nice!

that it is, I can't wait til I'm done with this shitty jury duty so I can go grab it from my job and install it... my poor turbo is not happy with the one I got now

that it is, I can't wait til I'm done with this shitty jury duty so I can go grab it from my job and install it... my poor turbo is not happy with the one I got now

:lol: That poor turbo! At least it gets to see some movement whereas my EVO III 16g on funcar #2 has even breathed life yet as I'm still awaiting my damn S300 back! :cussing:

HAHN Bov just installed, and Bad-fuckin-ass fixed my turbo flutter issue, and sounds sweet. Can't wait to do some more test pulls tomorrow with it.

I like the flutter noise unfortunately it's a bad thing.

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My Tial flutters, tried every spring they make. The lightest one is open at idle so I can't use it, the next up works great except for flutter at low rpms.

get the hahn one, no flutter, and stays closed at idle for once.... I'm loving this thing so far

My preferences as far as this goes:
-Easy install (complete setup)
-Simple (not too many parts)
-Walkthrough Manual on install
-Warranty
-High quality parts

Can you tell us why you are pricing it at 4000 dollars?

Thanks in advance :barf:

you want something like that and then ask about the price? lol

Bill, I know you were enjoying the Sky/Soltice deal you were at, but we want the pricing already! Purty Please! :)

It is done. 2:22 AM CST, and I am signing off for now. Please have a look!

http://www.turbosystem.com/New_Folder/Cobalt%20In%20Development%20Page.htm

We start taking orders...NOW. First systems will ship in May.

I thank you all, with extra-special kudos to Joe, Tyler and Paul for showing what LSJ can do! Now let's ALL prove to the world that Domestic FWD Performance isn't limited to SRT's!

It is done. 2:22 AM CST, and I am signing off for now. Please have a look!

http://www.turbosystem.com/New_Folder/Cobalt%20In%20Development%20Page.htm

We start taking orders...NOW. First systems will ship in May.

I thank you all, with extra-special kudos to Joe, Tyler and Paul for showing what LSJ can do! Now let's ALL prove to the world that Domestic FWD Performance isn't limited to SRT's!
whoa thats great. i guess im the first to see since im still up!!!! would it be ok to run the level 2 kit alone? without adding a intercooler, cause thats a big increase from level 2 to level 3 in price.

Ouch!! A wee more than what i was hoping prices to be. And what a bummer you don't get a boost controller in your setup, you would think that would just be included or have it on one of the options, since you are showing the possibilities of it hitting 360 with it. Hmm I'm going to have to think about this for a lil bit.... :(

I'm going to PM you Bill about some more details... But great Job getting it all done Bill Jr.

Ouch!! A wee more than what i was hoping prices to be. And what a bummer you don't get a boost controller in your setup, you would think that would just be included or have it on one of the options, since you are showing the possibilities of it hitting 360 with it. Hmm I'm going to have to think about this for a lil bit.... :(

I'm going to PM you Bill out some more details... But great Job getting it all done Bill Jr.

Boost controllers range from $15 DIY to $600. A good manual boost controller, Hallman for example is only around a $100, so you don't necessarily have to spend $300 on one. Hell my Integra uses a $15 DIY one that holds pressure great without creep for that matter, so that's more of a preference than anything.

whoa thats great. i guess im the first to see since im still up!!!! would it be ok to run the level 2 kit alone? without adding a intercooler, cause thats a big increase from level 2 to level 3 in price.

Well, a level 2 kit has no charge piping, intercooler, BOV, etc. You are going to have to fabricate your own stuff at that point, so it's a little hard to just run it alone. I will personally be getting the Level 2 kit or a slight variation thereof so I can piece together the rest and fabricate my own piping.

Bill, you will have a PM shortly about a Level 2 variation as soon as I find out about something that I working on right now. Any chance to see pictures of the intercooler piping? Very fair pricing by the way. :twothumbs

Boost controllers range from $15 DIY to $600. A good manual boost controller, Hallman for example is only around a $100, so you don't necessarily have to spend $300 on one. Hell my Integra uses a $15 DIY one that holds pressure great without creep for that matter, so that's more of a preference than anything.

Good point, I've been just used to and love the GReDDY one myself which like you said is 300. All in all the pricing is very fair because he is allowing you to pretty much create your own kit as well. Which most company's will not.

Hey Bill will the downpipe come with a bung installed in it for wideband monitoring? And what color will the piping be? Didn't you say black unless stated otherwise for an extra charge? And what would that extra charge be for a different color piping? Thanks

Good point, I've been just used to and love the GReDDY one myself which like you said is 300. All in all the pricing is very fair because he is allowing you to pretty much create your own kit as well. Which most company's will not.

I can't deny that my Integra has recently been upgraded to the Greddy one itself, but it was not $300 for me. My buddy did some work for a guy who in return gave it to him to which it was installed on my Integra since he has no turbo'd cars and has a lot of time into the Integra along with me. ;)

The Cobalt however may see the AEM one since I can replace my stock boost gauge with it to see increased boost and have an easy palce to mount it meanwhile utilizing the boost control part effectively killing three birds with one stone! :twothumbs


Bill, more so than the intercooler piping routes, I would like to see how the turbos outlet, inlet, etc are facing more than anything. Is the piping the same for the 20g kit as it was on the GT35R swap? Thanks again!

Good point, I've been just used to and love the GReDDY one myself which like you said is 300. All in all the pricing is very fair because he is allowing you to pretty much create your own kit as well. Which most company's will not.

Hey Bill will the downpipe come with a bung installed in it for wideband monitoring? And what color will the piping be? Didn't you say black unless stated otherwise for an extra charge? And what would that extra charge be for a different color piping? Thanks
Yes, we will add an optional wideband bung if you like. We mention that in the web text, but there's a lot of info there, so I know it's not all burned into your brain yet like it is in mine, hahaha! (Of course, I've been LIVING this setup for months now ;) )

Fact is, if we get custom color requests in the frst batch of orders, the charges will be reasonable...I'd estimate another 25-50 bux a system, depending on the colors (some will be more expensive than that, such as candies, metallics, etc) . It will be more costly once we get down the road a piece and have pre-coated pipes in standard gloss black on hand, for then we'll have to re-coat them for custom colors.

I can't deny that my Integra has recently been upgraded to the Greddy one itself, but it was not $300 for me. My buddy did some work for a guy who in return gave it to him to which it was installed on my Integra since he has no turbo'd cars and has a lot of time into the Integra along with me. ;)

The Cobalt however may see the AEM one since I can replace my stock boost gauge with it to see increased boost and have an easy palce to mount it meanwhile utilizing the boost control part effectively killing three birds with one stone! :twothumbs


Bill, more so than the intercooler piping routes, I would like to see how the turbos outlet, inlet, etc are facing more than anything. Is the piping the same for the 20g kit as it was on the GT35R swap? Thanks again!

Yes, the AEM boost controller is nice, but one aspect you should check into is if they have an external switch you can use to transition between boost levels. The GReddy controllers have a really effective steering wheel mounted one that we use on all our hi-powered FWD's...easy to get at during a pass at the track, or when you are dusting some unsuspecting ricer on the street.

Yes, this S20G system is laid out exactly like the GT35R version. We made the systems as close as possible...easy upgrades later for those who get busy! To swap in a GT35R should involve just a hose coupler and a single charge air pipe, some oil line revisions, and a different exhaust outlet housing...they may even end up using the same downpipes! Adding GT35R will also involve adding watercooling to support the ball-bearings, whereas S20G does not require coolant.

hmmm that greddy setup sounds promising, guess I just have more money to spend, oh yeah building the motor in this thing within the next 2 weeks, so expect some pretty crazy numbers

let the wife-begging comence!

^^^no kidding guess its time to raise the limit on my credit card.

i know how this is gonna sound but how about a military discount?lol

i know how this is gonna sound but how about a military discount?lol

This is a good question in fact! A lot of places do this. Crate Engine Depot, Turbochargers.com, and a some other places I've ordered from. Hell, I'm curious to know myself since I'm actully deployed right now! :guns: :usa:


Bill, the Greddy boost controller does indeed have that capability with the remote switch. I have one for my Integra to test when I return, as my buddy just put in my new clutch, slicks are awaiting, and once I return we'll be hitting the track to use it. If I like it enough, I'll pick up one for the Cobalt too! I never rule out anything until I get to see it or give it a go! :twothumbs

Us Military Men and Women are the reason you CAN sell these kits... soooooooooooo we should get them at dealer cost.

:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs

:guns::guns::guns::guns::guns:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

What modifications would be needed to run this on say a 2.4L as stated on your website?

What modifications would be needed to run this on say a 2.4L as stated on your website?

As far as we know, you'd have to:

relocate your washer bottle
tend to some sensor differences
compare throttle body mounting (may be the same, not sure at this time, perhaps someone here knows)
extend wiring for MAF and throttle body
take care of your own tuning

As such, you'd prob be best served by a Level III or IV system.

Us Military Men and Women are the reason you CAN sell these kits... soooooooooooo we should get them at dealer cost.

:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs

:guns::guns::guns::guns::guns:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
*stands at attention* sir, Yes sir!
We don't have a standard policy on this, but I will look into it :)

Does this work with the dual pass? or is that thrown out all together?

Does this work with the dual pass? or is that thrown out all together?

If you get the sheet metal intake manifold in the Level you desire then the dual pass setup would be deleted along with the HE pump and heat exhanger itself.

Wow bill i wasn't really expecting you to even consider the military discount idea. thats great maybe i wont have to beg as vigorously as i thought. you are indeed the shit.

how about chicagoland discounts lol :D :D

but seriously....

lol, what about some type of payment system?

Bill,
I thought you might enjoy this and maybe it'll drum up some more business for you.
I this is a post I made in another thread IRT him wanting so desperately to get a new SS/TC. I cleaned the language up a bit from the original post. :lol: Post it on your site or something. :twothumbs

Personal opinion, you're making a mistake buying the new TC.
Outside of me trying to sell you my car, pay attention to the way I'm thinking.
Look at the price of most any SC now, bottom dollar. Granted, they aren't set up like mine, but they're dirt cheap. $15k give or take depending on the miles.
Also, look at the Stage 5, fully funtional, bolt-on, top of the line Hahn turbo kit for the 2.0. This kit is ready to go. It's not some lost cause like the SC swaps that people have been trying. This kit is tested, proven, in production, and for sale now from a reputable company for about $4400.
Giving you a total of around $20K for a car that is already proven capable of 360hp on pump gas and will kick the crap out of a brand new TC by 100hp.

Now we'll look at the TC which you're so in love with.
$25,000 + financing = about $30K?

Somebody help me out here. Which is better?:
~$20K for 360hp
or
~$30K for 260hp
and a car that you know you're going to want to mod.
If you say you're not, you're lyin' to yourself.

Save you're money, do it right. If you're buying a TC because you think it's badass, you're sadly mistaken and will just end up dissappointed all over again. Buy a car that nobody wants, debadge it, maybe even get a lowpro spoiler, and build a real badass 4cyl beast that will have everybody wondering what the hell you have under the hood.

Now, back to the subject of a military discount..... :lol:

Bill,
I thought you might enjoy this and maybe it'll drum up some more business for you.
I this is a post I made in another thread IRT him wanting so desperately to get a new SS/TC. I cleaned the language up a bit from the original post. :lol: Post it on your site or something. :twothumbs



Now, back to the subject of a military discount..... :lol:
Wow. What can I say except thanks very much! That's a very eye-opening comparison. Even more so when you consider you have compared the TC's Engine HP (260) to the Hahn SS Turbo's Wheel HP (360). It gets even sicker when we consider that the Hahn Engine HP is more like 420.

Forgive me, I don't mean to get hung up on details, hahaha...your comparison is still very sobering!

I am still looking into the military thing. Hey, for those of you who have taken advantage of such military discounts...what do the vendors require you to provide to verify your military status?

how about chicagoland discounts lol :D :D

but seriously....

lol, what about some type of payment system?

We've looked at payment systems and financing in the past, and it's just not a good fit for our company, we've learned.