I'm taking my cobalt out of storage next week and was going to burn out the old gas before a fresh fill up. I added stabil to the tank before I put it in storage so I'm not worried about the old gas. What my question is about is biofuel. Does anyone have any experience mixing a little ethanol in with regular petrol to get a little added performance boost out of their 2.4, or any other engine for that matter? I was thinking 9 gallons of 92 octane premium and 1 gallon of e85 for a total of no more than 20% ethanol. I'm from Minnesota so our regular gas from kwik trip can have up to 10% ethanol in it though I'm lead to believe the premium usually has less ethanol in it? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated, but I'm not worried about fuel consumption, mileage or the like. Thanks!

well when i drive through PA some sunoco's have a blended 93 with ethanol in it. i have used it but i would be careful b/c ethanol is a much higher octane and you could hurt your engine since its not tuned for it..

I know pumps in NY have 10% ethonal.

Guys Seriously... there is a little button at the top called "SEARCH" this has been beaten more than a red headed stepchild....

The E10 is fine because it doesn't do anything but lower your gas milage... E85 is not meant for this car or motor unless you get the conversion kits available on the aftermarket period!

Can you point me to the aftermarket conversion kits? I'm not planning on running e85 (please read before you flame). More like e15 to e20. I'm also planning on tuning with efi live but i figured our stock computer could help out a little until i retune. I doubt our stock injectors run at 100%. There has to be some marginal room. Anyone else have some real life analysis on mixing a little extra ethanol into their gasoline to boost performance?

http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=GM2

There ya go!

the car will not run right with more then 10% ethanol in it

Gasoline for cars has contained a % ethanol since it was created.

It's nothing new and I have no idea why they just started posting stickers on all the pumps to tell us about it.

Just because the pump says it contains 10% doesn't mean its true.

Gasoline normally has around 5-10% ethanol depending on location, laws, etc.

http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=GM2

There ya go!

Thanks!

the car will not run right with more then 10% ethanol in it

So you're saying our injectors are maxed out, our computers are non adaptive, and our sensors suck. Wow..you're basically saying our cars are pos's from the factory.
i guess the hp & tq gains i've seen the k&n intake that are cars kind of do suck from a manufacturing standpoint from the factory (intake design wise) but that much of a gain must mean that our injectors, computers and sensors can't be that crappy can they? maybe i'm completely off here.

Thanks!



So you're saying our injectors are maxed out, our computers are non adaptive, and our sensors suck. Wow..you're basically saying our cars are pos's from the factory.
i guess the hp & tq gains i've seen the k&n intake that are cars kind of do suck from a manufacturing standpoint from the factory (intake design wise) but that much of a gain must mean that our injectors, computers and sensors can't be that crappy can they? maybe i'm completely off here.

You're arguing with a tuner who is trying to help you out.

So you're saying our injectors are maxed out, our computers are non adaptive, and our sensors suck. Wow..you're basically saying our cars are pos's from the factory.
i guess the hp & tq gains i've seen the k&n intake that are cars kind of do suck from a manufacturing standpoint from the factory (intake design wise) but that much of a gain must mean that our injectors, computers and sensors can't be that crappy can they? maybe i'm completely off here.


No, what I am telling you is our cars do not have a alcohol content sensor to determine the amount of ethanol in the gas like a flex fuel vehicle. I'm also telling you that the E85 is less efficent then gas in a way. It will take more E85 to power your motor then it will gasoline. So if you try to run to much of a mix your car will run lean unless you are actually tuned for a specific set up it would probably not do you any good. Not to mention the vehicle equped with fuel systems for the E85 have a different fuel pump, lines and injectors....it will corrode yours, but do as you like.

I don't believe any of that corrosion bs. I do believe you about the alcohol content sensor. The lean out. And the tune. But if going from e5 or e10 to e15 or e20 is going to throw a code and put my car into limp mode, or make it run like crap, I'll see. I've got a gtech pro rr that should give me an idea and I'm going to test that theory out for you and let you know. I also have a tuner with efi live and he has tons of tuning experience with gas and diesel, and some e85 tuning experience as well. So if I don't get a good experience out of a little mix I'm sure he can. I just wanted to know everyones opinion and obviously no one here likes ethanol. I've personally had mixed thoughts about it but if Koenigsegg can get an extra 200 bhp out of my dream car, the CCXR edition then I think ethanol is my new best friend.

I don't believe any of that corrosion bs. I do believe you about the alcohol content sensor. The lean out. And the tune. But if going from e5 or e10 to e15 or e20 is going to throw a code and put my car into limp mode, or make it run like crap, I'll see. I've got a gtech pro rr that should give me an idea and I'm going to test that theory out for you and let you know. I also have a tuner with efi live and he has tons of tuning experience with gas and diesel, and some e85 tuning experience as well. So if I don't get a good experience out of a little mix I'm sure he can. I just wanted to know everyones opinion and obviously no one here likes ethanol. I've personally had mixed thoughts about it but if Koenigsegg can get an extra 200 bhp out of my dream car, the CCXR edition then I think ethanol is my new best friend.

you can beleive what ever you like.......if it didn't corrode the injectors, pump, lines, why do you think they would bother changing them for the flex fuel vehicles? The vehicle is not designed to run on more then a 10% alch. content....but then again beleive what you want. Yes there are people who run e85 on non flex fuel vehicles but they are tuned to run on that gas, and in turn can't run regular gas without switching their tune back. But it seems like you know everything so enjoy :)

I talked this over with a knowledgeable friend and he said the 02 sensor would probably pick up the lean and the computer would just adjust for fuel and richen up the mix and i probably would see no performance increase from the mix and just cause poorer fuel economy. He didn't feel that the corrosion would be a problem at all, just that the fuel would be a little dryer. So I've decided this test would be pointless. I'm not sure if I will run a mixture on my tune yet but with the local gas stations lowering octane numbers I'm sure e85 will be in my near future. I have learned a lot from this research and I'd like to thank everyone here in this post for contributing to my education and taking the time to help me along my path to ethanol progress! Thanks again!

Scott

No, what I am telling you is our cars do not have a alcohol content sensor to determine the amount of ethanol in the gas like a flex fuel vehicle. I'm also telling you that the E85 is less efficent then gas in a way. It will take more E85 to power your motor then it will gasoline. So if you try to run to much of a mix your car will run lean unless you are actually tuned for a specific set up it would probably not do you any good. Not to mention the vehicle equped with fuel systems for the E85 have a different fuel pump, lines and injectors....it will corrode yours, but do as you like.

all vehicals built after 1985 have fuel lines, pumps, and injectors that will supports e85. all you would have to do to run e85 is tune for it and depending on your injectors you might have to get better ones. there is a guy that lives by me that has a GTO and is running just e85. didn't change shit but his tune.

Hey guys. What connector do we need for the cobalt for the change2e85?

http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=GM2

The ev6 or the delphi. And seriously where are the injectors on our car, i know where the spark plugs are atleast. haha. A well detailed description will do fine. :)

USCar/EV6. As to where the injectors are on the 2.4, I'm getting my 39# injectors on Wednesday so I should be finding out soon.

i'm just putting this out there but there's a boosted hhr 2.4 running e85 and has been for some time and he tuned it with efi live.. pushing like 260 whp.. however he said it doesn't save him much money because of how much more is used to make power

not looking to save money, looking to make more power than 92 octane gas. also looking to make the earth a greener place in the long run as an added bonus.

well e85 isn't the route for power

well e85 isn't the route for power


Actually....

I work for a Chevy dealership in Phx, AZ and e85 has special lines for your gas. E85 burns hotter and faster.

Good things with E85 cheaper, more power.
Bad things burns faster and gets less miles per gallon.

Spoke to a GM rep (showcases all the new vehicles to us) You can not use E85 with any vehicle that is not equipped to take that gasoline. The yellow gas cap lets you know. Your vehicle will use and reqonize it however your lines will corrode and (from my understanding) void your warranty.

Hope this helps someone if this has not already been brought up

greener my ass. E85 fuels actually contribute more polution to the environment then regular pump gas. Not the fuel its' self, but how it's producted, is more labor intensive, which puts out more pollution. Don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE fan of biodiesel(made from used veggie oil) but not these plant based fuels. Because of these fuels, some farmers now only grow crops that are for bio-fuel, which means that field of wheat they use to grow, doesn't get planted anymore. If it's food or fuel, I choose food everytime.

E85 also has a lower heating value (units of energy per unit mass) than gasoline leading to a reduction in power output in a gasoline engine


we're talking on a gas engine... not one setup for it

I'm not going to get into a pollution argument. My car will be tuned for e85, so yes, more power than I can get from 92 octane pump gas. Void my warranty? If I do have problems, prove that I used it. You can let fear run your life. Go watch CNN and bend over for the man. No vasoline bitches!

Void my warranty? If I do have problems, prove that I used it.

Service manager at teh dealership:

"Ok, lets pull the injectors and have a look here... annnnndddd....... Oh my, look at that. Abnormal corrosion. Looks like someone has been running something other then you average fuel. Well, thats against warranty policies. Looks like you gotta pay for this one yourself.... Oh, and we charge $80 an hour, it took us 3 hours to pop out your injectors and determine the problem. You owe us $240, is that credit or debit?"

Alcohol will corrode any vehicle that isn't made for it. I just watched an episode of Top Gear where they were using the bio-diesel they farmed for an endurance race. They kept blowing seals in the beginning b/c their fuel had too much methanol for the motor!

I know they are stupid sometimes, like hating the Z06 b/c it isn't "streetable", but that sounded legit.

Also the only motors I've heard that can get the power out that ethanol has to offer are built from the ground up. Flexfuel motors aren't that.

Service manager at teh dealership:

"Ok, lets pull the injectors and have a look here... annnnndddd....... Oh my, look at that. Abnormal corrosion. Looks like someone has been running something other then you average fuel. Well, thats against warranty policies. Looks like you gotta pay for this one yourself.... Oh, and we charge $80 an hour, it took us 3 hours to pop out your injectors and determine the problem. You owe us $240, is that credit or debit?"

ROFLOL. I'm not going to pick apart your scenario. But if you think I would let that shit ride..you have no idea who I am. Manager, Managers Manager, and if that didn't solve it I'd be on the phone to GM. You think I give up and bend over like you? Hell no. I get my way. You think I paid MSRP for my car? LOL. Your ass must hurt at night..seriously. I don't know how half of you can sit down.

E85 fuel FAQ (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341)

Happy reading!

greener my ass. E85 fuels actually contribute more polution to the environment then regular pump gas. Not the fuel its' self, but how it's producted, is more labor intensive, which puts out more pollution. Don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE fan of biodiesel(made from used veggie oil) but not these plant based fuels. Because of these fuels, some farmers now only grow crops that are for bio-fuel, which means that field of wheat they use to grow, doesn't get planted anymore. If it's food or fuel, I choose food everytime.


Next time you look in the mirror, realize you're looking at a brainwashed lemming.

Not so much brainwashed as not wanting to engineer a top fuel dragster. This stuff looks more promising than ethanol.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/green-crude-fuel-of-the-future.html Algae grows a hell of a lot faster than corn or rice.

Whats best is that it can be used w/o modifying the car from its regular gas setup. And assuming planes need higher octane than cars(since I don't know if this was a prop plane or not that was flew in the article), then this stuff is good for racing fuel. Time will tell. But I really don't think ethanol has a large future once penny pinchers start comparing milage notes b/t their E85 and their conventional gas.

ROFLOL. I'm not going to pick apart your scenario. But if you think I would let that shit ride..you have no idea who I am. Manager, Managers Manager, and if that didn't solve it I'd be on the phone to GM. You think I give up and bend over like you? Hell no. I get my way. You think I paid MSRP for my car? LOL. Your ass must hurt at night..seriously. I don't know how half of you can sit down.

E85 fuel FAQ (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341)

Happy reading!


You apparently do bend right over and take it in the ass, cause you are all worked up over absolutely nothing. I only posted that for a laugh silver.

Not so much brainwashed as not wanting to engineer a top fuel dragster. This stuff looks more promising than ethanol.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/green-crude-fuel-of-the-future.html Algae grows a hell of a lot faster than corn or rice.

Whats best is that it can be used w/o modifying the car from its regular gas setup. And assuming planes need higher octane than cars(since I don't know if this was a prop plane or not that was flew in the article), then this stuff is good for racing fuel. Time will tell. But I really don't think ethanol has a large future once penny pinchers start comparing milage notes b/t their E85 and their conventional gas.

That article is definately interesting. Yet, the amount of e85 that can be produced from algae is supposidely astronomical in comparison, so I guess it's all going to depend on what works better in different climates.

However, Ethanol is NOT a fundamentally inferior fuel. All of our current issues with E85 are due to the fact that you are taking an engine designed for Gasoline and compromising it to run E85. If the engine was designed from the ground up for a higher octane fuel, it could be built smaller and just as if not more efficient than today's gas engines. I wouldn't be surprised to see 1.4L Turbo Ethanol engines producing 200 horses and getting 45 mph highway in the very near future.

Which was my argument in the first place. You'd have to completely redesign the engine. But rather than ethanol, why don't we just use ethyl alcohol like top fuel dragsters. That stuff is so hot that the flames you see coming out of the exhaust aren't from the motor, but the air in the atmosphere catching fire!

At the same time, redesigning the motor of a conventional car to take alcohol as a primary fuel would probably rise the cost of the car more than the $1500 or so that Bob Lutz is predicting. And that $1500 just b/c of direct injection and weight saving materials.

the original automotive combustion engine was made to run on alcohol. gasoline was a byproduct, a waste product at that time, and was cheaper than alcohol and an obvious choice to burn instead. now we need to replace gasoline. an obvious choice was to go back to alcohol. redesign the motor. what planet are you from?

You apparently do bend right over and take it in the ass, cause you are all worked up over absolutely nothing. I only posted that for a laugh silver.

I didn't think you were that big of a tard..but I had my doubts..but seriously exit only dude. Check your injector for any strange corrosion :lol:

My research shows the first engine running on gasoline. Karl Benz's "Motorwagen".

Henry Ford had an ethanol plant way back when he was selling the model T.

The only major change needed to run alcohol properly is upping the compression, which, if done at the factory at original assembly would cost VERY little.

Which was used in a 1942 design which was made from the ground up to use alcohol. Also looked like that was the first plastic car ever made. And seems that no one was enthusiastic about it.

But then it looks like Henry Ford was thinking that ethyl alcohol is the fuel of the future. Which brings me back again to the original statement that it is good if you completely build a motor for it. Like top fuel dragsters do.

In all the reading I did, looks like we've been blending small amounts of ethyl since the beginning. Beyond that, there is too much controversy for any real facts to be spoken.

Still, I think it'd be best to build an engine from the ground up rather than slapping on a kit and seeing how much power you are expecting to get from a convention motor. Saying alcohol is superior b/c of what someone said in the 1930s doesn't help much now. Engines back then were only making 20-60 horsepower. Even Vtecs get more than that.

I'm still trying to read though. Just I'm busy at work at the same time.

Which was used in a 1942

Motorwagon - 1885
Model T - 1908

The car that was built for alcohol was patented in 1942.

The car that was built for alcohol was patented in 1942.

I'm telling you both the above were built to run on alcohol at the dates quoted, but, sure, there were no patents applied for them in that manner.

Guys Seriously... there is a little button at the top called "SEARCH" this has been beaten more than a red headed stepchild....

The E10 is fine because it doesn't do anything but lower your gas milage... E85 is not meant for this car or motor unless you get the conversion kits available on the aftermarket period!

WERD! You need to have an alcohol sensor in the fuel system to adjust the AFR between the 14.7 and ~11.0 that the two run on. Ethanol will destroy your motor if run at 14.7 AFR. So far the only cobalts with the alcohol sensor are the 2.4L and from the factory they are not setup for E85......and they also have programs for Displacement on Demand to shut cylinders off.

I'm telling you both the above were built to run on alcohol at the dates quoted, but, sure, there were no patents applied for them in that manner.

So the first car...1 hp...was made for alcohol. I seriously doubt it. No evidence points to it. It was powered by whats called the Otto gasoline engine.

Also willing to say this is the longest thread I've kept alive in a debate.

So the first car...1 hp...was made for alcohol. I seriously doubt it. No evidence points to it. It was powered by whats called the Otto gasoline engine.

Also willing to say this is the longest thread I've kept alive in a debate.

I personally only did the research on the Model T, so I can't really speak or confirm any data on the Motorwagon.

So, My point is that 1908 is still a long time before 1942.

Your point was that the original automobiles were built to run on alcohol. They were not. All kinds of mixes from gasohol to gasonol were experimented with, but with no conclusion that would lead to it going mainstream. Usually due to economics. I guess once the wheel got rolling with gasoline, it was never stopped.

Henry Ford didn't start off building one of the first cars, he started off building the first assembly line for them. But even for that I'm sure we're all grateful. Or that $20k Cobalt now all the sudden would have cost about double that.

As for research, I just googled. Alcohol for motors has a long history. At the same time, its not like we are ignoring it completely. Its just seals and gaskets don't die when you only have 10% ethanol in the tank.

Your point was that the original automobiles were built to run on alcohol. They were not.

I never said original. Henry Ford's Ethanol plant was shut down by litigation started by Mobil. The fact that alcohol became illegal around the same time didn't help any, either, and honestly, can be tied back to Mobil as well.

Furthermore, Mobil's own R&D department came to the conclusion that using lead as a gasoline additive was a bad idea, and yet they did it anyway. If lead was never added, there would not have been the need for the extensive emissions laws we have today.

So, quite putting words in my mouth, thank you very much.

Your point was that the original automobiles were built to run on alcohol. They were not. All kinds of mixes from gasohol to gasonol were experimented with, but with no conclusion that would lead to it going mainstream. Usually due to economics. I guess once the wheel got rolling with gasoline, it was never stopped.

Henry Ford didn't start off building one of the first cars, he started off building the first assembly line for them. But even for that I'm sure we're all grateful. Or that $20k Cobalt now all the sudden would have cost about double that.

As for research, I just googled. Alcohol for motors has a long history. At the same time, its not like we are ignoring it completely. Its just seals and gaskets don't die when you only have 10% ethanol in the tank.

Some of those cars were also built during a time when the grains required to make alcohol were hit or miss on the seasons and the climate was very dry. So it would not have been as stable of a fuel source to manage.

[QUOTE=Wild Balt;2419464]Your point was that the original automobiles were built to run on alcohol. They were not.

Yes, because gasoline was a byproduct of kerosene production from oil, gasoline was used instead of alcohol. Gasoline was plentiful, a waste product, instead of dumping it in the ocean, or your mother and fathers water supply, they dumped it in there cars fuel tank, and away they went. If only it was that simple today. Yes alcohol is dry, but with some petrol lubricating seals and gaskets (e85), and better seal and gasket technology, problem solved. Ok, so they weren't built to run on alcohol, but they're not built to not run on it either, like you had stated. Just like the original combustion engine wasn't run on gasoline. I believe otto ran his original engine on coal. With a few tweaks here and there the internal combustion engine could probably run on your dogs turds (methane) or hemp (mary jane..yeah baby).

Right, it was Silverz that said they were meant to run on alcohol. Sorry.

Back when internal combution was new, I'm sure the ideas for fuel were limitless. But now they are all tuned and tested for somewhere b/t 87 and 94 octane.

And I missed the whole Mobil scandal as I was speaking strictly fuel. The Prohibition didn't enter my mind. But figuring 1942 was WWII, figured maybe Ford was trying it out just b/c of fuel rationing. But even that didn't sway enough opinions to make the stuff. But think-if we did start to use alcohol, we wouldn't be blaming Exxon right now, we'd be blaming Jack Daniels! :P

Okay shutting up now.

lemming my ass, I've seen the out comes(from the production side) of some of these new bio-fuels, and some are very promising, and others are down right scarey.

lemming my ass, I've seen the out comes(from the production side) of some of these new bio-fuels, and some are very promising, and others are down right scarey.

"new bio-fuels"? I'm interested in hearing more about them, that's for sure. As for Ethanol, It is certainly not new, and what it does has been documented by Brazilian mechanics for almost four decades.

Methanol is certainly NOT Ethanol, either. I'm 100% completely against trying to create any more methanol (although I don't see it as a bad thing to harness what we already produce- such as current landfills, etc.)

Okay shutting up now.

LOL! I dunno about you, but I have an aunt that makes some damn good moonshine!

I'm taking my cobalt out of storage next week and was going to burn out the old gas before a fresh fill up. I added stabil to the tank before I put it in storage so I'm not worried about the old gas. What my question is about is biofuel. Does anyone have any experience mixing a little ethanol in with regular petrol to get a little added performance boost out of their 2.4, or any other engine for that matter? I was thinking 9 gallons of 92 octane premium and 1 gallon of e85 for a total of no more than 20% ethanol. I'm from Minnesota so our regular gas from kwik trip can have up to 10% ethanol in it though I'm lead to believe the premium usually has less ethanol in it? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated, but I'm not worried about fuel consumption, mileage or the like. Thanks!

make sure to run the car for a least 7 miles for the computer to kick over unless your car is made for that then you don't have to run it if you don't it wount start at all.