Cobalt SS/TC Product Development Testing, 7-01-08

Location: Route 66 Raceway, Joliet Illinois
Elevation: 660 feet
Conditions: 77-84 degrees, high humidity, 2500 feet adjusted altitude
Modifications:
• Hahn RaceCraft 3” SS CatBack Exhaust
• Hahn/BSR PPC Tuner
Weight with driver: 3165 lbs.
Boost Level: 21-23 PSI
Fuel: Shell 93 Octane


Video Links (dig the SRT-4 and Civic being ownt!)

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Hahn-RaceCraft-Cobalt-1-4_169448.htm
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Hahn-RaceCraft-Cobalt-2-4_169449.htm
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Hahn-RaceCraft-Cobalt-3-4_169451.htm
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Hahn-RaceCraft-Cobalt-4-4_169452.htm


Time Slip

http://www.turbosystem.com/ProjectVehicles/New_Folder/Cobalt/13.20%20timeslip%20cobalt%20ss-tc.gif

Driving Impressions:

Overall, the Cobalt’s driving dynamics are impressive. On the road, its suspension is super-poised, with .90G cornering capability, and a taut but smooth and supple ride. There’s no harshness for such a competent car. Cornering is the best I’ve experienced in a FWD car, and I am seriously considering autocrossing it as well. Braking is also superb, with front Brembo brakes and well-balanced ABS.

Tuned at the Nurburgring, it’s apparent that GM’s Performance Division put extensive effort into the handling dynamics of the car, also setting a world record with it at The Ring. This immensely capable package is not quite as well-suited to dragstrip use, for the low-profile tires and significant low-end torque of the car make it challenging to launch hard. However, this is not unusual, for no one wheel/tire combination can do it all, and great handling, low-profile tires just can’t create the footprint needed for strong dragstrip launch performance.

The direct-injected (DI) engine is almost eerily smooth! At lower RPM, where port-injected engines can be a bit rough, causing you to downshift, this DI engine is just as content as can be. It begs to be shifted early in regular commuting, which can only help fuel economy. I also find myself not remembering to upshift in cruising mode, as the engine is not buzzy when revved. Overall, this is one smooth operator!


On to the Track!

The car does really fun 2nd gear burnouts, as the videos will show. Fact is, I was overdoing the burnouts, but it was hard not to...the car just boils the tires once they get moving! Next time I will take it easier, but tonight was time to have some fun with the new toy.

I first tried the stock launch control, and quickly moved past it. I don’t doubt that with more track time, one could optimize it more, but I was on a mission, and I needed to get right to the best launches I was capable of. It seemed that the aggressiveness of the launch control system was more targeted for street-style traction, not the much harder bite of the dragstrip.

Launching conventionally, with a few whips of the throttle to spool the turbo, netted me much better results. I got to the 2.3 and 2.2 range of 60-foot times immediately. But tirespin was still evident, and I knew I’d have to really tiptoe through first gear to get the results I craved.

13.60’s came quickly as I continued to refine my launch technique. I also experimented with conventional shifting, then with ‘no-lift’ shifting. While the ‘no-lift’ shift seemed quite foreign to me, after a few passes trying both methods, I realized it was the way to go. Standard shifting, while effective on the street, was less effective at the track, especially once I got comfortable with ‘no-lift’. My experience with drag racing my 11.9 second Solstice has taught me that these ETC (Electronic Throttle) cars are just not the same as manual throttles for fast upshifts. Data shows no matter how quick you are, there is a lag from throttle closing to re-opening. Sure, it’s fractions of a second, but in drag-style upshifts of 0.3 seconds, a tenth is 33% longer, 2 tenths almost twice as long. These longer throttle closed times diminish turbo response as the throttle opens in the next gear. So, no-lift shift was the way to go if I wanted the best possible Elapsed Time (ET).

Fortunately, my PPC Tuner also extended the redline in 1st and 2nd to 7000 RPM. This is effective to keep the driver from hitting the rev limiter with the faster revving additional power enables. The 3rd – 4th upshift came a bit earlier, at 6200. Very little time spent in 4th, but running out 3rd with no upshift is not a possibility with 105+ MPH trap speeds.

The last two passes of the night saw me really figure it out. I skipped right past the 13.50’s with a 13.45, and while there was still a lot of tirespin in 1st, I knew I was closer than ever to the sweet spot. I was right! Next I skipped right past the 13.30’s (and almost the 13.20’s!) with a solid 13.20 @ 104.33 pass. The 2.09 60-foot time was far and away the best of the night, and the rest of the pass was spot-on, with perfect shift points. I tend to save the best for last on these nighttime tuning sessions!


What could stand improvement?

Well, even though these are excellent numbers for a car with just an exhaust and a tune, the current package is not optimized…yet. Weather was poor for high power.

The tire combination can be improved dramatically. As a skilled FWD racer, it took me a number of passes to coax out that 2.09 60 foot. I’ve been as quick as 1.79 on small drag radials with my SRT-4. That alone would take this car into the 12.80’s easily, even in the same weather. The still relatively new engine may also develop a bit more power as the piston rings seat in fully.

Intake air temperature data was collected and analyzed. The temperatures, especially deep into the run, can be improved with a more efficient intercooler. The stock piece, while fairly good-sized, uses the typical tube-and-fin type core common to OEM applications. It heats up more quickly with the additional airflow and boost we’re making now. We’ll apply an intercooler very similar to what we currently build for this LNF turbo engine in Solstice and Sky. These intercooler units are massive, and not only improve peak power and reduce heat intake to the engine, they also improve low-speed turbo response.

And that’s what we will do next. First improve traction, and then upgrade the intercooler. We should have more results later this month!


What else are we working on for SS/TC?

• Performance Intercooler
• Air Intake Upgrade
• Intercooler Tube Upgrade
• Blow-Off Valve Upgrade
• Downpipe / Cat Con Upgrade
• Turbocharger Upgrades (a couple of flavors TBA)

All of these items will be complimentary to one another, as well as to our SS 3” Cat-Back Exhaust and PPC Tuner. Using them as a system will allow one to avoid the problems we’ve seen with mixing up items from different vendors on Solstice GXP and Sky Redline (other cars we’re noted for that feature the turbo LNF engine).


What should I get first for my SS/TC?

Hahn/BSR PPC Tuner and Hahn 3” SS exhaust. Without a doubt, as we’ve proved in other turbo LNF applications, this is the best bang for your buck.


What are the goals of our SS/TC development program?

We intend to meet, and then surpass, the performance of our SRT-4 program, which resulted in 11.8 second, 122 MPH runs with true bolt-ons and street tires. In doing so, the car must retain 100% daily driveability and fuel economy, with no tradeoffs to the new power level save for excessive tire wear!

respectable cant wait to get a ss/tc as well as ur catback and tune

Awesome:twothumbs!

oh no look what you are going to make me do... I have to fight it despite the gas costs I need to get the new camaro ss LOL great times very nice to hear.

Great numbers :twothumbs

holy shit! you are almost in the 12s with less than nothing mods.... its takes alot money to get our cars that low. i am wrong about the TC, there is serious potential. this is fuckin sick! epic

holy shit! you are almost in the 12s with less than nothing mods.... its takes alot money to get our cars that low. i am wrong about the TC, there is serious potential. this is fuckin sick! epic

x2 man amazingt job...u wnna drive my car then? lol...i can trap 116 soo you tell me what you can run haha

those runs in the videos are awesome. Maybe all of us could have taken advantage of this had the car come out three years earlier. Still love my ss/sc though.

damn man .. fucking sexy great job.. great job... you guys are going to make a shit load of people happy..

but now there are going to be alot of turbo balts out there now.. i think lol

Wow.. nice runs! Stage 2 say what?

Very impressive. Nice job. And 2.09 60', damn!

Bill - I and someone else already broke our shift linkage for up/2nd,4th and reverse gear on the tranny end. I know your at the track alot also, so keep that in mind, they are very cheasy carbon plastic.

So maybe an upgrade for that to? im sure youll see more broken as more cars hit consumers hands.

already?

Wow.. nice runs! Stage 2 say what?

We say "Bring it on sucka!"

subscribe

so what can the stock engine hold as far as power when you guys upgrade to the super 20g?

bill u r the man!

So was this on drag radials since you were doing burnouts?

did you watch the vids dude?

ok, here is my question... what about the tranny. i thought the tranny can hold much more than stock hp.... we shall find out later.

So was this on drag radials since you were doing burnouts?

I was wondering the same thing..

did you watch the vids dude?

ok, here is my question... what about the tranny. i thought the tranny can hold much more than stock hp.... we shall find out later.

Doesn't say in the vid...

Yes it has stock WHEELS... but it could have had different tires...

impressive

Doesn't say in the vid...

Yes it has stock WHEELS... but it could have had different tires...

no shit it doesnt say in the vid. hahhahaha. look at the vid when it pulls up, it has stock tires with alot of air bled out. unless you know of drags that are 3" thick....

so what can the stock engine hold as far as power when you guys upgrade to the super 20g?
We are confident we can push 450-500 HP. We've been doing it on LSJ with turbo, and LE5 with turbo, so...it stands to reason.

We are confident we can push 450-500 HP. We've been doing it on LSJ with turbo, and LE5 with turbo, so...it stands to reason.

completely different engine though right? all aluminum if im not mistaken

so much for turbo vs supercharged.... ha ha ha lol.....





















I had to, i couldn't resist

So was this on drag radials since you were doing burnouts?
No sir, stock tires, at 24 PSI.

completely different engine though right? all aluminum if im not mistaken
No, its basically the same block.

Congrats to a sucessful night Bill . 13.2@104 with room to improve is pretty damn cool for just a tune up , a cat back and a little patcience to figure out how to get it down the track best . These cars are gonna be pretty damn qwik .

wut gear do u find best to do burnouts in?? because im goin to the track next weekend with some nittos, and ill need to burn them fuckers out

no shit it doesnt say in the vid. hahhahaha. look at the vid when it pulls up, it has stock tires with alot of air bled out. unless you know of drags that are 3" thick....

lol yes there are 225/40/18 DRAG RADIALS you can run on stock wheels.... try again.

We say "Bring it on sucka!"

LOL no, you say hey ss/tc your tail lights are dirty.

VERY impressive!! With some DR's that car is going 12's. That is just badass. Great job hahn!

No sir, stock tires, at 24 PSI.


No, its basically the same block.

then that is even more impressive!

oh yeah, congrats bill those are some great numbers

Sickness :twothumbs

wut gear do u find best to do burnouts in?? because im goin to the track next weekend with some nittos, and ill need to burn them fuckers out
Second gear. Put it in the water, lock the ebrake, and pop the clutch at about 4000 RPM! Have traction control set to 'Off'.

Second gear. Put it in the water, lock the ebrake, and pop the clutch at about 4000 RPM! Have traction control set to 'Off'.

dont have a cobalt hah...so no traction control for me lmao...ok thanks man ill keep that in mind...nevr done a burnout before in my life hah...dont really beat on the car lol

lol yes there are 225/40/18 DRAG RADIALS you can run on stock wheels.... try again.
This is good news! I need them :)

amazing job... cant wait to get one now, especially with all the stuff you guys will be offering in the future. 12s with that few of mods (the future mods listed also) is what we need

Wow.. nice runs! Stage 2 say what?

what?

for real though, good numbers

This is good news! I need them :)

Well they are Nittos..I bet you could get yourself a free set lol.

i can't believe how quickly you guys got some toys for this car. You've only had yours for a week or two haven't you?

lol yes there are 225/40/18 DRAG RADIALS you can run on stock wheels.... try again.

so you didnt see how flat the tire was? observation>you

i can't believe how quickly you guys got some toys for this car. You've only had yours for a week or two haven't you?
heh, picked it up Friday night after work :)

cant wait for the piping/intercooler upgrade and turbo upgrade. hurry and get the kit out!

I ordered a set of Nitto NT 01/Drag Radials
http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/findTireDetail.do?c=1&sw=false&cs=225&pc=40359&rd=18&ar=40

Ill have them tomm. and ill let ya know the 60' when i go back on friday.

oh shit so like you've had it for the weekend, damn that is awesome

I ordered a set of Nitto NT 01/Drag Radials
http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/findTireDetail.do?c=1&sw=false&cs=225&pc=40359&rd=18&ar=40

Ill have them tomm. and ill let ya know the 60' when i go back on friday.

you really are a moron, those are road race tires

*tries not to laugh*..... :lol:

*tries not to laugh*..... :lol:

oh its worth it!

so you didnt see how flat the tire was? observation>you

lol again? what do you think people run 35 psi on drag radials or something?

Bill, that shit is awesome!!! I can't wait until I get mine! That is sweet stuff! Keep up the great work.

Guys, guys, let's be like Fonzie!

eeeeehhhhhhhhh!

looks good,but that trap speed is equal to a s2 ss/sc...without the mods its good for a 13.9 maybe better but trap speed wont be as high..so i donno

This is good news! I need them :)

Hopefully well skip the bullshit and see this car on a 16" wheel with a 26x9 hoosier OTP :cssNET:

....btw bill , the car sounds fantastic with the muffled 3" . Nice and quiet , me like alot .

you really are a moron, those are road race tires

555r's are 80 thread wear and work just as good as nt01s 100 thread wear
Ours stock are 180 so 100 is alot softer. also traction A. they work great at the track' i had a set on the turbo cavy.

You are the moron kiddie :)

looks good,but that trap speed is equal to a s2 ss/sc...without the mods its good for a 13.9 maybe better but trap speed wont be as high..so i donno

Indeed. We were not at full power...I suspect the hot, humid weather and very fresh engine.

555r's are 80 tread wear and work just as good as nt01s 100 tread wear
Ours stock are 180 so 100 is alot softer.

You are the moron kiddie :)

no dipshit, listen. tread wear does not mean you are going to hook better in a straight line. road race tires are meant to hook in corners, hence why they have a SUPER stiff sidewall. you know what a stiff sidewall means in drag racing? failure. would you use a DR's at an autocross becasue its treadware is lower than your stockers too? good job owning yourself yet again

555r's are 80 tread wear and work just as good as nt01s 100 tread wear
Ours stock are 180 so 100 is alot softer.

You are the moron kiddie :)

Um last time I checked , treadwear wasnt what u looked at when shopping a good tire to drag race with . A road race tire wont give as good a perfomance as a straightline tire .

Hopefully well skip the bullshit and see this car on a 16" wheel with a 26x9 hoosier OTP :cssNET:

....btw bill , the car sounds fantastic with the muffled 3" . Nice and quiet , me like alot .

I like the concept, but I am concerned we won't be able to get 16's over the Brembos.

Glad you like the exhaust too! Thanks :)

=========

Tire wars: Guys, this is a happy feelgood thread. Would you mind taking it outside?

Indeed. We were not at full power...I suspect the hot, humid weather and very fresh engine.

that true,thats why i said better,as i know how the chicago humidy affects boosted cars..makes u not wanna drive them at all till night time,but the exhaust and boost increase did give the car what 20-35hp over stock

looks good,but that trap speed is equal to a s2 ss/sc...without the mods its good for a 13.9 maybe better but trap speed wont be as high..so i donno

Ya on the east coast with cool weather for a stg 2 to trap 105. Here in az I had 2.8 w/tune
to trap 105. oh in 30* weather too.

hey bill, any plans on running a catless DP on this car?

hey bill, any plans on running a catless DP on this car?

when u really think bout it,a open 3" downpipe or full tbe 3" is same gains in power,maybe the full exhaust puts out little more since cars do need some back pressure

hey bill, any plans on running a catless DP on this car?
It's possible. We'll see if there's a demand, then act accordingly.

whats the stock boost level on the car, i see you are running 21+psi, u sure its safe for that turbo, the ko4 runs out of steam on my car after 6k rpms..

I like the concept, but I am concerned we won't be able to get 16's over the Brembos.

Glad you like the exhaust too! Thanks :)


...opps , I totally spaced the Brembo's yall have .

no dipshit, listen. tread wear does not mean you are going to hook better in a straight line. road race tires are meant to hook in corners, hence why they have a SUPER stiff sidewall. you know what a stiff sidewall means in drag racing? failure. would you use a DR's at an autocross becasue its treadware is lower than your stockers too? good job owning yourself yet again

No shit, road race tires have a hard side wall. we have 40 series tires so we dont have much to rinkle either way.
I was cutting 1.8's in the cavy with 20 psi no prob on nt01's

Lower thread wear is software compound/. jegs.com look up hoosier,bfg ratings.
Then go on your moms mini van and check her thread wear 320-400 and feel the diff ;)

Educate your selves:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treadwear_rating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slick_tire

whats the stock boost level on the car, i see you are running 21+psi, u sure its safe for that turbo, the ko4 runs out of steam on my car after 6k rpms..

cuz thats how mazda designed the power output..not 2 cars with same turbo's equal same power

Bill, I would like to hear your car idling, and then taking off, (on the street) because it sounded pretty good. I just want to affirm my hearing....

No shit, road race tires have a hard side wall. we have 40 series tires so we dont have much to rinkle either way.
I was cutting 1.8's in the cavy with 20 psi no prob on nt01's

Lower thread wear is software compound/. jegs.com look up hoosier,bfg ratings.
Then go on your moms mini van and check her thread wear 320-400 and feel the diff ;)

who cares,ur gonna get this thread locked cuz of mom's involved..just dont post anything if u can tpost anything nice

whats the stock boost level on the car, i see you are running 21+psi, u sure its safe for that turbo, the ko4 runs out of steam on my car after 6k rpms..
Stock boost is 15-ish.

The K04 turbo has no problems at this boost level...it's fairly efficient still. We've been doing this to the Solstice GXP and Sky Redline for some time now with no issues, so there's a nice reliability record to fall back on.

I like the concept, but I am concerned we won't be able to get 16's over the Brembos.

Glad you like the exhaust too! Thanks :)

=========

Tire wars: Guys, this is a happy feelgood thread. Would you mind taking it outside?

Bill,. i sent you a PM.

Tire wars, yeah. thats what the kids love to do, i just gave you a option and was gonna let ya know how they do at the track friday & drama begins

Lots of people love drama on the internet more then enjoying the hobby of racing @ the track

cuz thats how mazda designed the power output..not 2 cars with same turbo's equal same power

but look at the ko4 efficiency print out from bourgwarner. then you will see why i ask.. and alot of the kill is the throttle plate on my car closes to lower boost input after 6k. .

Bill, I would like to hear your car idling, and then taking off, (on the street) because it sounded pretty good. I just want to affirm my hearing....
I'll get some street vids. The track environment is so weird what with other cars running, and bouncy acoustics from walls and stands and such, it's hard to tell much.

No shit, road race tires have a hard side wall. we have 40 series tires so we dont have much to rinkle either way.
I was cutting 1.8's in the cavy with 20 psi no prob on nt01's

Lower thread wear is software compound/. jegs.com look up hoosier,bfg ratings.
Then go on your moms mini van and check her thread wear 320-400 and feel the diff ;)

deleted at hahn request

Stock boost is 15-ish.

The K04 turbo has no problems at this boost level...it's fairly efficient still. We've been doing this to the Solstice GXP and Sky Redline for some time now with no issues, so there's a nice reliability record to fall back on.

so estimating usually 12hp per 1psi so thats around 70ish hp over stock on just the boost increase?

but look at the ko4 efficiency print out from bourgwarner. then you will see why i ask.. and alot of the kill is the throttle plate on my car closes to lower boost input after 6k. .

but didnt Cobb's accessport fix the power die'in after 6k?

nice, thanks for the info, cant wait till a full tuning solution comes out for ms3 , until the mean time and can look in amazment at what you guys do to other cars. thats freakin awesome.

how much dose the PPC tune go for?

thanks

so estimating usually 12hp per 1psi so thats around 70ish hp over stock on just the boost increase?



but didnt Cobb's accessport fix the power die'in after 6k?

no they kept the tb plate to close to stay "safe" no one has much exp. on ms3 side of tuning a DI car. Once cobb releases the pro tuner software, it will be all out with custom dyno tunes.

subscribed

Haha ms3 boys are drooling already!

how much dose the PPC tune go for?

thanks

its like 995..

so estimating usually 12hp per 1psi so thats around 70ish hp over stock on just the boost increase?
Here's a dyno:

http://www.turbosystem.com/ProjectVehicles/New_Folder/Cobalt/Stock%20vs%20PPC_small.gif

For the most part, we consider about 10 HP per PSI of boost in this power range. But, there's other aspects coming into play, such as turbo efficiency, and airflow restrictions that increase as airflow is increased, so it's not a solid formula.

Haha ms3 boys are drooling already!

:lol: not drueling, just impressed..

How restrictive is the stock intake?

how much dose the PPC tune go for?

thanks

Have a look:

PPC Tuner for Solstice and Sky (http://www.turbosystem.com/New_Folder/SolsticeGXPRedline/GXPRedlineBSRPPC.htm)

How restrictive is the stock intake?
Not very restrictive, at least at these power levels. We'll have more data on this soon.

nice bill..that last run with those simple mods..nice work!

nice bill..that last run with those simple mods..nice work!
Thank you, and a big thanks to everyone else who's also offered congrats :cssNET:

wow. im jealous:twothumbs
I has turbo envy:lol:

i put the runs at a hair over +1500 da and around 66*

when r u gunna have stuff for sale? i want i want i want lol
and any check engine lights?

i put the runs at a hair over +1500 da and around 66*I'm curious...what are you using to derive that? (it was between 77* and 84* during the runs, by the way)

http://www.wunderground.com/
wetaher^

http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_da.htm
da calc

I'm curious...what are you using to derive that? (it was between 77* and 84* during the runs, by the way)

i got close to the same DA... if you're interested I can send you an excel formula and all you pop in is the variables such as local pressure and temperature etc...the "standard values" are already in the formula

http://www.wunderground.com/
wetaher^

http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_da.htm
da calc
So, you can go backwards in time on that site to the conditions shown for Joliet Illinois last evening?

yes at 945 pm it was 66* dew point was 55.4 and baro pressure was 29.96 i believe

yes at 945 pm it was 66* dew point was 55.4 and baro pressure was 29.96 i believe
Heh, cool! Actually, I think this concept may be unable to account for microclimates and some other variables, perhaps in accuracy of posting times...for my weather station and the Cobalts DIC showed different. But I am still impressed! Joliet's a big region, perhaps conditions were different at their reporting station.

definately would doubt it at all, still impressive what ever way you slice it

when r u gunna have stuff for sale? i want i want i want lol
and any check engine lights?
Shuold be very soon. We are taking orders for CatBacks now, and PPC Tuners should be in the mix as early as next week!
No check engine lights. We don't roll that way :)

pcc is gunna cost about a grand right? is the stock exhaust with 2 cats restictive enuf that u should replace it before gettin the PPC?

pcc is gunna cost about a grand right? is the stock exhaust with 2 cats restictive enuf that u should replace it before gettin the PPC?
Yes on PPC cost. You can start with our Cat-Back exhaust for the sound, or PPC for the power lunge...either way :)

i got my stock muffler just cut off n the stock tip rewielded for 30 dollars lol. im happy with the sounds so ill go for the ppc. keep us updated on its availabilty. ima stop going to bars n start saving now lol

very very nice bill..... can't wait to see where this thing goes

are you guys having probs with limp mode... what happened on the last run, when the driver shut down and restarted? or did he stall because of the second gear burnout?


well besides all that i havent seen someone launch a fwd car on street tires like that in a long time:twothumbs congrats to your driver for some amazing times (and to you of coarse for some amazing products)

are you guys having probs with limp mode... what happened on the last run, when the driver shut down and restarted? or did he stall because of the second gear burnout?


well besides all that i havent seen someone launch a fwd car on street tires like that in a long time:twothumbs congrats to your driver for some amazing times (and to you of coarse for some amazing products)
The only thing in 'limp mode' that time was me...I try not to be too aggressive when I pop the clutch in the burnout, and I think I had less water under the tires that time, so out went the lights. Oops!

Apparently I redeemed myself with the passes though :) Thanks very much for digging them! :D

I am working OT so far of tm night, and Saturday night and if I can work Sunday night(and ear some 7 day pay) you will hear from me:lol:

what drag radials would you recom. for our stock wheels. I believe this will be my first upgrade.

Great runs hahn! That is an impressive e.t. for sure.

But I have to say, it's funny about the people posting "stage 2 what?" cause stage 2 cars trap that speed, they just can't drive that well. Take my car for instance, who has trapped 100mph and ran a mid 13 other than me?

I'd say most SS/TC drivers that buy these mods, and it will be more expensive than a stage 2 SS/SC, probably won't get that low in the 13's, they'll probably run high 13's.

Oh, and choko's an idiot.

Dear Mr. Bill Hahn,

I would like to challenge you to a little s/c vs t/c on route 66. I'm a little more than a stage 2, and i know you will have a few more mods by then but that will show the rest of css.net that theses T/C balts are no joke at all. And how much potential there truly is. There will be 3 catagories - 60 ft. time, Trap Speed, and E.T. How does that sound?

Dear Mr. Bill Hahn,

I would like to challenge you to a little s/c vs t/c on route 66. I'm a little more than a stage 2, and i know you will have a few more mods by then but that will show the rest of css.net that theses T/C balts are no joke at all. And how much potential there truly is. There will be 3 catagories - 60 ft. time, Trap Speed, and E.T. How does that sound?

ill come too chris. let me know the details.


Im just Stage 2, solid tran mounts, and dual pass endplate... everything else stock :)

we can do 3 comparisions

how about you meat at the track..... and dont do just drag racing, hit up some autox

what so we can get raped by the ss/tc :lol:

how about you meat at the track..... and dont do just drag racing, hit up some autox

I would be willing to do that 2!lol i just want to show every1 a comparrison between a modded T/C and a S/C

LoL you guys are gonna check 60ft and trap times on a highway?>

LoL you guys are gonna check 60ft and trap times on a highway?>

readings>u

at rt. 66 we will compare that. auto-x would just be to compare the handling of the 2

i have not see a stage 2 go 13.2 on stock tires so what is the point ss/tc is faster

so these TC's gain three quarters of a second with catback and tune?

If so that's nuts.

Fully bolted and with slicks would be dang fast.

NICE GUYS! Now slap a S20G on it!

I'm curious how your going to meet the fuel demands of a more aggressive turbo swap, obviously alot of the parts on this engine are basically "one offs". Its not like you can just go out and get different injectors to swap in there. How far can the stock fuel system be taken?

Dear Mr. Bill Hahn,

I would like to challenge you to a little s/c vs t/c on route 66. I'm a little more than a stage 2, and i know you will have a few more mods by then but that will show the rest of css.net that theses T/C balts are no joke at all. And how much potential there truly is. There will be 3 catagories - 60 ft. time, Trap Speed, and E.T. How does that sound?
A clarification for everyone...Altiery means 'Route 66 Raceway', not just Route 66, the road :)

I like the concept, sounds like fun! We'll keep in touch on this.

You realize your name is the new name for the boosted ford engines getting ready to come out?

so these TC's gain three quarters of a second with catback and tune?

If so that's nuts.

Fully bolted and with slicks would be dang fast.
It is true. And yes, it is nuts!

I'm curious how your going to meet the fuel demands of a more aggressive turbo swap, obviously alot of the parts on this engine are basically "one offs". Its not like you can just go out and get different injectors to swap in there. How far can the stock fuel system be taken?
We've got many concepts in the works. Seems the stock injectors are good for about 400-ish engine HP. News at 11!

A clarification for everyone...Altiery means 'Route 66 Raceway', not just Route 66, the road :)

I like the concept, sounds like fun! We'll keep in touch on this.

Sounds good. Nothing like a little good fun for the rest of css.net watching a S/C getting murdered by a T/C with minimal mods. Or will I?;)

You realize your name is the new name for the boosted ford engines getting ready to come out?
Yes, I found this out some months ago...seems Ford has absconded with my screen name! Coincidence or not, they win...David does NOT beat Goliath in this instance :lol:

I will be changing it soon.

Or we can start a riot.

:lol:

Eff Ford, your s/n is way more important

Sounds good. Nothing like a little good fun for the rest of css.net watching a S/C getting murdered by a T/C with minimal mods. Or will I?;)

I think someone has a TVS up their sleeve.....

I think someone has a TVS up their sleeve.....

:beer::beer:

Why don't you get Bill too drive your SS/SC. With his experence he could get a Stg 2 Cobalt in the low 13's especially considering they run the same mph 105 at the top end.

:cssNET:

Man, now I have to clean my screen... Great numbers! As for the intercooler, arent the part numbers the same between the cobalt and the sky/solstice? If that is the case, would your current intercooler upgrade work on these cars?

Bill -

A couple of questions,

1. How do you handle the direct injection, and are the injectors essentially limitless? I know the MS3/MS6 had problems getting the direct injection mixes worked out. And I believe that motor uses a K04.

2. Have you begun tuning the cam timing profiles. We found noticable improvements on the Evo IX when adjusting the MIVEC.

3. The stock fuel maps appear very lean - how are your maps at 21psi?


Thx

Our VVT is constant, not like MIVEC and VTEC

Bill -

A couple of questions,

1. How do you handle the direct injection, and are the injectors essentially limitless? I know the MS3/MS6 had problems getting the direct injection mixes worked out. And I believe that motor uses a K04.

2. Have you begun tuning the cam timing profiles. We found noticable improvements on the Evo IX when adjusting the MIVEC.

3. The stock fuel maps appear very lean - how are your maps at 21psi?


Thx

One day, you'll make a post, and 'evo' won't be in it.
Maybe.

Man, now I have to clean my screen... Great numbers! As for the intercooler, arent the part numbers the same between the cobalt and the sky/solstice? If that is the case, would your current intercooler upgrade work on these cars?
No, there's no interchangeability here...the configurations are quite different. But that won't stop us...it will barely even slow us down ;)

I think someone has a TVS up their sleeve.....

he wishes he had a TVS

he wishes he had a TVS

ha yes yes i do. this winter i will have that or a nice turbo setup from mr. hahn

very nice numbers

Bill -

A couple of questions,

1. How do you handle the direct injection, and are the injectors essentially limitless? I know the MS3/MS6 had problems getting the direct injection mixes worked out. And I believe that motor uses a K04.

2. Have you begun tuning the cam timing profiles. We found noticable improvements on the Evo IX when adjusting the MIVEC.

3. The stock fuel maps appear very lean - how are your maps at 21psi?


Thx
1. We feel the limit is about 400 engine HP.
2. We are into cam timing with the tune, yes.
3. We don't find lean tendencies anywhere in the programming, stock or modded.

i has a stock blower. i can play too?

1. We feel the limit is about 400 engine HP.
2. We are into cam timing with the tune, yes.
3. We don't find lean tendencies anywhere in the programming, stock or modded.

Not sure how accurate the AFR plots are that I've seen, but it appears the car stays around upper 12s and into the 13s until 5K.. and then dips into the low 12s. I've always thought mid 11s across the board was safe.

Do you think there are still improvements to make with the tune itself - in the other areas (cam timing, ig timing, etc)?
I assume you are close to 340+ hp (crank) currently. So 60 away from the threshold.

And the reason why I asked about cam timing is we achieved a huge improvement in spool time when working with the MIVEC when going to a larger turbo. We picked up about a 700 rpm improvement, v when the Mivec was off.
So, a 20G on a VVT can be made to spool quicker by building cylinder pressure.

Curious how restrictive the stock exhaust is? I've heard not much, but how would it affect the gains posted by the PPC? Would they be similar then to the numbers posted on the website from the Kappa cars?

Well, awesome job again Hahn Racecraft & Bill. I can't wait until you guys start making more products & start selling them like hotcakes!

Cool stuff.

cobalt ss/sc vs in cobalt ss/tc in a nut shell. ss/sc>ss/tc in roll race. ss/sc<ss/tc from a dig

cobalt ss/sc vs in cobalt ss/tc in a nut shell. ss/sc>ss/tc in roll race. ss/sc<ss/tc from a dig

QFT but i wanna put that theory 2 the test:)

Sub-fucking-scribed.

QFT but i wanna put that theory 2 the test:)

u arent a s2 and s2 dont misfire

u arent a s2 and s2 dont misfire

lol my problems will be fixed shortly and i'll be running a 2.5" shortly

lol my problems will be fixed shortly and i'll be running a 2.5" shortly

u knw what that means..even cobra owners dont run 2.5

u knw what that means..even cobra owners dont run 2.5

????? i dont follow

????? i dont follow

DONT RUN IT!!!! seriously dude you will get no gain and just be pulling in heat..


unless you want a blown engine i suggest you dont

haha


chris, you know who to listen to.

????? i dont follow

I'll leave the surprise to you...with all this humidity in chicago and the amount of heat the eaton puts out,danm its gonna be bad

haha


chris, you know who to listen to.

:lol::lol:

DONT RUN IT!!!! seriously dude you will get no gain and just be pulling in heat..


unless you want a blown engine i suggest you dont

that means i would get to re-build:)

and waste more money on something u can acheive by just turboing? and it would be reliable

Far to many people have the concept 2.5"= blown motor. It does not dumb people= blown motors

2.5 is to small for our blowers and is WAY out of efficiency range.

lol lets stop getting off subject here i'll start my own thread.
http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/showthread.php?t=120466
sry. Mr. Hahn /thread jacking

a stage 2 pulley is to whats your point? Trust me i think i have my bases covered talking about this topic. Lets not clog this thread with anymore banter.

What are 'pulleys'? LOL, j/k ;)

Yes, let's get back on track :cssNET:

what I find funny is that hahn goes out and busts a 13.2@104, and all these newbs think that they are gonna throw the same mods on and run a 13.2 also. LOL, if you haven't noticed, the stage 2 SS/SC's run about the same trap speed, but are nowhere near as fast in the quarter. Hahn is an excellent driver and has found the sweet spots on the SS/TC. I doubt 99% of the people on this board duplicate those times. Maybe the trap speed, but not those times.

Again, props to you Hahn, you driving SOB. lol

Don't forget that as well as an experienced driver, No Lift Shift and Launch Control are big factors in low trap speeds with fast times.

what I find funny is that hahn goes out and busts a 13.2@104, and all these newbs think that they are gonna throw the same mods on and run a 13.2 also. LOL, if you haven't noticed, the stage 2 SS/SC's run about the same trap speed, but are nowhere near as fast in the quarter. Hahn is an excellent driver and has found the sweet spots on the SS/TC. I doubt 99% of the people on this board duplicate those times. Maybe the trap speed, but not those times.

Again, props to you Hahn, you driving SOB. lol

i want to see whos a better driver hahn vs ralliarst right now hahn has the advantage in my eyes but ralliarst is damn close. props 2 both of u for carving the way

Wow - burnout on street tires FTL.....but other than that - great proof of the mod improvements!!!!!!

Just have to make sure the power stays and the stock PCM doesn't try to ruin it all down the line.....

i want to see whos a better driver hahn vs ralliarst right now hahn has the advantage in my eyes but ralliarst is damn close. props 2 both of u for carving the way

i wouldnt mind crusing with hahn and running that ss/tc at the 1320.

i wouldnt mind crusing with hahn and running that ss/tc at the 1320.

well thats up 2 mr. hahn we should set up a little something like this

T/C vs S/C
S/C vs skittle
T/C vs skittle

we're all not far from rt.66 and i think it would show the rest of .net how a modded T/C compares to a modded skittle and a modded S/C

well thats up 2 mr. hahn we should set up a little something like this

T/C vs S/C
S/C vs skittle
T/C vs skittle

we're all not far from rt.66 and i think it would show the rest of .net how a modded T/C compares to a modded skittle and a modded S/C

It would depend on the mods.

All stock for stock would be an interesting race.

It would depend on the mods.

All stock for stock would be an interesting race.

hahn the way it is or a few more little mods, me with mods in sig and a 2.6 or a 2.5 mybe and superss i have no clue what hes got done

what I find funny is that hahn goes out and busts a 13.2@104, and all these newbs think that they are gonna throw the same mods on and run a 13.2 also. LOL, if you haven't noticed, the stage 2 SS/SC's run about the same trap speed, but are nowhere near as fast in the quarter. Hahn is an excellent driver and has found the sweet spots on the SS/TC. I doubt 99% of the people on this board duplicate those times. Maybe the trap speed, but not those times.

Again, props to you Hahn, you driving SOB. lol
:) Thanks! I appreciate your kudos as to my driving chops, and I am glad you point this out, for it's a very important aspect.

The times I will cut with our cars are usually quite optimized, and often hard for folks in the field to duplicate. It's a situation that has 'ringer' written all over it:

Driver: skilled
Tuning: skilled
Track: awesome

So yes, new drivers will struggle to duplicate this performance, and they should know that so as not to be disappointed. The best suggestion I have for anyone who wants to drag race their TC effectively is this: get another set of wheels and tires for track use. You won't tear up your stock Conti's, which are much better suited to the street for handling.

On the other hand, if you like a challenge, I've set the bar high...go for it! I'm good, but I ain't God, and I am sure others can equal this with practice.

I'll set this out there too...for the heck of it, I'll gladly take a shot at a local SC car on the track, just to see what's there for apples-to-apples comparo. I will try my best, for I really would like to see a more effective comparo, and I might be able to even offer some tips for you SC guys to use yourselves. Perhaps Altiery's car :)

Don't forget that as well as an experienced driver, No Lift Shift and Launch Control are big factors in low trap speeds with fast times.
Quite true, although for accuracy's sake (not bragging) I didn't use launch control (see first post for mere detail).

can I ask...what benefits are there from the following:

-lowering tire pressure on a street tire (doesn't this minimize the contact patch of the tire?)
-burning out on street tires (doesn't this make the tire slip more and limit traction?)

just curious...

Wow - burnout on street tires FTL.....but other than that - great proof of the mod improvements!!!!!!
Heh, well...we always cut better 60's with some heat in the street tires :) Plus it's just fun! And thanks too.

i would love some tips on launching the SS/SC and on doing burnouts to heat the tires on the SS/SC... i cant seem to get them to really roast

btw its not stock tires... Eagle F1s

i want to see whos a better driver hahn vs ralliarst right now hahn has the advantage in my eyes but ralliarst is damn close. props 2 both of u for carving the way

thanks for the props, the question will be, once I get my car trapping 104, if I can get a better time or not. I hope to break 12's without having to to go too much faster than I already am. Everytime I go to the track, my 60's get better and better.

can I ask...what benefits are there from the following:

-lowering tire pressure on a street tire (doesn't this minimize the contact patch of the tire?)
-burning out on street tires (doesn't this make the tire slip more and limit traction?)

just curious...
The lower tire pressure helps, but only to a degree...I went down to 24 PSI. Any more than that and it starts to lose contact in the center of the footprint due to the stiff sidewalls. And the burnouts do help! The numbers we achieved bear all of this out :)

Lets not forget that trap was with a 2.0x 60'............. Which is very impressive.

I have trapped 103 in Stage 2.. but with a crappy 60'... If my 60' goes down, so does the trap. But ET goes up...

So I wouldn't compare Stage 2 traps from most drivers who ARE NOT going to cut 2.0 60' on stock tires. (Such as myself lol).

thanks for the props, the question will be, once I get my car trapping 104, if I can get a better time or not. I hope to break 12's without having to to go too much faster than I already am. Everytime I go to the track, my 60's get better and better.

well i hope u do man.:twothumbs

ive cut a 2.0 60ft on stock ss/sc tires. :D i just want more advice to get them to dip into the 1.9s and i really need to learn to burnout with this car.

ive cut a 2.0 60ft on stock ss/sc tires. :D i just want more advice to get them to dip into the 1.9s and i really need to learn to burnout with this car.I sense an 'At Track Clinic' coming up in the near future for you Chicago region folks :)

I sense an 'At Track Clinic' coming up in the near future for you Chicago region folks :)

that would be sweet :D

i would love to meet you bill and see how a pro does it :lol:

just do the same thing hahn says he did, pull up to the water box, put the car in 2nd gear, pull up the ebrake, and smoke the tires until you actually see smoke. Then release the brake and pull forward. Put the car in 1st and proceed to race.

I sense an 'At Track Clinic' coming up in the near future for you Chicago region folks :)

:lol::lol:

silent'd would be first in line!!!

i guess i would be second

:lol::lol:

silent'd would be first in line!!!

i guess i would be second

:lol::lol:

and ya im going to try second gear, i never thought of that hahahha

:lol::lol:

and ya im going to try second gear, i never thought of that hahahha

thats IF u still have the ss by then

thats IF u still have the ss by then

i cant sell this if i was giving it away ..........its ridiculous

i cant sell this if i was giving it away ..........its ridiculous

donate it

:lol:

Great work Bill, glad to see that the future is looking to be fast for the new Cobalts.

what I find funny is that hahn goes out and busts a 13.2@104, and all these newbs think that they are gonna throw the same mods on and run a 13.2 also. LOL, if you haven't noticed, the stage 2 SS/SC's run about the same trap speed, but are nowhere near as fast in the quarter. Hahn is an excellent driver and has found the sweet spots on the SS/TC. I doubt 99% of the people on this board duplicate those times. Maybe the trap speed, but not those times.

Again, props to you Hahn, you driving SOB. lol

yeah you saw how he nailed it on the last one! rode the clutch just perfect no wheel spin...

i havent seen that in a long time from a fwd car... mad driving skills there...

Damn That Was A Sick Vid!!:cssNET:
NICE RUN AND GOOD NUMBERS:guns:
Nice Burn Outs Too:lol::cssNET::lol:

what I find funny is that hahn goes out and busts a 13.2@104, and all these newbs think that they are gonna throw the same mods on and run a 13.2 also. LOL, if you haven't noticed, the stage 2 SS/SC's run about the same trap speed, but are nowhere near as fast in the quarter. Hahn is an excellent driver and has found the sweet spots on the SS/TC. I doubt 99% of the people on this board duplicate those times. Maybe the trap speed, but not those times.

Again, props to you Hahn, you driving SOB. lol

yes he may be a good driver which counts for a lot but those facts support this guy's theory...

cobalt ss/sc vs in cobalt ss/tc in a nut shell. ss/sc>ss/tc in roll race. ss/sc<ss/tc from a dig

I agree with his theory because the reason why the sc has same trap but slower time in the 1/4 is most likely because the sc is simply faster from a dig through the 1/8th then it runs out of steam after that just like a lot of sc 4 cyl cars typically do. tc cars typically sort of lag so to speak out of the hole then accelerate faster as they gain momentum which makes them faster in the top end.

heh, picked it up Friday night after work :)


hehe, i got flamed big time for beating on mine when i just got it. i guess you get bypassed on that one..lol.


awesome job! are you taking orders for the parts or are you still fine tuning the programming? one more question and i know i will liklely get flamed on this one. i use my ss for everyday commuting. what will the tune do to the mpg if anything? also does it effect the warranty?

i has a stock blower. i can play too?

hahaha tuning god (maybe next to bill hahn) with the right mods wants to play... how much did you see gain from cams?

the problem with doing burnouts with street tires is simple. most people don't know where to draw the line. they usully over do it and get them greasy and useless.

street tires + water = bad.

hehe, i got flamed big time for beating on mine when i just got it. i guess you get bypassed on that one..lol.


awesome job! are you taking orders for the parts or are you still fine tuning the programming? one more question and i know i will liklely get flamed on this one. i use my ss for everyday commuting. what will the tune do to the mpg if anything? also does it effect the warranty?
We did pile the miles on it to get it broken in, then change oil and filter before play...you should see all the bugs on her, as we drove it for hours every night to get there!

We are taking orders for exhausts now, yes. Tuners should be ready to take orders next week. We'll announce when this occurs. If you like, get on our mailing list for Cobalt by emailing sales@turbosystem.com.

MPG is not affected...I'm still averaging over 30 in daily commuting.

Warranty is not something we can assure of...anything you do to your car to enhance performance can affect your powertrain warranty coverage. GM's obligation extends to the stock power level, and no more :)

damn 23 psi already!
very impressive numbers.
if only i had another 9 psi to play with :D

hahaha tuning god (maybe next to bill hahn) with the right mods wants to play... how much did you see gain from cams?

squishy nipples?

dunno. i haven't stuck it on the dyno yet

yes he may be a good driver which counts for a lot but those facts support this guy's theory...



I agree with his theory because the reason why the sc has same trap but slower time in the 1/4 is most likely because the sc is simply faster from a dig through the 1/8th then it runs out of steam after that just like a lot of sc 4 cyl cars typically do. tc cars typically sort of lag so to speak out of the hole then accelerate faster as they gain momentum which makes them faster in the top end.

those are horrible assumptions, especially considering that we've already seen a vid of a ss/sc vs a ss/tc and the ss/tc was faster through the 1/8th and then the ss/sc reeled him in the back half.

squishy nipples?

dunno. i haven't stuck it on the dyno yet

I love it when you make any posts in threads, it's priceless!

yes he may be a good driver which counts for a lot but those facts support this guy's theory...

Yep sure does . It is possible to make a SC car et more appropriate for the MPH if u can take the time to really figure out what the hell it wants . Theres plenty of stg 2 cars that out ET both ralli's and mine , but few of them out ET us . Hatrickstu is another great examaple of things gone right on the way down the 1320 .

Pending on when this comparo at rt 66 happens I would love to join if I can get away from work ....I has new stuff . Maybe it would motivate me to actually intall the new parts :lol:

20.0 mph in the back half
vs 25.X from mine

hmmmmmmm

those are horrible assumptions, especially considering that we've already seen a vid of a ss/sc vs a ss/tc and the ss/tc was faster through the 1/8th and then the ss/sc reeled him in the back half.


the reason for that could easily be "a drivers race" though too. I cant explain every race, especially ones that I havent seen myself. Thats why I explained it the way I did instead of saying I know for a fact and thats why I said typically the sc cars have more punch down low, and the tc have more power up top which is true a lot of the time. On the other hand every setup is different especially when you're talking about all cars, not just cobalts. Why do you think people say sc setups in terms of fi are better for the street over tc???? Because for 1 tc have lag and 2 they dont make their peak hp until near the top of their powerband. Hell some tc setups I've seen dont even make hardly any boost in 1st gear at all no matter where you are at in your rpms!

btw I might be a newb to this forum, but I definitely not a newb to cars...

easy. you're backwards. peak power is relivant to the size of turbo and where it is at in the band itself.

comparing an old dyno sheet of my sc car vs the hahn tc car shows me something simple. his car makes more power than mine, makes more torque than mine. yet i have more than 5 mph on him in the back half, and over 4 mph in total trap speed.

not exactly. I side with ralliartist on this. I raced the tc in the video and even with my bad start, I trapped 77 in the 1/8 and almost 101 in the 1/4, as where he trapped 80 in the 1/8 and 99 in the 1/4. He was using the no lift shift as well. I have a modified stage 2 setup and I don't lose any pull in the upper range. I have trouble hooking up from the start.

easy. you're backwards. peak power is relivant to the size of turbo and where it is at in the band itself.

comparing an old dyno sheet of my sc car vs the hahn tc car shows me something simple. his car makes more power than mine, makes more torque than mine. yet i have more than 5 mph on him in the back half, and over 4 mph in total trap speed.
Some things for comparison (Ive listed all I can think of, Area and others are likely already aware of some of these):


The conditions when we dyno'ed were better than race night
Our dyno numbers are STD, so...a little optimistic
We find that our IAT's could stand improvement at higher speeds (a better intercooler will alleviate this)
The TC makes outstanding low-end torque, which will show itself more in 1/8 mile numbers and 1/4 mile ET than trap
Our tune is really designed to maximize 0-60 and passing times...for durability's sake, we tone it down a bit above 100 MPH
This car weighed in at 3165 lbs. with me in it..I am guessing that since it's loaded with every possible option and airbag, that's heavier than Area's

what kind of IATs do they run stock...and at 23 psi?
curious about that

what kind of IATs do they run stock...and at 23 psi?
curious about that
We've got to do more detailed analysis...I don't have an accurate answer just yet.

Fortunately, the stock intercooler is pretty generously sized, it just heat soaks quicker with the additional power we are making. Not dangerously so, mind you...but in the quest for greater power coupled with enhanced durability, we will play this card :) Plus, we will install an intercooler that will absorb anything we throw at the car in the future as we upgrade the turbo and keep moving forward.

Here's the unit we use in Solstice and Sky...it's massive! (http://www.turbosystem.com/New_Folder/SolsticeGXPRedline/GXP%20Redline%20Intercooler%20Sell%20Page.htm)

easy. you're backwards. peak power is relivant to the size of turbo and where it is at in the band itself.

comparing an old dyno sheet of my sc car vs the hahn tc car shows me something simple. his car makes more power than mine, makes more torque than mine. yet i have more than 5 mph on him in the back half, and over 4 mph in total trap speed.


how often do you see a turbo set up make peak hp at around 3k rpm and then fall on its ass? hardly never....and are your 60 fts the same? is your weight the same, did he have a full gas tank was your near empty? there are so many factors involved it can be hard to say why sometimes but I can tell you that honda tech has been debating this shit for years even after one test & experiment after another. and this is always the end result... SC< TC. SC has more pull in the low end and the tc has more pull top end. Oh I have an idea why doesnt someone get a video of both cars going from a roll and see what happens?

bill. i still got a few lbs on ya pookie.

amp, subs, laptop, power invertor, HU can box, 20lbs of cleanin shit in the trunk

lol!

so i take it we can log the ss/t with hpt?

when will u make that intercooler fit the T/C the hahn on the front just makes me want it lol

next week, my friend and I are going back to the track to get more videos. Both of us are new to drag racing, and are still learning, but the comparison should be similar somewhat to what you guys are setting up now.

how often do you see a turbo set up make peak hp at around 3k rpm and then fall on its ass? hardly never....and are your 60 fts the same? is your weight the same, did he have a full gas tank was your near empty? there are so many factors involved it can be hard to say why sometimes but I can tell you that honda tech has been debating this shit for years even after one test & experiment after another. and this is always the end result... SC< TC. SC has more pull in the low end and the tc has more pull top end. Oh I have an idea why doesnt someone get a video of both cars going from a roll and see what happens?


old dyno from my sc
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m284/Area47/dyno273.jpg

http://www.turbosystem.com/ProjectVehicles/New_Folder/Cobalt/Stock%20vs%20PPC_small.gif

http://imagepimp.us/files/l6i72o5p25aiy06qsvtj.jpg

which one has more top end

in bills defense. his does not show torque.

when will u make that intercooler fit the T/C the hahn on the front just makes me want it lol
Very soon! The next Tuesday night track session is the 15th, and we want to be there with sticky tires and our new intercooler.

don't believe in wasting time do you?

you cant tell which car is gonna have more pull at high speeds just by looking at the dyno charts especially when one of the charts is missing the torque. thats is all dependent on the power band gearing and shift points. Just because your one chart says that peak power (289hp) is made @ 5200 rpms doesnt necessarily mean that you're supposed to shift at 5200, thats where the questions of hp torque and gearing come into play.

you can by the powerband itself. you're making this harder than it needs to be.

hot rod mag did a huge test a while back. centrifugal blower vs turbo vs roots type supercharger.

same engine. same boost levels on each. do some diggin. i bet you will find the answer amazing.

don't believe in wasting time do you?
We will be relentless. This may sound blunt, and even a little arrogant...but the SS/TC was made for us!
So to speak, of course...we've been turbocharging FWD Ecotecs since 2002, and to finally have this jewel is like a dream come true :cssNET:

like I said before, this car is three years late.

you can by the powerband itself. you're making this harder than it needs to be.

hot rod mag did a huge test a while back. centrifugal blower vs turbo vs roots type supercharger.

same engine. same boost levels on each. do some diggin. i bet you will find the answer amazing.


what turbo were they using on what motor? I'm sure it would be amazing to me because apparently the boys at honda tech know turbocharging because I have yet to see ANY SC set up beat a turbo setup even when they both produce similar numbers. If there are any they are very few. Their trick to it is put a huge snail on it that doesnt start spooling until 4-4.5k and increases in power and torque all the way past 8k rpms.... honda dont make shit for torque unless you're spraying or got a blower on them and obviously the torque output which comes in the low end on those kinds of set ups isnt helping them because the tc will pull on them at the end everytime. I know I'm comparing hondas to chevys here so I'll probably get flamed and I still could be wrong about this in some cases but I dont care... TC>SC when it comes to drag racing hands down.... I wonder if your R&D guys could find a way to raise the rev limit past 7 atleast and put a bigger turbo in it if you guys are will see a 11 or even 10 sec cobalt in the near future.

If I may...I'd like to graciously request that this thread stay in the wonderfully cooperative mode it's been so far, and not devolve into a SC vs TC skirmish. I'll even say 'please' :)

always the diplomat.

It would be so cool if we had the ability to "moderate" our own threads...

then the mods wouldn't have "absolute power".

It seems this thread has brought out some Chicago-region interest in a get-together at Route 66. I'd like to see this happen. I love the place!

What say I start a new thread to drum up interest? We could just meet there during a Test n Tune evening or weekend day. I don't really care if we get three cars or 30, it would be fun.

I hate you guys. I have to drive 85 miles to get to a so-so track.

lol I feel the love...yeah everyone is thinkin oh shit we got another honda guy trying to teach us somethin. :rolleyes: but for the record it wasnt my intention to create tension here over a sc vs. tc debate. Only to add some input to the discussion because it seems as though some people in here are trying to down play the tc cobalt saying that the sc is still faster w/ stage 2 and what not when the fact of the matter here remains that in the long run the cobalt tc is going to have more potential power wise(with consideration to how far they can push the injectors on it until they come out with an upgrade over stock) and it seems the guys that own the sc are just hatin because they wish the tc was available when they were looking to buy. lol That blower is maxed out practically after stage 2 and then what? bigger blower? nitrous? or go turbo? hmmmm I think the majority of people here would choose turbo if they were givin the immediate choice.

we still need to get mine to the track bill, hopefully soon as i get back!

nobody is hating at all. There are just points that are being put out. I have raced a tc with the video link on this website and they are about even. Mine is modified a little above a stg 2 but it is about even. All of us know the turbo application will in the end have more potential, but don't think that we'll just lay down and play dead. As far as your comment about us wanting the tc, I still wouldn't have bought it if it was out. I would have bought a srt-4 if I really cared specifically for getting a turboed car. The blown 4 banger is different and unique..., that's why I bought it. If our cars were equipped with the tvs from the start then this would be a completely different argument.

1.Super_ss(SRT4)

we still need to get mine to the track bill, hopefully soon as i get back!You bet, dude!

sleeper here is one of our beta cars for our 2.0 TurboConversion system. This posse is still on the front burner...we are finishing up the first run of turbosystems, and man, they are sexy! Reminds me, I owe those fellas an email update. :)

Fact is, sleeper's 20G turbo '07 2.0 SS is going to be quicker than my new TC for a while, heh. Can't wait to see it head down the track on the 15th too! Maybe we'll get my son Adam and his Sunfire up there for some Eco-madness too...

Ecotec Turbo Sunfire (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Hahn-RaceCraft-Sunfire-66_169702.htm)

You bet, dude!

sleeper here is one of our beta cars for our 2.0 TurboConversion system. This posse is still on the front burner...we are finishing up the first run of turbosystems, and man, they are sexy! Reminds me, I owe those fellas an email update. :)

Fact is, sleeper's 20G turbo '07 2.0 SS is going to be quicker than my new TC for a while, heh. Can't wait to see it head down the track on the 15th too! Maybe we'll get my son Adam and his Sunfire up there for some Eco-madness too...

Ecotec Turbo Sunfire (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Hahn-RaceCraft-Sunfire-66_169702.htm)

did you want m to take off the 15th from work and plan on goin to route 66?

did you want m to take off the 15th from work and plan on goin to route 66?

Why yes :twothumbs

As a matter of fact, I shall go start a new thread to see who else would like to come :)
I'll post the URL here in a bit.

easy101, I think you are just missing the points that area47 is trying to make. But instead of polluting this thread even more. Why not start a new thread or take it to pms? I know area47 would be more than happy to point you in the right direction with links to what he is talking about.

back on subject, hahn, a track day with a bunch of different setups, all on cobalts still, would be great! be sure to post vids and pics when you guys do it!

bill. bring that thing to kc
:)

it's only an 8hour drive!

Here's the new thread:

Route 66 Raceway Hang Out n Play (http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2551344#post2551344)

I hate you guys. I have to drive 85 miles to get to a so-so track.

VMP isn't so so, just a long ass drive. Richmond, well it's cheaper and sometimes you can get a decent prep.

Used to live there myself, your friend with the TC met up with me here when we first got the rides.

GL with more dragracing.

BTW, if you don't mind the drive, I hear MIR is the shit.

1.Super_ss(SRT4)

1.Super_ss(SRT4)
2.Altiery54(SS S/C)

This sounds sweet, to bad i don't live near there, can't wait tell the tune and other parts come out, nice numbers, keep up the good work.:twothumbs

We corner weighed the SS/TC today (sunroof) - its very impressive. I'll post up the corner weights with and without spare and driver.

VMP isn't so so, just a long ass drive. Richmond, well it's cheaper and sometimes you can get a decent prep.

Used to live there myself, your friend with the TC met up with me here when we first got the rides.

GL with more dragracing.

BTW, if you don't mind the drive, I hear MIR is the shit.

It would have to be a group to go up there for a weekend. But that is a good idea.

It seems this thread has brought out some Chicago-region interest in a get-together at Route 66. I'd like to see this happen. I love the place!

What say I start a new thread to drum up interest? We could just meet there during a Test n Tune evening or weekend day. I don't really care if we get three cars or 30, it would be fun.

Ill swing down. on way back to NY

how much are you looking to spoend dfor that catback and tune

Awesome videos, sorry if it was asked, but what do you have the tire pressure set at?

Awesome videos, sorry if it was asked, but what do you have the tire pressure set at?

24 PSI

24 PSI

20psi it was

Sweet thanks, they looked pretty damn low...

20psi it was

No sir, stock tires, at 24 PSI-ecoboost posted that

No sir, stock tires, at 24 PSI-ecoboost posted that

thought i read 20 somewhere,oh well

I believe bill is onto something when he says launching these cars is best done blipping the throttle repeatedly to build revs and then launching at say 2500 - 3000 rpm. I have been practicing this and my SS/SC takes off like a bat out of hell. If I hold the rpms at 3000 and then launch its COMPLETELY different! Try it, you will be amazed how quick your cobalt ss/sc really can launch!

its 24psi but who's reading? right!

its 24psi but who's reading? right!

i guess u are :twothumbs

i guess u are :twothumbs

rep for me?

rep for me?

yup invisible rep