Coming soon to a driveway near you....the Hardcore Big Brake upgrade.

311mm dimpled, directional, curved vane 2 piece floating rotor, caliper relocation bracket, and required hardware are included. This kit is exactly as used on the Time Attack and Koni Challenge racecars.

This is a direct bolt on to SS/SC, SS/2.4, and IRLs, you continue to use your stock calipers, hoses and pads of your choosing. No brake bleeding is required to install. 5 lug LTs will need to upgrade to the SS caliper. No 4 lug option is available(....yet.....)

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/eco_maven/utf-8BSU1HMDAxNjAtMjAwOTA0MDgtMTE1N.jpg

that "yet" part better turn into a "coming soon" or ill be real disappointed

I wanna go fast before I wanna stop :)

I will be keeping an eye on these though

holy cow look at the size of that frisbee

how streetable will these be maven?

Coming soon to a driveway near you....the Hardcore Big Brake upgrade.

311mm dimpled, directional, curved vane 2 piece floating rotor, caliper relocation bracket, and required hardware are included. This kit is exactly as used on the Time Attack and Koni Challenge racecars.

This is a direct bolt on to SS/SC, SS/2.4, and IRLs, you continue to use your stock calipers, hoses and pads of your choosing. No brake bleeding is required to install. 5 lug LTs will need to upgrade to the SS caliper. No 4 lug option is available(....yet.....)

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/eco_maven/utf-8BSU1HMDAxNjAtMjAwOTA0MDgtMTE1N.jpg

yeah that's the solution. throw a bigger rotor on (most likely weighing more) without having a bigger caliper or dual piston plus caliper. your using the same surface area pads etc. This is a big was of time and money. The only thing it's going to do is possibly increase heat dissapation but that's all if anything. Don't waste your time guys.

yeah that's the solution. throw a bigger rotor on (most likely weighing more) without having a bigger caliper or dual piston plus caliper. your using the same surface area pads etc. This is a big was of time and money. The only thing it's going to do is possibly increase heat dissapation but that's all if anything. Don't waste your time guys.

heat dissipation is the ONLY purpose of a big brake kit. If heat dissipation wasnt the enemy in braking, we'd all still be using drums...
cmon dude...

dont waste your time? then why did the time attack team see fit to put these on the car? for shits and giggles? these will be my next braking set-up. got to love all the time attack part coming out from OTTP!

heat dissipation is the ONLY purpose of a big brake kit. If heat dissipation wasnt the enemy in braking, we'd all still be using drums...
cmon dude...

seriously bro? the ONLY purpose? your right it has nothing to do with surface area to grip and actually stop the car....riggghhhhttt.

dont waste your time? then why did the time attack team see fit to put these on the car? for shits and giggles? these will be my next braking set-up. got to love all the time attack part coming out from OTTP!

i have a feeling they actually upgraded the calipers.

seriously bro? the ONLY purpose? your right it has nothing to do with surface area to grip and actually stop the car....riggghhhhttt.



i have a feeling they actually upgraded the calipers.

you need to think for a second. If you slam the brakes, the rotor completely stops spinning, and the wheels lock, right? Right!

Clamping force is NOT the limiting factor in braking, traction of the tires is. And the brake pedal begins to feel squishy after the rotor has heat soaked, so heat is the limiting factor in repeated stopping.

A larger caliper would be nice, to increase the surface area of pad to rotor contact when brake fading does occur, but if the rotor is big enough to eliminate brake fading, then there is zero point in having a larger caliper. Basically, a larger caliper is just a bandaid for when brake fading does occur

The caliper would have to be a great deal bigger to really make any kind of difference, and they usually arent in these brake kits. Theyre usually only a little bigger than stock. As long as the caliper is contacting the entire rotor surface at some point to ensure even wear of the rotor, then thats all that matters.

And uhhh...as per the OP, this is the EXACT setup of the time attack cobalt...not just the same rotor

seriously bro? the ONLY purpose? your right it has nothing to do with surface area to grip and actually stop the car....riggghhhhttt.



i have a feeling they actually upgraded the calipers.

no sir, the koni challenge cars used upgraded rotors and Pagid RS-14 brake pads up front and all factory stuff in the rear

you need to think for a second. If you slam the brakes, the rotor completely stops spinning, and the wheels lock, right? Right!

Clamping force is NOT the limiting factor in braking, traction of the tires is. And the brake pedal begins to feel squishy after the rotor has heat soaked, so heat is the limiting factor in repeated stopping.

A larger caliper would be nice, to increase the surface area of pad to rotor contact when brake fading does occur, but if the rotor is big enough to eliminate brake fading, then there is zero point in having a larger caliper. Basically, a larger caliper is just a bandaid for when brake fading does occur

The caliper would have to be a great deal bigger to really make any kind of difference, and they usually arent in these brake kits. Theyre usually only a little bigger than stock. As long as the caliper is contacting the entire rotor surface at some point to ensure even wear of the rotor, then thats all that matters.

And uhhh...as per the OP, this is the EXACT setup of the time attack cobalt...not just the same rotor

i'd like to see some actual results and not the word from someone who thinks this is the absolute truth. and yeah heat soak is a problem but i would bet that gripping force would end up stopping your car alot faster and quicker than a bigger rotor lol. i'd say this is an autox preference. i still don't think that just increasing the rotor itself will have such a tremendous affect on heat dissapation at all.

and uhhh like it reads it includes the rotor and caliber mounting bracket/hardware. and it is just the supposed same rotor and bracket. big deal.

also time attack cobalt brakes:

Brakes: 111.6 / 296 x 1.02 / 26; vented discs front 0.6 / 270 x .55 / 14; solid discs

For what it is worth, these 'kits' are being down in conjuction with the company who built the Time Attack Cobalt.

you need to think for a second. If you slam the brakes, the rotor completely stops spinning, and the wheels lock, right? Right!

Clamping force is NOT the limiting factor in braking, traction of the tires is. And the brake pedal begins to feel squishy after the rotor has heat soaked, so heat is the limiting factor in repeated stopping.

A larger caliper would be nice, to increase the surface area of pad to rotor contact when brake fading does occur, but if the rotor is big enough to eliminate brake fading, then there is zero point in having a larger caliper. Basically, a larger caliper is just a bandaid for when brake fading does occur

The caliper would have to be a great deal bigger to really make any kind of difference, and they usually arent in these brake kits. Theyre usually only a little bigger than stock. As long as the caliper is contacting the entire rotor surface at some point to ensure even wear of the rotor, then thats all that matters.

And uhhh...as per the OP, this is the EXACT setup of the time attack cobalt...not just the same rotor
So does that mean that this rotor swap will give better braking than the SS/TC Brembo set-up?

If your into AutoX I'd say go for it, but when it comes down to raw stopping power for the guys putting down big power, you need a big brake kit(2 or 4 piston).

For what it is worth, these 'kits' are being down in conjuction with the company who built the Time Attack Cobalt.

well i'll go along with whatever Rod says lol

So does that mean that this rotor swap will give better braking than the SS/TC Brembo set-up?

i hardly doubt it. i'd put money on it. get them together and test it out.

If your into AutoX I'd say go for it, but when it comes down to raw stopping power for the guys putting down big power, you need a big brake kit(4 piston).

like i said.

If your into AutoX I'd say go for it, but when it comes down to raw stopping power for the guys putting down big power, you need a big brake kit(4 piston).

dude if you need to brake harder than the time attack/koni challenge cobalts, i would never want to ride in a car with you. :lol:

all props to OTTP and good luck to anyone with this kit. just think there are much better options. and im out lol

dude if you need to brake harder than the time attack/koni challenge cobalts, i would never want to ride in a car with you. :lol:

The time attack cobalt doesn't need to drive on the roads and stop in case someone runs out in front of them. The time attack cobalt did something like 280 whp off nitrous. There are turbo cars doing 400 plus.

If your into AutoX I'd say go for it, but when it comes down to raw stopping power for the guys putting down big power, you need a big brake kit(2 or 4 piston).

oi. If you need to brake harder, push the pedal harder!
Tires are ALWAYS the limiting component in braking unless you have performed several (10+) very hard stops repeatedly in a very short period of time, in which case heat becomes the issue. Caliper size will not change your stopping distance!

Most magazines/companies, when making estimates, can determine a vehicles 60-0 distance by tire size, coef. of friction, weight of the car, ad weight distribution. Caliper size, nor brake fluid, nor rubber vs braided steel lines, nor rotor size are EVER a factor UNLESS the rotors have become too hot to allow you to push the brake pedal down enough to clamp down on the rotor. Therefore, again, eliminating heat buildup is the best way to ensure consistent braking, and a larger caliper is just a bandaid for brake setups that CANT keep the heat at bay

This post isnt just directed at you or impulse, but there is a VERY LARGE percentage of the world who thinks larger rotors or pads or calipers etc will shorten your 60-0 distance, when none of these will.

The time attack cobalt doesn't need to drive on the roads and stop in case someone runs out in front of them. The time attack cobalt did something like 280 whp off nitrous. There are turbo cars doing 400 plus.

time attack made 400 on nitrous. 350-360 on stock cams with a high helix m62. and the time attack cars doesnt need to brake hard with cars in front of them? :facepalm:

hunter...just wondering. do you actually have any documented proof of how you think that bigger calipers and pads will not help 60-0 times because i would love to see that.

hunter...just wondering. do you actually have any documented proof of how you think that bigger calipers and pads will not help 60-0 times because i would love to see that.

its physics....

Here's a better question: Do you have even a slight guess as to how they WOULD shorten your 60-0? Since the stock caliper has plenty enough surface area to lock the tires, that would mean that the tires would be the limiting factor, wouldnt it?

Prove me wrong

its physics....

Here's a better question: Do you have even a slight guess as to how they WOULD shorten your 60-0? Since the stock caliper has plenty enough surface area to lock the tires, that would mean that the tires would be the limiting factor, wouldnt it?

Prove me wrong

i would think it takes alot more strength to slow the rotation and momentum of the car/ rotor than to lock it up. like you said, after locking up the rotor the tire is the only stopping point of the car. but what you really want is a combination of the two. the coefficient of friction of the tires with the road and weight on them and also the friction between the brake pads and the rotor, hence both dissapating the energy/ momentum and stopping the car. Another reason for having antilock brakes.

there you go

to brake all the bullshit down....in the end i highly believe
-large calipers with more pistons will have more of an affect and better braking that just increasing the size of the rotor. Then again this could all be preference as to if you are an autoxer or a daily street driver who needs that stopping power security for the ounce in a while hard braking. I think actual proof would be in order like any experiment with a given hypothesis etc.

i would think it takes alot more strength to slow the rotation and momentum of the car/ rotor than to lock it up. like you said, after locking up the rotor the tire is the only stopping point of the car. but what you really want is a combination of the two. the coefficient of friction of the tires with the road and weight on them and also the friction between the brake pads and the rotor, hence both dissapating the energy.

what you said would prove why you dont want to just lock the tires, and i completely agree, however, clamping force is not an issue though. lets say if you push the brake 90% in with a stock caliper/rotor, then the tires lock. If you push more than that, then the amount of gripping force stopping the rotor becomes greater than the amount of gripping force from the tires that are trying to keep the rotors spinning. Lets say you dissipate X joules of energy/sec in the form of heat, of course.
You want to push the brake as hard as possible WITHOUT the tires locking, like you said, so you push the brake in 89%.

Now, lets do the same thing with a larger rotor and caliper. Now, when you push the brake in 80%, the tires lock, instead of the 90% you had to push before. So here, you would push the brake pedal in 79% of the way, so the amount of gripping force trying to stop the rotors doesn't exceed the amount of gripping force from your tires making them keep spinning, just like the previous example.

Now, I hope you agree that these two examples are pretty much what a good driver (or a car's ABS system) attempt to do. If you look though, since the amount of force between the tires and the pavement has not changed between these two examples, then the amount of joules/sec of energy that the brakes can remove from the car without locking the tires has also not changed. Adding larger rotors and calipers did absolutely nothing to improve your 60-0 time.


I might as well make this a full lesson for everyone else reading this:
Now, the reason we would want larger rotors, is because as the calipers clamp down on the rotors, the rotors become extremely hot. Think about it, you're converting all the energy it took to move a 3,000lb object 60 miles per hour directly into heat within just a couple of seconds. As the rotors heat up, the brake pads on the calipers have a harder time gripping the rotor, so while you may only need to push the brake in 80% the first stop, you may need to push it in 82% the second time, then 85%, then 90%, etc., until the stock system is no longer able to create enough friction between the calipers and the rotors to lock the tires. This number will go up exponentially, not linearly btw.

A larger rotor would dissipate that heat, leaving you the ability to continue braking to your tires limits for long periods of time.

The reason you would have a larger caliper, however, is this:
If you use a larger caliper on the same car, you would agree that you would not need to push the brake pedal as hard to get the same force exerted by the caliper onto the rotor, correct? So, if you start the above scenario, but you now use 60% maximum braking effort as your starting point, instead of 80% as before, then you will have more room to work with.

The reason why I am saying a larger rotor is more important than a larger caliper is because like i said, this brake fading is an exponential figure, so using a caliper that's 2x the size of a stock caliper will NOT yield 2x as many stops before heat soaking, whereas if your rotor is 2x bigger than stock, it is not only harder to heat up because there is more material to have to heat, but there is more surface area as well, so the rate of cooling will increase also. With a larger rotor, it is possible to avoid brake fading all together, since the rate of cooling might match the rate of heating/braking in a larger than stock rotor, whereas a larger caliper will never prevent heat soak, it will merely band aid the problem by allowing a couple additional stops before brake fade occurs.

I hope this helped explain, because it sure as hell took me a while to type...lol

BTW, i dont autoX, just FYI

surface area. nice

like i said....if you autox then this is an upgrade for you...constant braking. i would rather put in brake ducts but thats just me. anyone else would probably prefer brembos etc.

like i said....if you autox then this is an upgrade for you...constant braking. i would rather put in brake ducts but thats just me. anyone else would probably prefer brembos etc.

tell me you read the first half...
I kind of explained why larger calipers/rotors wont change your 60-0 in that half. Tis is an upgrade against brake fading, which is what ALL brake upgrades are. I will bet you one MILLION dollars that a car with a big brake kit will not stop any faster than a car with drums all around.

seriously bro? the ONLY purpose? your right it has nothing to do with surface area to grip and actually stop the car....riggghhhhttt.



i have a feeling they actually upgraded the calipers.

wrong. I did not. and BTW the leverage changes. just another detail. read the posts. Used since 2004 in development and racing...quality rotors made in the USA. Floating rotors. comon.... and yes tires are the limiting factor in stopping once fade, balance etc is figured out. The OTTP pricing will be reasonable I am sure, hasnt Josh proven that?

Price is going to be the biggest thing for this. As much as a nice upgrade this will be... If it cost the same as a competing "Big Brake" upgrade, then you would be stupid to choose this over the ladder.

The Time Attack Cobalt is definitely nice, but it isn't the be all and end all of Cobalts.

Not hatin', just sayin'.

Coming soon to a driveway near you....the Hardcore Big Brake upgrade.

311mm dimpled, directional, curved vane 2 piece floating rotor, caliper relocation bracket, and required hardware are included. This kit is exactly as used on the Time Attack and Koni Challenge racecars.

This is a direct bolt on to SS/SC, SS/2.4, and IRLs, you continue to use your stock calipers, hoses and pads of your choosing. No brake bleeding is required to install. 5 lug LTs will need to upgrade to the SS caliper. No 4 lug option is available(....yet.....)

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/eco_maven/utf-8BSU1HMDAxNjAtMjAwOTA0MDgtMTE1N.jpg

The rotor shown by Maven has done 1500 race track miles and 6000 street miles....

how much

how much

the pricing will be a few days away but something to consider. The cost of the brackets and hats for the conversion are a one time cost. After that, the rotor is a bolt on replacement the hats and brackets remain. I would expect 2 to 3 years on a set of rotors, on the street, considering the ones maven has are a year old and pretty much perfect imho

how much

the pricing will be a few days away but something to consider. The cost of the brackets and hats for the conversion are a one time cost. After that, the rotor is a bolt on replacement the hats and brackets remain. I would expect 2 to 3 years on a set of rotors, assuming reasonable use and no rust from lack of same, and considering the ones maven has are a year old and pretty much perfect imho

The time attack cobalt didn't need to come to a complete stop instantly plus runs are done solo.

time attack made 400 on nitrous. 350-360 on stock cams with a high helix m62. and the time attack cars doesnt need to brake hard with cars in front of them? :facepalm:

Time attack cobalt

Random Link http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z10374/Chevrolet-Cobalt-SS-Time-Attack-Unlimited.aspx

how streetable will these be maven?

These will be as streetable as you choose to make them, with stock or cheapy pads they will make a nice upgrade and give you the same braking power with less effort, and have more in reserve if needed, if you start running serious pads(HP+, Porterfield R4i, Carbotech 1106/1108, etc) these will offer absolutely exceptional stopping with no compromises.

yeah that's the solution. throw a bigger rotor on (most likely weighing more) without having a bigger caliper or dual piston plus caliper. your using the same surface area pads etc. This is a big was of time and money. The only thing it's going to do is possibly increase heat dissapation but that's all if anything. Don't waste your time guys.
Yes of course a bigger rotor weighs more, thats kind of the point. BUT this rotor will weigh less than a comparably sized single piece rotor, due to its aluminum hat) So you get the benefit of the increased swept area, and increased mass, but without as much excess weight.

A "bigger" caliper(larger piston area) is going to seriously affect pedal travel(make it longer) brake bias(way too much front brake) and modulation(harder to control) a "bigger" caliper isnt what you want. A multi piston caliper does have its advantages, but on the street, which is where we and you in particular are talking about, there is nothing that can beat the strength and longevity of the factory caliper.

Surface area? sure youre right, large pad surface area is a good thing....the stock LSJ spec pad has a very reasonably sized area, several common multipiston calipers actually have LESS pad area. Its odd that you touched on pad area but completely ignored the other key ingredient in braking surface area, the rotor, the rotor has just as much if not more to do with swept(actually braking area) area than the pads. Simply making the rotor larger in diameter increases swept area, or gives you more braking surface. and it also gives you more leverage. As pointed out before XXX clamping force at XXX friction level, on an 11.65" rotor wont stop you as fast as the same clamping force and friction level applied to a 12.24" rotor. Again, this is the basic physics you talk about.

Even IF the only thing it did was increase heat dissipation(which I am pretty sure is the very definition of a brake system ;) ) it would still offer safer driving on the street because it would allow you more reliable complete stops.

If your into AutoX I'd say go for it, but when it comes down to raw stopping power for the guys putting down big power, you need a big brake kit(2 or 4 piston).

I agree that big power require big brakes, but here is a question for you. How many guys with the 400hp that you talk about are running around stopping from 140mph on a regular basis???? All of them you say right? Yeah I know there are blasts down the LIE and other long straight roads, and i am sure these guys have hit 160mph, and obviously they need good brakes.....but slowing down from 160 maybe 2 or 3 times a night isnt by any means a regualr basis.......I would say heavy braking would be considered slowing down from 140mph once every 2 minutes constantly for 2.5hrs, any of you big power guys do that????? Didnt think so. The "low power" 235hp Koni Challenge cars do....and this is enough brake for them(actually if you ask the people they beat its too much brake :lol:)

Price is going to be the biggest thing for this. As much as a nice upgrade this will be... If it cost the same as a competing "Big Brake" upgrade, then you would be stupid to choose this over the ladder.

The Time Attack Cobalt is definitely nice, but it isn't the be all and end all of Cobalts.

Not hatin', just sayin'.

I agree price will be key, and this will be priced very closely to similarly sized kits, and many hundreds of dollars cheaper than any kit with same sized floating rotors. ;)

And you are correct the Time Attack car isnt the end and be all, I just reference it because these were used on it, they are also used on the Koni cars, which are imo the Balts with the highest braking demands out there......I'd love to see anyone argue otherwise.

The time attack cobalt didn't need to come to a complete stop instantly

How often do you do instant complete stops? Could you explain how the need to come to a complete stop somehow affects the design or function of a brake system? IE is it harder to stop from 80-0 or from 130-50 with the same level of deceleration?

will this fit a hhr ls 06 5bolt?

will this fit a hhr ls 06 5bolt?

Yes, it will fit for any vehicle with 5x110 lug pattern and 296mm rotors, so thats SS/2.4, SS/SC, IRL, HHR w/o Brembos, 04-newer Malibu, Aura, and G6s with 296 rotors, Solstice and Sky(wheel clearance not verified on Sky/Solstice, will not clear most 16s on any of the vehicles)

I've seen the mention of increased leverage on the rotor and therefore more braking torque. How does this affect the brake bias?

Allot of you guys can sit here and argue all day long about these not making a difference but what you should be asking yourself is how they can.

Bigger rotor stock caliper: same brake pad surface to get hot right? Yes, but at the same time you have more rotor to get warm witch intern in the grand scheme of things will keep the same old stock brake pad cooler longer. I may or may not have had a little bit to drink at this time but the easiest way I can tell you to put this theory to work is to take you finger and rub it as fast as you can on a flat smooth surface in a .5" circle for as long as you can and see how much heat you build up. Then take the same finger(granted you didn't rub your skin off and create a blister:lol:) and rub it on the same surface in a 6" circle for as long as you can. Witch one do you think you can do for longer?

So the bigger rotor(over stock) in theory will keep the same stock pad cooler longer due to the fact that it has more surface area to go over, and that bigger surface area will have more time to cool before it comes in contact with the pad again. I agree with the whole tire thing and am not even going to get into that due to the fact that 3rd graders understand that. This set up WILL work, its common since. The big picture is: How much is this going to cost and how much will it benefit me for my driving style. I am sorry for the ramble I just hope that even I can descifrar threw my belligerent haze and find some truth in the matter that I type.

Will these fit the TC? Don't the TC's have a 312 mm disc in front? Can't imagine 1mm would be a horrible difference.

Might have my numbers off though... its late and I'm tired.

The time attack cobalt didn't need to come to a complete stop instantly plus runs are done solo.



Time attack cobalt

Random Link http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z10374/Chevrolet-Cobalt-SS-Time-Attack-Unlimited.aspx

too bad you haven't spoken with the guy that actually built the car to really know what it put down

How often do you do instant complete stops? Could you explain how the need to come to a complete stop somehow affects the design or function of a brake system? IE is it harder to stop from 80-0 or from 130-50 with the same level of deceleration?

to add emphasis to this last point, 130-50 would be significantly harder on your braking system than 80-0, since kinetic energy is exponentially derived from velocity. If i remember correctly, its Energy=(Mass) x (Velocity)², or E=MV²

oo shit this thread is just full of wonderfulness...

there is more to big rotors than everyone thinks.

if you cant get a bolt off what do you do? you get a longer leverage arm

were gonna assume 1000LBs of Force


Stock T=148*1000 T=148000ft/lbs

OTTP T=155.5*1000 T=155500ft/lbs

Thasts a 5% increase in braking force alone...

then the fact that there is a larger surface area of pad to rotor.

I've seen the mention of increased leverage on the rotor and therefore more braking torque. How does this affect the brake bias?

It will like virtually any big brake upgrade increase the front bias of the system. Going from stock 11.65" to these 12.24" rotors with the same pads and same pedal pressure will increases front bias by just shy of 6%. Well within what is normally considered safe amount of bias to add to a street car, even without ABS, with the ABS these cars have it is a non issue.

Will these fit the TC? Don't the TC's have a 312 mm disc in front? Can't imagine 1mm would be a horrible difference.

Might have my numbers off though... its late and I'm tired.

TCs have 315.5mm rotors, these wont fit. If enough people want floating rotor upgrade for the TC they will probably come out.

to add emphasis to this last point, 130-50 would be significantly harder on your braking system than 80-0, since kinetic energy is exponentially derived from velocity. If i remember correctly, its Energy=(Mass) x (Velocity)², or E=MV²

Yup.




Lets play with some more numbers since you guys like to throw physics and stuff out there, we'll keep it simple but very relevant.

All numbers are purposefully random, but are constants. IE: Same pad coeffiecient of friction, same line pressure, and appropriate effective radii are used as required.

SO.

Stock LSJ brakes with XXX pads, and XXX line pressure, our base line, creates: 375ftlbs axle torque.

Hardcore rotors with same exact pads and same exac line pressure as stock creates: 398ftlbs axle torque. a 5.7% increase with merely a rotor change.

Most common Wilwood(and similar)type brake kit with 4piston caliper and 12.19" rotor, same pad friction as above, same line pressure as above: 380ftlbs axle torque. A mere 1.3% increase in torque, but with a thinner rotor than stock arguably a downgrade.

Wilwood DP6 and similar brake kits with 13" rotor, same line pressure, same pad friction: 419ftlbs torque. an increase of 5.1% over the Hardcore setup. This increase comes at a cost of many hundreds of dollars, possible wheel clearance issues, and reduced ease of serviceability, not to mention the without the benefits of the true floating rotor setup. If you needed that extra 5.1% the 6pots provide but couldnt or wouldnt use/afford them or the wheels they may need, a simple pad swap would gain that for you(as little as .025 higher cF on the pad in the Harcore kit would have it creating more torque than the 13" 6pot with our baseline pads.

(yes i know you could use that same logic and go in circles forever putting better pads on each system, put the point is pads are cheaper than calipers, and not everyone wants the look of the big calipers)

yea...i figured up the % difference but my numbers are way bigger to show the change more easily

subd

It will like virtually any big brake upgrade increase the front bias of the system. Going from stock 11.65" to these 12.24" rotors with the same pads and same pedal pressure will increases front bias by just shy of 6%. Well within what is normally considered safe amount of bias to add to a street car, even without ABS, with the ABS these cars have it is a non issue.


Thanks. Placing these on my list.

im so in on this!!!!

Alot of interesting info to read and consider here

Thanks. Placing these on my list.


Sergio if you want you can (when the kit is ready) buy it up here in Canada, and thats okay with Josh....save a ton of aggro with the border and exchange etc...Josh can give you my email....

John, having all of these goodies for our cars is going to kill me. I want to finish one car and then I see all of these things for the other one.
Arrrgggghhhhhh, my head is going to explode :eek:

:#one:John, having all of these goodies for our cars is going to kill me. I want to finish one car and then I see all of these things for the other one.
Arrrgggghhhhhh, my head is going to explode :eek:
:#one:
its okay...all will work out...:)

i would love these for my TC....... I keep petitioning DBA, Brembo and others for something for the SS/tc's. sigh......

i would love these for my TC....... I keep petitioning DBA, Brembo and others for something for the SS/tc's. sigh......

PM me I have some in the works....floating slotted rotors made in the USA, hats made in North America :lol:

tagged

PM me I have some in the works....floating slotted rotors made in the USA, hats made in North America :lol:

I, too, would be very interested in something like that for the TC. Keep us updated!!!

:guns:

It would be cool to know about ALL the products Powell/OTTP plan on releasing this year. Then I can spend my money better.

Because this is not a vendor thread where I'd not impose, I have some questions.



Lets play with some more numbers since you guys like to throw physics and stuff out there, we'll keep it simple but very relevant.

All numbers are purposefully random, but are constants. IE: Same pad coeffiecient of friction, same line pressure, and appropriate effective radii are used as required.

Numbers cannot be 'random' if they are used to express comparative values. How does that work?

SO.

Stock LSJ brakes with XXX pads, and XXX line pressure, our base line, creates: 375ftlbs axle torque.

Ok, so random value 1 equals 375.


Hardcore rotors with same exact pads and same exac line pressure as stock creates: 398ftlbs axle torque. a 5.7% increase with merely a rotor change.

What's a hardcore rotor?? You can't make a rotor only change and develop more torque unless it's larger. Wider, holes, slots etc...none of that will change the working value of the equation. Unless the oe caliper will accept a larger rotor inside its bridge how does this larger rotor fit?

Most common Wilwood(and similar)type brake kit with 4piston caliper and 12.19" rotor, same pad friction as above, same line pressure as above: 380ftlbs axle torque. A mere 1.3% increase in torque, but with a thinner rotor than stock arguably a downgrade.

Arguably dependent upon piston size of course. And with near equal clamping values the main working change would remain based on rotor size more than piston area or qty. Rotor width is not a downgrade dependent upon the use; certainly a TA car would benefit from a beefier rotor for it's intended use, however the Daily Driver and occasional spirited canyon run, weekend drag car....you'd never build enough heat to worry about it. And from the other side of the coin; 15lb rotors would arguably be a downgrade to handling and acceleration.

Wilwood DP6 and similar brake kits with 13" rotor, same line pressure, same pad friction: 419ftlbs torque. an increase of 5.1% over the Hardcore setup. This increase comes at a cost of many hundreds of dollars, possible wheel clearance issues, and reduced ease of serviceability, not to mention the without the benefits of the true floating rotor setup. If you needed that extra 5.1% the 6pots provide but couldnt or wouldnt use/afford them or the wheels they may need, a simple pad swap would gain that for you(as little as .025 higher cF on the pad in the Harcore kit would have it creating more torque than the 13" 6pot with our baseline pads.


Agreed that the 5% value (still unclear how it was calculated) is minimal. But with a larger swept area, greater Er, medium rotor weight it's equally suited to the demands of the average user. Cost being relative any true BBK is going to run upwards of $1200. Wheel clearance would seldom be an issue as in the case of the DP6 it offers a very low profile for fitment. So far I've not come into any 17" wheel they have not fit. Having installed this same package on a MINI with BBS's last Saturday they both look and perform flawlessly. I fail to see the service issues given the reasonable pad costs, lower replacement rotor costs and ease of pad change and lack of noisy rotors for street use.



What's often incorrect about some of these types of discussions is the notion that somehow fitting any of these parts to your ride will afford you a 5.1% increase (whatever number) in stopping power. Doesn't work that way. What changes are rotor tq relative to tire torque values. You've all read "tires stop your car, not brakes" and while that's a bit of an oversimplification there's truth to it.

To properly to comparative data you'd need to establish a threshold of rotor tq equal to maximum tire adhesion. With that number established only then can you determine what brake system changes are used to achieve that same value and how they are done.

Let's assume that a tire skids at a value of 10,000 with a stock brake set up. Guess what; with 14" rotors and 4 pot race calipers and pads....it still skids at 10,000. What's changed is only the mathematics of how we reached the 10k value. This is only done through a four main methods: rotor diameter, clamping force, pad Cf, and input pressure. Nothing more. The most common and effective means (beyond the first attempt at better pads which we all know only goes to short term gains) is a larger diameter rotor. The rotor dia change benefits in more ways than any other; increasing Er and total mass or overall efficiency where as pad changes and piston area changes can have negative side effects as we've discussed.

In all it looks like a fine package of replacement rotors for sure, I'm just not following some of the other points.

^^ everything you said is basically what i explained earlier. However, the added stopping power from these brakes becomes a necessity when the heat levels of a rotor/pad become so intense that they would not be able to deliver enough stopping power to reach that 10,000 value you mentioned with a stock setup, but it WILL be able to with the use of a larger caliper, better pad, and larger diameter rotor. In addition, the larger rotor will cause the system to be able to absorb more energy dispersed from braking, preventing (or at least delaying) the onset of this inability to provide the required force, aka brake fading

Im gonna guess you already knew all of that though, and were merely educating the others. Im just saying its already beenmentioned and explained (by me :)) earlier in this thread

he said it more eloquently though.

No I didn't....lol

I was only looking at it from a point by point basis from the post is all. And frankly as it was at least in part targeted at a product I represent I feel it's only in the consumers best interest to be hear all sides of the issues. I confess that I didn't read, only scanned your posts, and saw nothing to take issue with.

Couldn't agree more on the added speed and need for a greater heat sink. To that end the fore mentioned rotors would appear to be very much in line with the needs of the TA application. But let's be honest here: that's the far less than 1%ers out there too. The vast majority of the end users fall far more into the Joe Consumer and Eddie Enthusiast market where the need and trade offs are seldom if every exploited.

I should correct myself on one point: I said that the fit of such kits will not make for "more brake power" before referencing maximum deceleration. What I should have said was that despite making more rotor tq (regardless of how) the maximum tire torque will remain the same and thus you'd only be able to exploit these gains to that level. For guys running Race compound tires on the track- you can see some benefits for sure. Street tires; not so much.

just for emphasis :) this was my earlier post

what you said would prove why you dont want to just lock the tires, and i completely agree, however, clamping force is not an issue though. lets say if you push the brake 90% in with a stock caliper/rotor, then the tires lock. If you push more than that, then the amount of gripping force stopping the rotor becomes greater than the amount of gripping force from the tires that are trying to keep the rotors spinning. Lets say you dissipate X joules of energy/sec in the form of heat, of course.
You want to push the brake as hard as possible WITHOUT the tires locking, like you said, so you push the brake in 89%.

Now, lets do the same thing with a larger rotor and caliper. Now, when you push the brake in 80%, the tires lock, instead of the 90% you had to push before. So here, you would push the brake pedal in 79% of the way, so the amount of gripping force trying to stop the rotors doesn't exceed the amount of gripping force from your tires making them keep spinning, just like the previous example.

Now, I hope you agree that these two examples are pretty much what a good driver (or a car's ABS system) attempt to do. If you look though, since the amount of force between the tires and the pavement has not changed between these two examples, then the amount of joules/sec of energy that the brakes can remove from the car without locking the tires has also not changed. Adding larger rotors and calipers did absolutely nothing to improve your 60-0 time.


I might as well make this a full lesson for everyone else reading this:
Now, the reason we would want larger rotors, is because as the calipers clamp down on the rotors, the rotors become extremely hot. Think about it, you're converting all the energy it took to move a 3,000lb object 60 miles per hour directly into heat within just a couple of seconds. As the rotors heat up, the brake pads on the calipers have a harder time gripping the rotor, so while you may only need to push the brake in 80% the first stop, you may need to push it in 82% the second time, then 85%, then 90%, etc., until the stock system is no longer able to create enough friction between the calipers and the rotors to lock the tires. This number will go up exponentially, not linearly btw.

A larger rotor would dissipate that heat, leaving you the ability to continue braking to your tires limits for long periods of time.

The reason you would have a larger caliper, however, is this:
If you use a larger caliper on the same car, you would agree that you would not need to push the brake pedal as hard to get the same force exerted by the caliper onto the rotor, correct? So, if you start the above scenario, but you now use 60% maximum braking effort as your starting point, instead of 80% as before, then you will have more room to work with.

The reason why I am saying a larger rotor is more important than a larger caliper is because like i said, this brake fading is an exponential figure, so using a caliper that's 2x the size of a stock caliper will NOT yield 2x as many stops before heat soaking, whereas if your rotor is 2x bigger than stock, it is not only harder to heat up because there is more material to have to heat, but there is more surface area as well, so the rate of cooling will increase also. With a larger rotor, it is possible to avoid brake fading all together, since the rate of cooling might match the rate of heating/braking in a larger than stock rotor, whereas a larger caliper will never prevent heat soak, it will merely band aid the problem by allowing a couple additional stops before brake fade occurs.

I hope this helped explain, because it sure as hell took me a while to type...lol

BTW, i dont autoX, just FYI

Numbers cannot be 'random' if they are used to express comparative values. How does that work?
Clearly I mispoke/typed. Random as in I did not use the exact specs from the Cobalt, or any specific pads cF. Not random as in my values were ever changing, as I stated all the values were constant unless otherwise noted. pad cF, line pressure the same among all examples, the appropriate piston areas for the stock LSJ caliper and the comparable 1.38 FBDL and 1.38/1.0/1.0 DP6 were used to keep things relevant to the Cobalt. I believe you know this since you had no problems with my comparisons merely decided to point out "defficiencies" in the verbage of my post as a way to in some way devalue them

What's a hardcore rotor?? You can't make a rotor only change and develop more torque unless it's larger. Wider, holes, slots etc...none of that will change the working value of the equation. Unless the oe caliper will accept a larger rotor inside its bridge how does this larger rotor fit?
The "hardcore rotor upgrade" is what OTTP is calling this kit, had you read the very first post you would know they are larger and include a caliper relocation bracket. Perhaps skimming some posts and trying to show people "all sides" isnt ideal.

Arguably dependent upon piston size of course. And with near equal clamping values the main working change would remain based on rotor size more than piston area or qty. Rotor width is not a downgrade dependent upon the use; certainly a TA car would benefit from a beefier rotor for it's intended use, however the Daily Driver and occasional spirited canyon run, weekend drag car....you'd never build enough heat to worry about it. And from the other side of the coin; 15lb rotors would arguably be a downgrade to handling and acceleration.
As I stated above and I can only guess that you know, I was comparing similary sized calipers, had I been using a Wilwood caliper with significantly larger or smaller than stock piston area there would have bveen a much larger gap between stock and the 4piston setup. Too light a rotor is a worthless upgrade, you know this as well, and based on your continued comments regarding daily driving, I am sure you know that many of the 12.19 x .81 kits are often used merely for show and arent actually an upgrade when the rotor is concerned.

Agreed that the 5% value (still unclear how it was calculated) is minimal. But with a larger swept area, greater Er, medium rotor weight it's equally suited to the demands of the average user. Cost being relative any true BBK is going to run upwards of $1200. Wheel clearance would seldom be an issue as in the case of the DP6 it offers a very low profile for fitment. So far I've not come into any 17" wheel they have not fit. Having installed this same package on a MINI with BBS's last Saturday they both look and perform flawlessly. I fail to see the service issues given the reasonable pad costs, lower replacement rotor costs and ease of pad change and lack of noisy rotors for street use.

I can post the values I used if I must, but clearly you have more of an issue with me not "showing my work" than coming up with the proper answer. Larger swept area, greater Er, rotor mass, and floating construction are all the key points of this upgrade. I like how you feel the need to specify "true" BBK, as if somehow a larger rotor, higher quality rotor in of itself isnt worthy of the BBK moniker. As you mentioned short of increasing caliper clamping force, the rotor is the realistically rthe single most important part of the system, this upgrade takes full advantage of that. Serviceability as in ease of aquiring parts locally, and the ability of finding technicians familiar with the system.

This is only done through a four main methods: rotor diameter, clamping force, pad Cf, and input pressure. Nothing more. The most common and effective means (beyond the first attempt at better pads which we all know only goes to short term gains) is a larger diameter rotor. The rotor dia change benefits in more ways than any other; increasing Er and total mass or overall efficiency where as pad changes and piston area changes can have negative side effects as we've discussed.

Yup, thats why the rotor being offered here is larger than stock.

i guess everyone learns something new every day lol...now i know

i guess everyone learns something new every day lol...now i know

x 2. Add this. With brakes MASS IS EVERYTHING. There. I said it.:bye:

OOPS. I goofed. CARBON ROTORS CHANGE EVERYTHING. There. I said it.:bye: for sure.

Oh ...one more thing: that OTTP Hardcore Time Attack floating rotor BBK kit? They rock, for the least amount of money and the highest "made in the USA" quality of any BBK kit. Life on the rotors? 30k miles and 2 seasons and counting...


Next up? TC OEM Brembos. THey rock too...coming soon? Floating rotors for the TC.

And they said life could not be this good....:lol: Thanks Maven, thanks Josh :twothumbs

John! u gotta make something for us 4 luggers!

JOHN... upgraded LNF rotors PLEASE :D..... NOW

We're on more of the same page Maven than you may think. In a pm I also fully endorsed your proposal of the above rotors for the use you have selected.

I noted the rotor in the post, but without mention of a relocation bracket in the longer one I took it to be that there was a proposal to use larger 0E part with ease and failed to make the connection between "hard core rotors" being the tag for the complete package.

I'll remain leery of applying the name BBK in the truest sense to such kits only for the reason that they don't often include calipers (the customer scours the junkard at times) nor are they calipers of the conventional BBK design- multi piston, fixed mount etc. This design is nothing new, Powerslot offered them some years ago and I have supplied replacement rings for some.

Semantics perhaps but the two largest issues for me to over come would be the down side of a single piston caliper still and the sizing of that piston. **Proven effective I'm sure I am only explaining my resistance to calling it a BBK. The single pot caliper will continue to exhibit uneven pressure points on the pad and not be as efficient in clamp and release as the other. The second bing piston sizing, touched on by both you and the hunter is that such a change in rotor size without a reduction in piston area will/may over bias the front end- especially with proper race pads. True this remains a fundamental problem with all FWD cars but the huge gains in effectiveness by way of dia, grippier pads, and a need for lower pressure from the large caliper will also mean that the rears will receive far less pressure than normal. That can translate into an even greater demand on the front than what the intent of the heat sink had been asked for.

My only thoughts for using such a beast of a rotor would be to source a caliper for it with a 10-15% reduction in area. Now if you have done so; hats off for it. Much for that reason I certainly don't expect you to "show me the numbers" but on the other hand data seldom lies. You are free to spend time on the bias calc and see what happens- establish a 'skid' value and then watch the rear line pressure when you achieve the skid with large increases in pad and rotor. Not trying to be an ass (although not new) if I didn't enjoy the discussions I'd not bother extending you a helping hand.



Truth be told the primary reason for scanning some of this and rebutting it was that it takes shots at my TCE/Wilwood product in unexplained ways that are not always clear to the average consumer. Actually I'm flattered to be the bench mark to compare too! And I pay to advertise and promote these products- the good and bad. For that reason alone if it's being dumped on I'd at least want a clear understanding of why and be obliged to request more details. I have no issue with your design only ask that if we're going to have a comparative discussion that we both bring all the info and allow the consumer to weigh the pros and cons of both.

fair post.

JOHN... upgraded LNF rotors PLEASE :D..... NOW

tell you what. I have to go to the us to pick up parts (unexpected, pita)tomorrow. You take a rotor and give me all the dimensions, and send it to me. That will speed up the process. Tomorrow on the way to NY I will stop and get the alloy for the hats...

fair post.



tell you what. I have to go to the us to pick up parts (unexpected, pita)tomorrow. You take a rotor and give me all the dimensions, and send it to me. That will speed up the process. Tomorrow on the way to NY I will stop and get the alloy for the hats...

Want me to send you the measurements Qwik? When do you need it by? Id have to do it at lunch time. Ive got rotors in the trunk.

Subscribed for future reference.

Want me to send you the measurements Qwik? When do you need it by? Id have to do it at lunch time. Ive got rotors in the trunk.

damnyou are good i will send you the sheet....

I can measure tomorrow.... I am at work... Maven luv you! (no homo :))

Want me to send you the measurements Qwik? When do you need it by? Id have to do it at lunch time. Ive got rotors in the trunk.

Thank you thank you spec sheet emailed THursday will do i wish i had more rear bars ready i am going to niagara falls ny tomorrow last minute pickup of ARE dry sump and brembo parts; next week may go for tires....so race truck for your next shipment i think....we are sooooo busy and i am not complaining

I wanna go fast before I wanna stop :)

I will be keeping an eye on these though

shouldnt that be the other way around??

shouldnt that be the other way around??

You new here? To cars in general?

People have been doing things backwards since the down of the IC engine.

I still can't get my drag-racing uncle to worry about turning or stopping.

You new here? To cars in general?

People have been doing things backwards since the down of the IC engine.

I still can't get my drag-racing uncle to worry about turning or stopping.

Be gentle he drives a 68 Nova ; car like that taught you a real appreciation of needing to stop:lol:

We're on more of the same page Maven than you may think. In a pm I also fully endorsed your proposal of the above rotors for the use you have selected.

I noted the rotor in the post, but without mention of a relocation bracket in the longer one I took it to be that there was a proposal to use larger 0E part with ease and failed to make the connection between "hard core rotors" being the tag for the complete package.

I'll remain leery of applying the name BBK in the truest sense to such kits only for the reason that they don't often include calipers (the customer scours the junkard at times) nor are they calipers of the conventional BBK design- multi piston, fixed mount etc. This design is nothing new, Powerslot offered them some years ago and I have supplied replacement rings for some.

Semantics perhaps but the two largest issues for me to over come would be the down side of a single piston caliper still and the sizing of that piston. **Proven effective I'm sure I am only explaining my resistance to calling it a BBK. The single pot caliper will continue to exhibit uneven pressure points on the pad and not be as efficient in clamp and release as the other. The second bing piston sizing, touched on by both you and the hunter is that such a change in rotor size without a reduction in piston area will/may over bias the front end- especially with proper race pads. True this remains a fundamental problem with all FWD cars but the huge gains in effectiveness by way of dia, grippier pads, and a need for lower pressure from the large caliper will also mean that the rears will receive far less pressure than normal. That can translate into an even greater demand on the front than what the intent of the heat sink had been asked for.

My only thoughts for using such a beast of a rotor would be to source a caliper for it with a 10-15% reduction in area. Now if you have done so; hats off for it. Much for that reason I certainly don't expect you to "show me the numbers" but on the other hand data seldom lies. You are free to spend time on the bias calc and see what happens- establish a 'skid' value and then watch the rear line pressure when you achieve the skid with large increases in pad and rotor. Not trying to be an ass (although not new) if I didn't enjoy the discussions I'd not bother extending you a helping hand.



Truth be told the primary reason for scanning some of this and rebutting it was that it takes shots at my TCE/Wilwood product in unexplained ways that are not always clear to the average consumer. Actually I'm flattered to be the bench mark to compare too! And I pay to advertise and promote these products- the good and bad. For that reason alone if it's being dumped on I'd at least want a clear understanding of why and be obliged to request more details. I have no issue with your design only ask that if we're going to have a comparative discussion that we both bring all the info and allow the consumer to weigh the pros and cons of both.

i truthfully dont think that he is trying to slam on your company...he is not saying that your is not good, he is just saying that there are 2 choices...and apparently he likes this one...

i also want to say that he figured the proportioning problems out...