I'm just curious about the GM Stage 1 kit as to whether it's the PARTS that make the majority of the power, or the TUNE itself.
I'm wanting to keep the warranty on my car but I'm not sure the GM Stage 1 kit will satisfy my needs...I want to be able to run high 12's.
If it's the PARTS that make the power in the kit, then I'll get it.
But if it's just the tune, wouldn't I be better off getting a Hahn CatCon downpipe and a tune from Trifecta?
I'd also modify my airbox...
Anyways..parts or the tune that makes the Stg1 it's power?
Thanks guys,

 

The tune is what makes all the power. The parts are just the sensors that switch from the factory 2 bar setup to a 3 bar setup.

 

And the advantage to having a 3 bar over a 2 bar? I don't even know what a bar is

 

Bars are a unit of measuring pressure. 1 bar = 14.5psi
The sensors are MAP sensors that allow the computer to read up to 3bar instead of the stock 2bar.

Having these higher pressure sensors allow the computer to control higher boost pressure. With the stock sensor, if you tried to push 2.1bar of pressure the computer would read that the sensor was maxed out since it can only read up to 2bar and would assume that it was infinitely high as a safety feature.

 

You would be able to read higher boost pressure.

1 BAR = 100kPa = 14.5038 PSI

 

So, 1 bar = 14.5.
2 bars = 29psi.
Why would we want to upgrade to 3 sensors? I wouldn't go past 23-24 PSI on the stock Turbo..
The more I look into the GM Stage 1 the more I dislike it...

 

As stated above, the tune is where the power comes from. The stock sensors are rated to 28 PSI. We suspect GM requires the sensor sawp to protect their marketing. Basically require the sensors be swapped so they bring in more guaranteed business to the dealerships as well as sell a few parts.

I'd love to work out a TriFetca tune and our down-pipe package for you.
Let me know if you are interested.

 

The sensors are required because of the higher boost of the tune. I am sure it has been stated elswhere but I will re-state it here. The top say 10% of a sensor range is reserved fro diagonistics to be able to tell if the sensor has a certain type of failure. If the tune were to be allowed to go into this reserved area then the diagonistic would not work. The sensors in the kit are required because the new stage 1 tune would intrude on the production 2.7 bar sensor's top 10% diagonistic reserved area. Therefore, new sensors were required. The 3.0 bar sensors.

Also to correct some infor above the sensors are Absolute pressure sensors so 0 pressure is a vaccum - no pressure- 14.5 psi or 100 kpa would be "normal" sea level pressure.

 

I'm a Computer Specialist so to make sense of your post
10% of sensor = Reserved for Diagnostics.
That makes perfect sense.
What doesn't make sense...
10% of 29PSI is 2.9 PSI.
29-2.9 PSI = 26.1.

What PSI is the GM Stage 1 Kit making? Because if it's over 26 I don't want it..Thanks for the help MHPMTQ!
And Dan, I'll be messaging you. I'm looking at the Hahn CatCon Downpipe and a tune from you guys..would like all the details.

 

Stage Kits don't control to a boost level. In Michigan on an 80 degree day they have been peaking to 23 holding 21.5 to 22 psi. The diagnostic has to be able to comprehend all operating altitudes and temperatures to be able to make the required power. So in Denver on a 100 degree day you will see drastically different boost pressures than in New York.

The stock sensors are 2.7 bar sensors, They are capable of approximately 39 psi absolute range, with a 10% diagnostic band of 3.9psi or 35.1 usable range. Since the first 14.5 taken up to get to PSIG, that leaves a maximum usable boost level of 20.6 psig. The new sensors are 3.0 bar sesnors which equate to a 43.5 PSI absolute range. With the 10% diagnostic band of 4.35 psi. That leaves 39.15 PSI Absolute. So to convert to psig (gage) subtract 14.5 and you get a maximum usable boost level of 24.65 psig. So you can see why we needed new sensors for the stage kit.

I hope that explains it. If not ask away and I will try to explain further.

 

So, in other words, the boost of GMSTG1 is dynamic according to temperature and altitude?

 

Thanks for spreading misinformation for your own personal gain. Please educate yourself before you speak next time.

 

Elaborate? Aside from MHPMTQ's information.

And also, if it's the "parts" of the GMSTG1 that are necessary, can I not just buy the upgraded Map sensor(that is what it is, right?) a 3.0 bar Map sensor, and then get a trifecta tune on top of the upgraded Map sensor?

http://www.gmpartshouse.com/products...structions.pdf

interesting link^

After doing some learning on various sites and talking to my Master Tech brother he suggested that since it's a two bar MAP sensor set up, one MAP and one TMAP, one is probably for when it's naturally aspirated(not in boost) and one is for when it's in boost?
This is his guess and my guess put together...
One of the stock MAP sensors is changed from a 3-pin configuration to a 4-pin configuration which is I guess where you're getting the extra .3 bar?

 

I was under the impression that one of the main 'good' things about the kit is that the 'learn-down' has been removed....

 

Yes Absolutely correct!


The production sensors are a MAP 2.7 bar 3 pin sensor that reads pressure after the throttle and a TMAP 2.7 bar, 4 pin connector, sensor reading the pressure and temperature of the incoming charge air just before the throttle. Both are required. For reacting to a throttle transition open or closed and part throttle conditions, MAP, and for telling the ECM how much boost and what temperature the incoming charge is the TMAP. The kit uses 2 - TMAP, 3.0 bar sensors. The one that replaces the MAP sensor doesn't need the temperature portion of the sensor so actually only 3 of the 4 wires are used in that location.

The sensors pressure curves need to match or the ECM sets a code and you loose boost.

 

Thanks for your input and opinion on the GM sensors and GM tune.

Maybe I should have rephrased my initial post:
"In our experience working with TriFecta Performance, the new GM sensors have been found to NOT be neccessary with the TriFecta tune. In evaluating the GM tune, our opinion is the sensors are a means for GM to protect their interest and insure customers come to them for parts install while getting their tune.".

As stated, this is our opinion.

Of course I have personal gain to consider, I am a supporting vendor and do market the TriFecta tune. That being said, I would love to start selling the new GM sensors to my tuning customers for additional profit. This would also be a personal gain. But, I would be taking advantage of the customers by selling them parts not required or needed. UNLESS, the customer has future plans of making aditional modifications; bigger turbo, etc. We have considered offering the new GM sensors as an option, but it would not be an up-grade, because they are not required.

As for speaking before I am educated:

if the new sensors are required in order to insure diagnostics work properly, then every tuner, TriFecta Performance, HP Tuners Software users, etc should have problems with their tunes while using the stock sensors. With higher boost they are all running fine without trouble codes, cels, engine lights. If diagnostics were not functioning correctly, there would be a "diagnostic failure" code set. I know TriFecta Performance has never experienced this with their tunes and I do not recall any HP Tuners guys reporting any diagnostic issue. This being the case, why would GM's tune cause diagnostic failures with their stock sensors?

The stock GM sensors are just fine. However, GM's tune has the values rescaled to work with the new sensors thus requiring the use of the new sensors. In a nutshell, the tune is where the power increase comes from. That was the specific question asked by the member who started the thread. As for weather or not the new GM sensors are required for the GM tune, the answer is Yes.

 

Dan,

Remember that the end goals of a performance upgrade differ from the company who produced the car to someone like TriFecta/HPTuners and the like GM is trying to preserve an ability of the car to self diagnose itself for a sensor failure/abnormality and avoid any unnecessary MIL's. Whether this functionality is truly of any importance to those of us modifying the car is beside the point.

I'd actually like to know what MIL code would pop on a failed diagnostic Bill is reffering to. Bill, would you be kind enough to share what code(s) are covered by this diagnostic band in the sensors?

Long / short: I agree with you, but also understand why the OEM would want to keep all functionality. FWIW Chrysler was swapping MAP's on the SRT4's when they had some headroom too.

I’m actually pretty exited there is a 3 bar TMAP available for the LNF’s as a whole, opens a lot of doors for us that we might’ve otherwise had to engineer around.

 

The new sensor are required because if we did not change the sensors we would not be able to diagnose them for failure and if a component can not be diagnosed, then we would not pass any emission certification (emissoin certification includes all diagnostics) and if we could not pass emissions we would not offer the kit for sale. So.... we changed the sensors, can diagnose them, and have applied for and will receive 50 state emission certification.


The codes involved are: P0106, P0108, P0113, P0114, P2199. All have to do with MAP or TMAP pressure reading performance, reading too high or correlation with the other sensor.

There are ways to do a calibration without the diagnostic but you can't emission certify. For example the GM race calibration for the T2 racers that we made available to SCCA race businesses used the production sensors but gave Stage 1 HP & TQ. The specific diagnostics were turned off for the race calibrations (tunes)

 

All good points and I agree. Just to clarify, none of the diagnostic settings are turned off within the available tunes. Upon initial start-up, diagnostics are performed, as normal, to insure the MAP sensor, boost sensor and barometric pressure sensor are in agreeance with each other. Diagnostics are obviously very important and should not be compromised or turned off by any tuner for street use.

The emissions certification certainly makes sense. The GM tune must obviously be written to offer enough power to attract potential customers but it must also comply with the EPA. Being 50 state emissions compliant is obviously a neccessity to GM, as GM is the manufacturer and falls under much more stringent regulations than the after market.

As for the stock sensors vs the new sensors; as long as the tune is scaled to the sensors being used, diagnostic checks are performed correctly. So, if I understand you correctly, the new sensors are required for diagnostics purposes because the tune has been scaled for those specific sensors. If the tune was scaled for the stock sensors, diagnostics checks would be performed successfully as is the case with every after-market tune currently being successfully used.

So the question is, "Why does GM scale their tune to work with sensors other than stock? This brings me back to my original thoughts of GM looking to sell parts while tuning customers cars. It's actually a very good way to protect themselves from others just copying their tune. If another tuner was to copy the GM tune, and up-load it to a car with stock sensors, it would not function as the diagnostics checks on initial start-up would fail due to incompatible scaling between the stock sensors and the tune.

 

I don't know about him but I FINALLY got it. Thanks. I needed that!:guns :

 

Sorry if I did not make it clear. I will try again. The GMPP tune has boost levels that violate the required diagnostic reserved top end of the production sensor (20.6 psig and higher as stated above). If the calibration operates in this area then it impossible to diagnose certian failures of the sensor, that is why the top approx 10% is reseved for diagonistics only.

The new sensors were sized so that the GMPP tune will not violate the approx. 10% diagnostic only zone (24.65 psig and higher as stated above).

 

Resolution!
So glad I made this thread...
I'm going to get the GMSTG1 when it comes out, then later a Hahn CatCon downpipe.
MHPMTQ-How well will the tune/car act with the GMSTG1 tune and a CatCon downpipe?(High flow cats) (No CEL's) if the learn feature is now on then I'd assume it'd be fine..
Later on I will probably move on to the Trifecta tune, depending on Bill, and Dan's, answers

 

I fully understand what you are saying about the stock sensors requiring 10% reserve for diagnostics. So let me rephrase my question:

if diagnostics can not be properly performed on the stock sensors with higher boost levels , then why are we not seeing any trouble codes with the stock sensors and even higher boost than the GM tune? You mention "certain failures", what failures are you referring to?

Thanks.

 

Bump, Curious to know as well.

 

What boost levels are you seeing Dan?

Sounds like there could be no issue on going higher boost levels on stock sensors, but the diagnostics may not be able to do their work. Failure of the sensors may or may not happen for a while. hence why you may of not seen any issues. you guys mostly tune then shoot it out the door. not testing it for thousands upon thousands. While GM has to have this safe for the life of the car. much longer than a dyno run or a handful of them, even a month.