I found this quote here
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php3?s=a6a29ba7fa2691ead94851c24e5a217a&threadid=37965

Its from a saturn forum. It details why simply doing a pully swap probably won't be an effecient way for tuning the ION Redlines supercharged motor. Keep in mind the Cobalt SS uses the SAME ENGINE. It looks like the cobalt won't be a car that is easily modded. Very disappointing IMO.
The quote below was typed by a person who knows the supercharger game very well:

ION Redline Aftermarket Supercharger Pulley Information
The Saturn Ion RedLine (RL) features the 2.0L Supercharged ECOTEC (LSJ) motor. The supercharger is the latest generation Eaton M62 helical roots style positive displacement supercharger and offers a maximum of 12 psi of manifold pressure for a 40% increase in power. The latest generation offers a more efficient low-end power and improved durability from a more precision made zero-contact assembly. Also the supercharger is configured with an internal bypass valve to lower off power loads resulting in less power used and higher MPG ratings when cruising. The intake manifold that the supercharger is mated to is an all aluminum port matched intake manifold with an internal water-to-air Laminova heat exchanger intercooler. This style of heat exchanger is more efficient than even that of a bar and plate intercooler and offers more compact packaging. When the whole package is configured together and controlled with a high speed PCM it produces 200 HP and 200 lb-ft TQ for a very solid and reliable powertrain package.

As is the case in every consumer’s quest for “more power” the common ideology is that the more air you can stuff in a motor the more power you will get out of it. This is a solid way of thinking as long as it’s adhered to with attention to both the needs of the air (oxygen) and the needs of a combustible (fuel). Other factors contribute to the whole process like spark and it’s timing, but for simplicity sake focus will be directed to just air and fuel (mixture). In the case of the RL the fuel needs are addressed 100% by the PCM and sensor input based on the mass of airflow entering the engine. The M62 supercharger based on the relationship of the engine rpm and rotor speed addresses the air needs of the motor. This leads individuals to assume that by spinning the supercharger faster that it will also increase the air entering the motor and by ideology make more power. This assumption is inaccurate and will only lead to a loss in power, and increase in heat and drastically reduced supercharger and engine life.

To understand why this is the case (as contrary to ideology as it sounds) it’s very important to fully understand how a positive displacement helical roots supercharger works and its respective limits. Positive displacement helical roots superchargers are literally one-way valves that move a fluid from one place to another. The way the valve works is that it is of a specific size and can move a specific volume of fluid through itself by creating a bucket that is first exposed to one side then contained in the assembly and then exposed to the other side through constant rotation. How this is possible is based on the design of the rotors that are counter-rotating and intermeshed. There is no physical contact between either the rotors or housing of the supercharger, but the clearance is so close that at high speeds not even air under pressure can escape. Also the actual profile of the rotors is almost like a 4 leaf clover and is aligned in a way that the ‘lobe’ of one is in the ‘recess’ of the other as they rotate. By moving a larger volume of air into an intake manifold than the motor can consume the supercharger begins to cause backpressure against itself and the intake valves. This backpressure continues to build until it’s many times that of atmospheric and in the case of the RL 12 times so. Thus you have more air entering the motor and it results in more power than it would naturally aspirated.

The pressure in the manifold is in a direct relation to how much volume the supercharger puts in it and how fast. When correctly matched through gearing to engine rpm the supercharger will offer a substantial increase in volume at low engine rpms and as much as two or three times that by redline. The supercharger however can only operate so quickly because of physical size limits and mechanical bearing limits. As the pressure in the manifold increases it generates heat from both compression and action against the rotors and this heat becomes increasingly more of a problem as rotor speeds increase. This is a key factor in why roots superchargers tend to be so inefficient in the range of 60-70% compared to that of a Turbo in the range of 90% efficient. Basically as you increase rotor speed you see diminishing returns to the point that the actual volume of air is lower at higher rotor speeds than it would be at a lower speed.

The M62 supercharger at 12psi by redline in a 2.0L motor is already very close to it’s maximum operating speed needing around 30 HP to operate producing 180degree charge temperatures. Obviously the intercooler addresses the extreme charge temperatures, but increasing the rotor speed much more will only take additional power to do and measurably increase charge temperatures.

Will a smaller diameter pulley make more power? Possibly, but there are other more reliable and safer ways to make equal if not more power than can be made with a smaller pulley. When a pulley does become available it will have to be no more than a few percent difference in size or by redline the heat generated will cause blower failure from heat expansion and contact. In a warm weather environment or abusive driving conditions I would never suggest a smaller pulley because heat build-up will result in even quicker failure.

For now opening up the exhaust track and providing more than atmospheric pressure to the open side of the blower are the only easy ways to gain power. A possible M91 swap would also result in more air volume and at a lower pressure and temperature, but it would take serious work. Finally the other option would be N20, but I can’t stress enough that is MUST be plumbed AFTER the supercharger along with ANY form of fluid other than air or it will delaminate the rotor coating and dramatically reduce power.

I have been tuning M45, M62 and M91 blowers on Hondas for a number of years now here in the humidity-neglect high California desert. I have seen everything happen to them and every attempt to make more power by people and most of the time all that results is an expensive piece of junk that can’t even produce the advertised power because of physical damage from failing to understand how they work.

Also as of my last chat with Hondata no M62 supercharger strapped to any Honda motor has even produced more than 280 HP and that’s with cams, exhaust and hondata PCM so don’t expect anything magical out of a RL because it’s already been tried on a motor that statistically is exactly the same as the LSJ.


...
-Adam Chant
http://www.scdyne.com
"Tune it or lose it!"

damn that sux, i knew turbo is the way to go or atleast a centrifugal supercharger. gm better have some power packages available like mopar does for srt4. but i doubt it.

If Eaton roots blowers don't make more power with a smaller pulley then why does it seem to work so well with the 3800 S/C?

If Eaton roots blowers don't make more power with a smaller pulley then why does it seem to work so well with the 3800 S/C?

Well because apparently the blowers on the Cobalt SS and the ION Redline seem to already be set at max 'effecient' boost. Any extra boost will only turn up the heat and not the power. It is obviously very confusing (apparently it wasn't for GM) that they'd put out a 'tuner' car that is hard to tune? There are adds for redlines in magazines with some dude in a garage with a bunch of tools. He must be trying to build himself a new car.
:roll:

i am getting ready to order me my s/c but this kinda has me flipping coins on my decisions like john kerry. hmm, the 2.4 with a s/c mite be a worthy investment, but is it worth the wait? i want that close ratio 5 spd 2, sigh

By saying, its not easy to modify....

Are you saying that it wont be possible to add many more ponies? 205 is nice, but I was hoping to reach closer to 250 with some aftermarket parts.

I've now read the whole article.... looking at the forums it seems that this guy is a bit sketchy, but his story meshes with what I've read on aftermarket websites. The pulley works well with the 3800 because it's lower engine and S/C rotor speeds allow the boost to be upped without producing too much more heat and without losing much power to inefficiency. Still, the biggest gain is midrange and it falls off at top end due to heat and loss of efficiency at higher speeds. I want top end, so just a pulley swap wont help :P.

Still, a bigger intercooler and hopefully some good aftermarket control modules should be great for big bolt-on power. Of course I guess exhaust, intake and cam work could follow to make some real power.

if i get one, i'm gonna mod the crap outta it

There's always the potential to swap to a turbo setup. As most of us know, Chevy's turboed Boneville racer is making somewhere in the range of 1,000 and 1,100 hp. To say this engine doesn't have potential, is foolish. The setup might be a bit difficult to work with, but the guy in the article was a Honda dude. I'd wait and see a few months after the car is released. If extra hp can be squeezed out, it will be. I'll probably do the generic upgrades, some gauges, some exterior...ride it until the warranty expires, then either move to a turbo setup or a centrifugal supercharger. For a daily driver, it's going to be a beautiful thing. :bow:

why not just go with turbo, on top of the s/c?

It's been done to the 3800 before, and seems to work quite well - the s/c gives a good amount of power at lower rpm's, and a relatively big turbo spools up to give an excellent top end.

I don't have a lot of experience with a twin charger setup. The closest to it I can think of is sequential turbos. I guess if you could fabricate a twin charger setup, it'd be cool. But given the limited space of the engine bay with the m62 draped across the front, I sincerely doubt it.

Also, any good tuner with a Turbo setup will be able to match the appropriate size to meet their functions, making lag almost negligible. It'd seem a much simpler and more direct method to turbo, rather than try and supercharge with a turbo. My opinion, I guess..then again, as I said, I have no experience with twin charging.

quite simple actually; turbo on back of engine, plumbing going around engine on passanger side to front mounted intercooler(air to air, for the turbo only), then from driver side of i/c to the throttle body/intake on the s/c. simple as that. put an intake coming off the turbo to the driver side(stock location, just replace with a cone filter).

the beautiful thing about turbosuper charging is a bigger turbo can be fitted, as the s/c makes up for turbo lag( with a big turbo, the engine is essentially a poorly tuned n/a motor{lower compression, etc} untill the compressor spools up).

not sure how well it would work on the LSJ, but i've seen it on 3800's, and on aircraft.

by the way, sorry if I overly-dumbed it down there; I've spent the last 4 hours trying to rack my mind around a bunch of chemistry formulas.

I appreciate the response. Sounds like a sweet setup..expensive, but sweet. I just don't see the space in the engine bay. If it worked, somehow, there'd be zero clearance for even a pinky. And, you'd probably have to switch to either a centrifugal S/C, or a smaller roots unit like an M45. But, it's worth looking into.

no clearance issues at all really, depending on how much room is under the hood to start....

go on google or JBO and look at some turbo setups on the old 2.3 Quad four, they have the throttle body in the same place as the LSJ, due to a large intake manifold(i'd say just as big or bigger than the M62); lots of people set them up(or a 2.3/2.4hybrid, which uses the quad head and IM) with turbo, it doesn't really take any room at all, just the 3" piping on the passenger side, and from the I/C to the IM.

the best example I xan think of is Crash on JBO, he has a hybrid with turbo.

http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=46&i=56658&t=56409#56658

here are some pics of the manifold on a 2.4, it shows the position of the throttle body pretty good in the second pic.

now just picture a pipe going from where the cold air intake joins the im, foreward to just behind the radiator - empty space right? now take another back from there on the opposite side, or under the first tube, to the turbo, which is tucked away behind the block; then put another from the turbo to where the air filter is in the pics.

Very interesting. It's funny how certain setups are almost standard with one engine, but completely unknown to another. :) Thanks for the information.

Also look at the engine bay pictures for the Cobalt SS speedster thing that set the record on the salt flats (front page story). I dunno how much they changed the engine bay, but the turbo is between the engine and the firewall.

They moved the firewall back on the turbo car :bow:

Ah, I see.

I doubt it was absolutely necessary though; many MANY people have rear mounted turboes on J's, with no clearance issues.

but like I said, the cobalt may have a smaller compartment(seeing how you can fit a 3800 in a j).

You can fit a 3800 in a J but you have to do quite a bit of tubbing... an if you can open up that bay to fit that big of an engine some extra space for a turbo should be no big deal.

yeah that's what I was poking at - the J was designed from the get go for the 60 degree 6's; the cobalts compartment might be smaller.

DOn't worry guys they should have lot more mods on that SS but you just have to wait in about year to make some mods in it so just relax 8)

The blower seems OK I have heard that the intercooler core is a little small. So an improvment there will allow a puley change with good results
Mike

i can't wait to start seein all the modifications that can be done after about a year or so

The blower seems OK I have heard that the intercooler core is a little small. So an improvment there will allow a puley change with good results
Mike

Yeah, since the intercooler is in the intake set-up, I'm hoping the aftermarket will be able to come up with a really good front mount to install for more cooling and more power.

a front mount isn't necessarily needed; it's an air to water intercooler, as opposed to air to air, so just making it bigger would do the trick; worse case the radiator could be made larger.

look at it this way - the evo has an air to water, and keeps it's charge quite cool; they are pushing what, 18psi??

damn i had no clue they were pushing that much.....what is the cobalt again? 8psi

yeah...cobalt is bleeding at 12...evo is 18 and i think the sti is something like 21 or something...

The EVO VIII's are pushing 19psi, from what I understand. As for the STI's..not entirely sure..but I was across from a Suby dealership today and watched a truck unload about 5-8 STI's and around 3-4 WRX's...I couldn't stop staring. :D

remember guys this is supercharger vs turbo we are comparing here, in just about every setup a turbo will make more hp at the same boost.

The 272 and the SS S/C Sedan at SEMA were running 16 PSI, and there weren't any intercooler upgrades mentioned. It seems that the M62 is capable of producing more boost and making more power, contrary to the article posted at the beginning of this thread.

ive always felt that the m62 was more than capable of makeing the power that im looking for at least...all it really needs is a fixin of the computer and colder air...the rest is already taken care of...

yeah...cobalt is bleeding at 12...evo is 18 and i think the sti is something like 21 or something...

If I'm not mistaken, around 14.5 for the north american STI... the eruopean/asian would be higher, to compensate for the smaller displacement(2.0, versus 2.5), but don't quote me on that.

as for the turbo vs. supercharger, you can't compare straight pressure; CFM(volume) has just as big or bigger an effect as PSI.

Yes, a turbo will always make more power than a S/C with the same psi and cfm, it might not make more than one with the same psi but more volume.

yup turbo will make more power because sc draws power from the engine, where as turbo draws its power from unused exhaust pressure. but the plus on the s/c u get the power off the line, no lag and a good amount of power.

yeah alot of people hate on sc setups because of the fact that it borrows from the motors power...these days the acutal draw from the motor is really insignificant...but im game for either...

As for the M62 being non-powerful, i was actually thinking of going to the guys at Procharger because they are local and seeing what they could do. Converting the SS to a centrifugal SC and givin it a badass tune should scare the pants and tires off of some of these little sh*its on the road lol the cobalt SS will reign supreme!! As soon as one aftermarket modification comes out, i'm buyin it hahaha. Man i'm gonna be broke lol.

that article is hog wash LOL I am from the Tiburon comunity, our aftermarket uses the M-62 in a setup very similar to the Cobalt SS... on a M-62 we are up to 340 whp at 15 psi,

now i realise your already at 10 psi, but your on a smaller engine that likely doesn't breath as well as my 2.7 V-6, which means you have a fair amount of headroom left with this supercharger

our guys running 340 whp are likely spinning the supercharger twice as fast as you guys are, if not more..

the reason why your intake charge is heating up is that you likely need to open up your exhaust with bigger diameter piping and headers, the blower is working harder then it needs to

as I say this blower can support the airflow required for 340 whp, i can show you a dozen dynos of over 300 whp using this exact blower

if this blower can acheive 15 psi on a built 2.7 with headers( the 2.7 has awesome head flow) it sure as shit can support 20 psi on a small 2.0 Ecotec.........Your PSI is related to how well your motor breathes, your HP is determined by the RPM of your blower

also In the Tiburon world we use Methnol injection at high boost to keep things safe, the Cobalt could do this as well

also we have upgraded the intercooler element with great success

the Stock Cobalt SS supercharger will be able to make over 300 whp with the right mods, whoever said a pulley wont help is on glue, we have years of M-62 experience to back my point

this is BS the supercharge is rated for 17 or 18 psi and 18000 rpm

I tried reading the post and I got dizzy. Instead of picking up physics books, how about putting the pedal down? .... just a bunch of malarky... :)

I guess true performance from the LSJ will come from those who know, not those who think they know. The article at the start of this story is about 5% truth 95% made up raed it on the internet crap.

The major reasons the LSJ might look terrible to mod is due to lack of parts and R&D. Companies have just started releasing stuff but nothing to really take notice of.

The CAI aren't really major performance parts, especially when they are replacing a part that isn't restrictive. They are released to make money off of us.

And the half ass piggy back computer/pulley are a joke. All they do is feed the PCM bull crap readings to off set for the increased boost. The only true performance gains will come from true tunes.

Until the PCM and be completely tuned for upgrades no one will know what the true potential of the LSJ is.

that article is hog wash LOL I am from the Tiburon comunity, our aftermarket uses the M-62 in a setup very similar to the Cobalt SS... on a M-62 we are up to 340 whp at 15 psi

the Stock Cobalt SS supercharger will be able to make over 300 whp with the right mods, whoever said a pulley wont help is on glue, we have years of M-62 experience to back my point


yep.. the post was made by scdyne over a year ago, he doesn't post that stuff anymore since it's been proven wrong now that there are pullies and mods available.

If this whole article is true, then riddle me this, GM is coming is coming out with stage 1, 2 and 3 upgrade kits. If the car/SC is already at full capabillty, And will give a 20 (1) 40 (2) and rumored 60 hp gain then this whole article can't be full true. :cssNET: :nuts:

Yea i have to agree with fifasf on that. Besides, why would GM make such a nice tuner car and only give it such a limited power range? I think GM is smarter than that, they wanna make the big bucks so they are goin to have thoes stage 1,2 and rumored 3 upgrades.

does anyone think that with the stage upgrades you will get a badge to go on your car? :nuts:

I think that would be pretty cool. I wouldn't mind a stage II badge to go under the SS Supercharged

na no need for a stage 2 badge. i want a sleeper. will to a point. but any way what about maby putting the m90 (not soure if that is the right #) but isant that supercharger larger than ours? and would if fit? just a thought

I dont buy this article for a second, why? because GM is putting at a smaller pulley in thier friggin Staged kit. Why would they do it if it didnt work? C'mon, lets use some simple logic here.

guys look at the post date ... didn't everyone get wind of the stage upgrades just recent last month or so? its an old post lets leave it at the bottom of the trash

Just for fun, I'll be out with a guy this Sat at the strip that has a 3' pulley, if anyone still cares (not that there should be any doubt that this was fallacious info) i'll let you know what the difference is between our two cars. I'm betting it'll be pretty significant though since he beat a Rousch Mustang the other day.

Old news, let the aftermarket catch up. I think he may be thinking towards 300hp off the M62. I doubt that will happen with this s/c?!

I started laughing when I got to this part of the 'article':

"This backpressure continues to build until it’s many times that of atmospheric and in the case of the RL 12 times so. Thus you have more air entering the motor and it results in more power than it would naturally aspirated. "

Gee....many times that of atmospheric. 12 times an atmosphere (14.7psi) is 177 psi, or 162 PSIG. I was unaware that the CSS and R/L blowers cranked up 162lbs of boost, most impressive...

Since this yahoo cannot seem to tell the difference between and atmosphere and a single psi, I find his self-proclaimed expert status to be laughable. As it turns out, I am an engineer and spend most of my time specifying and installing turbo diesal engine generators. Occasionally I deal with supercharged engines and even the more rare twin-charged engine. I am extremely familiar with forced induction design, both in theory and in practical installations. His tirade sometimes comes close to actual real theory, but his examples seem to be without merit. It is apparent that he has read what someone else (who had less than a strong grasp on the subject matter) wrote and regurgitated it back on the forum.

Let this thread die, it provides no useful information and is actually promoting misinformation.

ok i allready found a ssmaller pollie to push about 18 psi and a exhaust intake branks lowering kit i found alot for my 06 SS so i dont no wat hes talken about

DUDE.. this was from 8/05/2004

by now there is much more you can mod

By saying, its not easy to modify....

Are you saying that it wont be possible to add many more ponies? 205 is nice, but I was hoping to reach closer to 250 with some aftermarket parts.


240 is the what the stage II kits are listed at.

I read that post twice and this is what ihave to say about it,

BS!!!!!!!



If we listened to what the alleged experts say, the GTP's would still be running 12 sec 1/4's!:lol:


We have already proved that BS article is wrong with proven dyno results.

Oh well, believe what you want;)

:lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock: :lock:

is it worth getting the cold air intake & a new exhaust to get a few more HP's?

PLEASE close this thread. We all know it is BS.:lock:

is it worth getting the cold air intake & a new exhaust to get a few more HP's?

Im not getting them. Not worth the hassle and possible problems you can get. The SC will pull the air through the stock airbox no problem and our exhaust and cat is already highflow. You might get a bit more hp.. or you might lose some depending on the setup.

if these cars aren't easily tunable then they wouldn't have a build book on how to get your cobalt over 500 HP! That's right...OVER 500HP!!!!! You should read it guys...GM has pdf format of it on their website...but of coarse it is for the 2.2 L and Not for the 2.0 S/C or the 2.4 SS! :(