Ok, as some of you might know, I blew my motor. I took it apart last saturday and found that as usual I blew the ring land on cylinder 4. Anywho, I took my head to work today, and were gonna CC the combustion chambers, surface it, possibly throw it on the flow bench, then do a full radius valve job, and port the hell out of it, then maybe throw it back on the flow bench. With all this crazy head work, I want 8.5:1 pistons to go with it, to make the motor more reliable, because 20 psi with 9.5:1 compression is too much (even though after the head work I'll prolly be at like 16 or 17 psi). Bottom line...
:cussing: I CAN'T FIND ANY 8.5:1 PISTONS!!!!!!!!!! HELP!!!!!

Contact diamond and get a custom set made, or use a lower compression 2.2 piston rod combo.

How much would it cost for a set of custom diamonds?

j body performance has some wiseco pistons that are 8.5:1. i was honestly thinking of getting them myself. they are a little bit expensive, but still sheaper than a new motor.

Screw the Eaton, get a Whipple ;)

Screw the Eaton, get a Whipple ;)

The adaptor plates are almost done, we just need to get them CNC machined ;)

As posted in another thead try calling the fellow who is involved in my pistons.

Adam Silverthorn

Wiseco Piston Canada

Phone: (519)537-6281 Ext. 4103

Fax: (519)537-8508

asilverthorn@wiseco.com

www.wiseco.com

:cussing: I CAN'T FIND ANY 8.5:1 PISTONS!!!!!!!!!! HELP!!!!!

I wouldn't change the Rod length, because if you start going shorter, you will lose some of the torque that our motors are known for. Sure you can possibly gain horsepower, but I wouldn't want to turn into a Honda motor.

Hey witt- The 2.2L rods are only tested "safe" to 250hp, I think Blown4 is gonna be goin higher than that.:twothumbs

Don't forget if you can't get all the way down to a 8.5:1 piston, you can use a 8.75 piston and get a slightly thicker head gasket, that can drop CR alittle bit. Maybe .05-.1CR, but it can help. Just make sure it is a high quality gasket.

You are using ARP head studs now right? Cause our head studs are torque to yield, so they must be replaced after each use.

Thanks a lot man! I will definatly shoot him an email!

As posted in another thead try calling the fellow who is involved in my pistons.

Adam Silverthorn

Wiseco Piston Canada

Phone: (519)537-6281 Ext. 4103

Fax: (519)537-8508

asilverthorn@wiseco.com

www.wiseco.com
Thanks a lot man I will definatly shoot him an email! :cssNET:

I wouldn't change the Rod length, because if you start going shorter, you will lose some of the torque that our motors are known for. Sure you can possibly gain horsepower, but I wouldn't want to turn into a Honda motor.

Hey witt- The 2.2L rods are only tested "safe" to 250hp, I think Blown4 is gonna be goin higher than that.:twothumbs

Don't forget if you can't get all the way down to a 8.5:1 piston, you can use a 8.75 piston and get a slightly thicker head gasket, that can drop CR alittle bit. Maybe .05-.1CR, but it can help. Just make sure it is a high quality gasket.

You are using ARP head studs now right? Cause our head studs are torque to yield, so they must be replaced after each use.

You don't change the stroke to lower compression. You change the dome or dish of the piston, also if you use a head gasket to lower compression, HELLO DETONATION!!!!

Thanks a lot man! I will definatly shoot him an email!


Thanks a lot man I will definatly shoot him an email! :cssNET:



You don't change the stroke to lower compression. You change the dome or dish of the piston, also if you use a head gasket to lower compression, HELLO DETONATION!!!!

How does a different head gasket = detonation. It is a common thing used for the Muscle car guys. Although, I haven't done my research on Supercharged motors yet.

The adaptor plates are almost done, we just need to get them CNC machined ;)

Your car with a ported whipple, make sure you dont send me a sound file, cause i will seriously, no joke, cream my pants.

no he was talking about fabbing the plate not porting the blower.

How does a different head gasket = detonation. It is a common thing used for the Muscle car guys. Although, I haven't done my research on Supercharged motors yet.
No, a new head gasket with same compression is fine, new head gasket with higher compression is fine, but lowering it with a head gasket messes with the quench and allows detonation.
Your car with a ported whipple, make sure you dont send me a sound file, cause i will seriously, no joke, cream my pants.

I'll keep that in mind :lol:

No, a new head gasket with same compression is fine, new head gasket with higher compression is fine, but lowering it with a head gasket messes with the quench and allows detonation.

Hmm, in the 400 I rebuilt for my GTO, I lowered the CR from 10.75 to about 10.1 with piston and a slightly thicker head gasket. I never had any problems with detonation, but it might be different with new motors. Although it was only .01 thicker.

Its different with boosted motors, detonation is a lot more touching when you throw boost into the mix.

Call Diamond you bum! I heard that you can get them done for not much more a regularly stocked piston.

Well Wiesco said a set of 4 8.5:1 forged pistons with rings and pins is $775 Canadian... This would mean a lot more if I knew how much that is in USD :cussing:

$650-675 if my estimation is right

Well Wiesco said a set of 4 8.5:1 forged pistons with rings and pins is $775 Canadian... This would mean a lot more if I knew how much that is in USD :cussing:

Today that would be $669.744.
When you need to know the exchange rate go here http://www.xe.com/ucc/

Hey witt- The 2.2L rods are only tested "safe" to 250hp, I think Blown4 is gonna be goin higher than that.:twothumbs

umm, I'm sure he knows I meant 2.2 forged rods. There are a few more off the shelf piston choices available by ditching the 23mm wrist pin.

No, a new head gasket with same compression is fine, new head gasket with higher compression is fine, but lowering it with a head gasket messes with the quench and allows detonation.


I'll keep that in mind :lol:

The only effective quench are on an ecotec contains too much of a gap to actually be effective. Anything over .045" and quench doesn't happen.

Contact diamond like I told ya to do how many months ago.

Contact diamond like I told ya to do how many months ago.

You ca lead a horse to water but...yada, yada, yada:lol:

LOL! I didn't think diamond was able to make then, considering they only sell pistons with extremly high compression ratios. I didn't think they would know how to make a 8.5:1 piston :lol:

Just cause they don't doesn't mean they can't. All they have to do is shorten the top slightly. Nevermind that concept might be a little too much for a trusted piston company that took the time to be one of the first to make pistons for the LSJ. I mean they can figure out how to make 9.5:1, 10:1 and 10.5:1 but moving the other directions takes an entirely different approach to making pistons.

You should really be looking for rods too. They aren't rated for much more than the pistons.

yeah blown you need pistons and rods

Just cause they don't doesn't mean they can't. All they have to do is shorten the top slightly. Nevermind that concept might be a little too much for a trusted piston company that took the time to be one of the first to make pistons for the LSJ. I mean they can figure out how to make 9.5:1, 10:1 and 10.5:1 but moving the other directions takes an entirely different approach to making pistons.

You should really be looking for rods too. They aren't rated for much more than the pistons.

I was joking George, GEEZ your such a stiff!!! :lol:
As for rods, I'm relying on you to get those dimensions together for the custom CNC titanium rods. I'll pay for them if I have to, no one makes rods for the LSJ, so if I have to get custom ones, why not make them handle 2000 hp :lol:

i cant wait until the day you sell your cobalt

I was joking George, GEEZ your such a stiff!!! :lol:
As for rods, I'm relying on you to get those dimensions together for the custom CNC titanium rods. I'll pay for them if I have to, no one makes rods for the LSJ, so if I have to get custom ones, why not make them handle 2000 hp :lol:

God damn! I never finished my mechanical engineering degree. And I don't know the first thing about designing rods. Adapters, no problem, but high stress engine parts...that's a little out of my league I fear. I guess I could try to duplicate a high performance rod for a 2.2, but modify it to fit the LSJ.

The rods in the LSJ are good to past 500hp so they will work. JBP does make rods for the LSJ (through Pauter) and they are a better design for higher hp output.:)

You might want to look into aftermarket 2.2 piston/rod combo as Al suggested. Could be a lot cheaper and easier. If my motor has to be pulled, thats the route I am going, 2.2 stroker. Forged 2.2 parts are cheaper than the non-existant LSJ aftermarket. Unless you want to pay JBP prices, and god knows how long they will last.

The rods in the LSJ are good to past 500hp so they will work. JBP does make rods for the LSJ (through Pauter) and they are a better design for higher hp output.:)

I think it would be cheaper to pay someone to custom design and make rods, than it to order them from JBP. I mean shit, they charge $350 for a K&N Intake!!! :wtf:

I think it would be cheaper to pay someone to custom design and make rods, than it to order them from JBP. I mean shit, they charge $350 for a K&N Intake!!! :wtf:

When are you Americans going to figure out/accept that JBP is a Canadian company. That means everytime JBP buys parts from an American company, JBP pays duty to get it to Canada. That is also likely one of the reasons why JBP says it will be cheaper to get their parts through one of their dealers. You should think about calling Intense (JBP dealer) and see what kind of price you can get. The phone call is a small price to pay to see if you can get some LSJ aftermarket rods at a better price than something made in the US shipped to Canada and shipped back to the US.;) :)

Did Mahle make a set of 8.5:1 forged pistons for the LSJ?

http://cobaltss.net/forums/showthread.php?t=38824


http://www.importperformanceparts.net/imports/mahlepowpak-ecotec.html

crateenginedepot.com has some stuff,
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/store/Ecotec-High-Performance-Piston-Ring-and-Pin-Set-88958634-P327C131.aspx for piston, ring, pin set yield 9:1 with stock gasket the price is $812, bit higher side.

Did Mahle make a set of 8.5:1 forged pistons for the LSJ?

http://cobaltss.net/forums/showthread.php?t=38824


http://www.importperformanceparts.net/imports/mahlepowpak-ecotec.html

I would order those, but I've heard the wrist pin is the wrong size. I'll do some research and see if the pistons are usable with some machining.... Hell, I work at a machine shop! :cool:

crateenginedepot.com has some stuff,
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/store/Ecotec-High-Performance-Piston-Ring-and-Pin-Set-88958634-P327C131.aspx for piston, ring, pin set yield 9:1 with stock gasket the price is $812, bit higher side.

It doesn't specify the LSJ, which most of the time means they are for the L61. Slightly different bore, rod length, wrist pin dia., and etc.

Lol, good to know

I just got done going through the same thing you're about to go through. Custom rods from most companies will cost over $700 and will take 6-8 weeks make, if you can wait then thats the way to go. After market rods for the 2.2 will work except the big end of the rod if not the same size, so you'll have to get the crank machined to fit the smaller rods. Also buy your rods first then get the custom pistons to fit them, not vise-versa. I took the long stupid way and my car if finnaly close to being back together after four months.
Good luck:cssNET:

What is the problem with the Mahle pistons? I've been trying to find out, but can't find anything.

What is the problem with the Mahle pistons? I've been trying to find out, but can't find anything.

I think they were machined completely wrong like made to large for our bore.

Oh well I can fix that. I'm gonna order the Mahle pistons and just make em work. I'll just machine them until they fit right. Shit you can't beat $403 for a set of 4 forged 8.5:1 pistons with rings and pins... unless those Diamonds you ordered were less...

You will have to re machine the entire side including the grooves. Then bore out the wrist pin. You also have to re machine all the reliefs. They were desinged to be strong the way they are, by tampering with the design they may not be as strong and could fail prematurely. It will also create a lot of heat to machine forged metal which could distort the grain boundaries of the metal causing it to fatigue, once again leading to premature failure.

Did you also know that forged pistons are typically not perfectly round due to increased thermal expansion in certian areas? Just another obstical to over come.

This is a very bad idea and I highly discourage you from doing it.

Even though others have done it with no problems, and my boss said it would be fine... my boss whos been building racing engines for 30 years, and is the crew cheif on a nitro funny car team.

Your money and your car. Do what ever you want. Personally I would rather pay to have them made properly than modify them. Cheaper is not always better.

I just sent an e-mail to Diamond, there, happy?

I just sent an e-mail to Diamond, there, happy?

Yep. I don't see why they couldn't do it. Plus you could get a ceramic and/or moly coating from Diamond.

Diamond makes some quality pistons. They're not cheap but you get what you pay for.

Thats the problem, I don't have any money to spend. Yeah, they make a good product thats expensive, but is it worth it to have my car on jack stands for 2 months while I save up the money? :(

some times more then 2 months...... but in time it will be worth saving the money for the parts you have purchased

Well either way your going to have to get a new set of rods. Just think about the power you'll be making. If you make over 300hp that equates to 600hp in a sb chevy (4cyl X 2), not many stock rods can handle much more power than that. Better safe than sorry.

No, the stock ss s/c rods are rated to like 450-500 hp. There based off the Pink rods for the small block chevy. The stock rods are forged, and people don't give them enough credit, just because they are stock. Think about this, have you EVER heard of stock LSJ rods failing? I sure haven't, many people have had pistons fail, put forged pistons, and never have any more problems. The rods are good, hell Rice eater's crank failed before the rods did!

The build book says not to use them in applications over 300hp. My machine shop said it was not a good idea to use them. I told them that they are similar to sb Chevy pink rods, but they said they would be inadequate. I'm not saying they will fail, I just figure while it's apart why not?

good luck, i expect to hear another "i broke my engine" thread from you in the next month or two

The build book says not to use them in applications over 300hp. My machine shop said it was not a good idea to use them. I told them that they are similar to sb Chevy pink rods, but they said they would be inadequate. I'm not saying they will fail, I just figure while it's apart why not?

I think you are confusing the 2.2 build book with the LSJ's build book. The 2.0 are forged and will do just fine for most people's needs.

http://cobaltss.net/gallery/files/3/6/5/0/BuildBookList.jpg

^^^ Thank you, that's what I was refering to.

In the LSJ build book it says the stock rods "...are more than capable of handling 300 hp..."
I can not afford the JBP rip off rods, it would be cheaper to get a set custom CNC machined.

Then again there is also this from the LSJ 300hp build book.
http://cobaltss.net/gallery/files/3/6/5/0/LSJ300Build.jpg

Yeah I saw that too... It seems like there is so much conflicting info out there. I didn't want to take the chance so I just got some eagle rods and had the crank machined.

Had the crank machined? What do you mean? Do you mean you had the crank lightened?

Had the crank machined? What do you mean? Do you mean you had the crank lightened?

No, the big end (where it attaches to the crank) on the 2.2 rods is not the same size as the big end of the 2.0 rods, it's smaller. My solution was to make the crank fit the rods.

Wow. Not the route I would have gone, but I guess it should work. Make sure you get the right pistons for the rods. They L61 rod is longer than the LSJ rod.

http://cobaltss.net/gallery/files/3/6/5/0/LSJvsL61.jpg

Yeah the only reason i did it that way was because I allready had custom pistons made

Why would you ruin the crank like that and make it weaker?

It's not very much material, maybe .0200

So did you end up getting any sleeve damage? Any pictures of the piston?

I would wait and save to do it right the first time. You probably don't want to open this motor up again. I know my car has been in the air for 5 months now.

so is this 300 hp at the wheels or crank? does anyone besdies jbp make rods for our cars and how much do they run?

Only JBP makes rods for our cars, price is listed on their site, but it will vary depending on vender. Probably around $800+ USD range.

Only JBP makes rods for our cars, price is listed on their site, but it will vary depending on vender. Probably around $800+ USD range.

:thumbsdow R-I-P O-F-F

ok I am starting to follow this thread.... I am running the 2.2 headgasket so if I read everything right then I shouldnt go anything less 9.5:1 because it will increase the chances of detonation?

:thumbsdow R-I-P O-F-F

fixed it for you

ok I am starting to follow this thread.... I am running the 2.2 headgasket so if I read everything right then I shouldnt go anything less 9.5:1 because it will increase the chances of detonation?

No. Lower compression decreases the risk of detonation. The more boost you want, the lower the compression. As for the 2.2 gasket you should be ok. It is slightly thicker than the 2.0 gasket so it lowered your compression slightly.

No. Lower compression decreases the risk of detonation. The more boost you want, the lower the compression. As for the 2.2 gasket you should be ok. It is slightly thicker than the 2.0 gasket so it lowered your compression slightly.

Damn George! You tell him that the thicker gasket is cool, but I get bitched at by Cameron for throwing out the idea of a slightly thicker gasket! So what's the deal, is it okay on a boosted motor or not? :wtf::lol:

Thicker is not better, but the difference is very slight with 2.2 and 2.0. The 2.2 Cometic is also design to handle boost though.

yo cameron how is the build coming along?, and i showed my cousin your fly by video and he pretty much was like HOLY SHIT!!!! and im leaving florida guys, talk to you guys when im back in new york peace!!!!

Ima be done before you Cam :D I finally ordered everything I need at once today.

Ima be done before you Cam :D I finally ordered everything I need at once today.

Yeah he is still waiting to get all the money together. :thumbsdow

Ima be done before you Cam :D I finally ordered everything I need at once today.

Yeah, but once mine is done, it will smoke yours :guns:

Psh, as long as we are both still using the m62 I would love to see it. Twinscrew is on hold for me until I see how Dans massive turbo works out.

I would never desicrate my car with a turbo. I'm doing a twin screw, prolly gonna weld a sheet metal intake at work. If I can't find a used W75AX, I'll use a W140AX. Should turn out around 45 psi boost with the W140 :lol:

I would never desicrate my car with a turbo. I'm doing a twin screw, prolly gonna weld a sheet metal intake at work. If I can't find a used W75AX, I'll use a W140AX. Should turn out around 45 psi boost with the W140 :lol:

Good luck.....:)

desecrate? The motor had a Turbo before the S/C. GM did the desecration.

But in the end I guess we shall see who is teh fast@r.

So what are you doing as far as rods and pistons anyway? Anything definite?

I'm taking my rods out tomorrow and giving them up, so they can be measured and stuff. In the end I should get a set of CNC machined rods back, prolly able to handle 1000+ hp LOL. I'm still lookin for pistons thats aren't $700 or more. No luck yet :(

LMAO!!! Someone gave me a bad rep point from this thread for
"Ignorance based on heresay and opinion, not fact"
^^^LM:lol:AO^^^ Unless they work at an engine building shop like I do, that is just HALARIOUS!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ok, so update! I decided to go with 9.5:1 pistons, cheaper, more power with the eaton, and I should still be able to run the best amount of timing with 109 octane once I get the twin screw. The 9.5:1 pistons are $200-$300 CHEAPER than custom made 8.5:1 pistons.

Yay!!!

You still using custom rods?

Well Cobalt_Supercharged said it should be possible. I wanna make em outta 4340 and be able to hold at least 1000 hp.

We will see. 4340 is good stuff (90,000 psi tensile strength), but the problem may be splitting the bearing cap from the rod. Normally they are fracture split which leaves an uneven surface that allows for more surface area. I don't think I will have access to something like like that so we may have to resort to just machining them seperatly from the same piece of stock.

Also 4340 is is strongest when forged to make E4340. Very strong and the same material that the JBP rods are made of to reach "700-750 hp"

I'll have to talk to m instructors some more about it when I have a rod, some dimensions, and a specific material to work with. I'll also create a few different designs and analyze them to see which has the best structural integrity with each material discussed.

Sounds iffy and time consuming. Lol. GL though.

No. Lower compression decreases the risk of detonation. The more boost you want, the lower the compression. As for the 2.2 gasket you should be ok. It is slightly thicker than the 2.0 gasket so it lowered your compression slightly.

I think you are wrong, after reading your links I think Cameron needs a Bigger Cam, Retard the timing, Run leaner, and not worry about octane, then his Banger will be a screamer ;)

^ ^ You mean he would be a screamer as he scrounged to find the peices of his motor scattered for a 2 mile radius. :lol:

So after all this you expect your times to be what? 14.9 @ 115 ? Lol...

haha Cameron did you ever find those pistons?

Contact diamond and get a custom set made, or use a lower compression 2.2 piston rod combo.

stroke that bitch to 2.2L IMO.
And since the motor is out, and it will be easy, you might as well convert to a return-style fuel system. Maybe you can save #4 from blowing again.

I think you are wrong, after reading your links I think Cameron needs a Bigger Cam, Retard the timing, Run leaner, and not worry about octane, then his Banger will be a screamer ;)

You put a skyline block in that car in your Sig? Holy shit!

Pics?

Screw the Eaton, get a Whipple ;)

I would never desicrate my car with a turbo. I'm doing a twin screw, prolly gonna weld a sheet metal intake at work. If I can't find a used W75AX, I'll use a W140AX. Should turn out around 45 psi boost with the W140 :lol:


Well I wont say I am an expert but I do have some mechanical knowledge to say this article seems to make sense. you are doing drag racing for sure you want turbo. but each to their own. heres an article from ZZP.

https://www.zzperformance.com/cobalt_ion/articles1.php?id=55

You put a skyline block in that car in your Sig? Holy shit!
Pics?

Lol, yeah I did :) I thought why not switch out the old 6 for a new one. Right now the motor is teared down getting cleaned, installinga JUN crank collar, A NISMO gasket set and race oil pump. I have been taking pics and videos of the entire process and you guys will be the first to see it

im looking to go with the 8.5:1 also

holy old post. 8.5:1 I wonder if Blown is really still doing this since he wants to be SC. I would think he should go 10:1 instead. Would have to read up on that but instead maybe he can just chime in here.

He went with the stock 9.5:1 for drivability. If the M62 doesn't meet his efficiency/power requirements the next step is to save for a different SC.

im looking to go with the 8.5:1 also

What are your plans for the engine? You need to plan well in advance with this motor. There are a few different routes to take to building the internals, some routes are easier and cheaper than others. Blown 4-banger can attest to that.

He went with the stock 9.5:1 for drivability. If the M62 doesn't meet his efficiency/power requirements the next step is to save for a different SC.



What are your plans for the engine? You need to plan well in advance with this motor. There are a few different routes to take to building the internals, some routes are easier and cheaper than others. Blown 4-banger can attest to that.

well if you cant decide stay stock compression. but if you know your going turbo or SC then it is easier.

In general, if you are going high boost you should lower the compression period. The only reason you would raise the compression is if you didn't want to run as much boost for the same amount of power. If you plan on upgrading the blower or converting to turbo, lower the compression. If you want to keep the M62 but get more power, raise the compression and keep the boost lower where the M62 is more efficient.

You also have to consider what fuel you plan to use and how available it is in your area. In Arizona there are only 2 gas stations that we know of that sell anything over 91. :thumbsdow

First off. DAYUM!!!! Necro-posting FTL!?!?!

Also, I went with 9.5:1 pistons, because I got used to tuning with 9.5:1 compression, and just as Cobalt_Supercharged said, in AZ the best we have is 91 shitane, not to mention the 130+ degree IAT1 4 months out of the year. I ran 15 degrees of timing DURING THE WINTER on 91 octane, and still had some minor issues with knock at higher speeds. The motor blew up before summer, so I can't imagine it during the summer. So basically, 10:1 compression would mean running a mix of 91 and race gas all the time. FUCK THAT!!! :nono: