Dano22

With the new GM turbo upgrade or stage kit, would this make the car fall into DSP or SM. Thanks.

Buzz65

More power doesn't necessarily help. You need to be able to put that power to the ground. I would suggest if you're going to do some mods, lighter wider wheels, Sticky rubber and good suspension.

JT-KGY

does GM upgrade modify boost?

Illini_06SS

Yes.

I'm not sure what is all changed with the stage kit - what all comes with it? The parts you change out will determine what class you get put into.

I'm not certain, but GM Stage 1 may only put you into STX since it's basically just a tune and sensor change...

scottherbert

DSP, same class I'm in, but you could move up to SMF if you wanted... It's a 'sensor' mod and a computer reflash, both legal within SP rules -- you're not modifying the turbo, you're changing the computer settings that handle airflow, spark timing and fuel....

I know I won't move to SM -- way too much money.

Scott

Oops, you can also run in STX if you want. I run in STX (a street tire class) in the winter to save $$$ on Hoosier slicks.

Scott

Dano22

Alright thanks.

I'm just trying to figure what I should do first. I will be doing autocross and track days and I just need to balance everything out. Tires are probably number 1 and I know the GM kit will pay off a lot more on the road course rather than in autocross.

Maven

iTrader: (1)

I would stay in stock and run better tires.

Force

This. The TC already has enough power to easily over-power the front tires on tight courses like you see in Auto-X. You'll spend the entire time trying to limit excessive wheelspin and throttle-induced understeer. For road course racing I could see an upgrade being highly useful (I'm sure Venom09 will clean up next season), but for Auto-X I'd agree on wider, stickier rubber.

I personally can't wait to see someone fender roll one of these things, throw on 255 R-Comps, and get a tune... Imagine the cars one of those could destroy on a big road course.

JT-KGY

You can now modify boost in ST classes?
I remember those Evos cant touch their boost back in my STU days...

Illini_06SS

You're right. SCCA Rules state in 14.10 F:

Force

Is Stage 1 really changing stock boost levels, though? The car can achieve 22psi of boost stock, it's just rare that the PCM ever calls for it. So by simply fixing the boost at the stock maximum (which as far as I know, Stage 1 does), can you really consider it increased?

I guess this falls under modifying the boost controls, though.

JT-KGY

Ya.. it's never clear to me...
You can modify ECU timing/fuel but no boost.. however
Boost changes indirectly from exhaust/instake are allowed....

But how do you tell one from the other?
(how do you catch those that cheat?)

scottherbert

Don't get confused by the words, you aren't 'modifying' boost -- by any means described in the reguations. You have replaced two sensors (OK) and modified the computer (also OK) -- you haven't done anything to the turbo -- you didn't install a boost controller, you didn't fiddle with the waste gate settings, you haven't added a bigger turbo or a second turbo -- you haven't modifed the boost.

Everything done by the GMS1 is within the rules.

Won't apply to stock. But DSP, STX, and SMF are all OK.

Scott

One more comment: if you just change the part you've made bold, you have the answer.

The engine management system parameters and operation may
be modified only via the methods listed below. Any and all
modifications must meet or exceed the applicable EPA tailpipe
emissions standards for the year, make, and model of the car.
These allowances also apply to forced induction cars, except that
no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost
controls are permitted. Boost changes indirectly resulting from
allowed modifications are permissible, but directly altering or
modifying the boost or turbo controls, either mechanically or
electronically, is strictly prohibited.

Scott

JT-KGY

but I remember cars like Evo... you can fool the ECU (via piggyback) to let it hold at
higher boost longer... (modifying boost via ECU...) or I'm guessing simply modify the ECU
to change the max and duration of the boost level is also possible....??

Wouldnt boost change via ECU fall under... altering/modifying boost electronically...?

Maven

iTrader: (1)

My interpretation is that GMS1 is most definitely NOT allowed in stock. You are electronically changing boost controls first of all, second of all you are changing parts.

Force

Yes, but you're not changing the factory boost controls to allow higher than factory boost - you're merely locking in the maximum STOCK boost allowable.

JT-KGY

ya.. thats altering boost electronically...

i guess we can post on sccaforums to get a clearer explanation...

JapEatr

iTrader: (9)

how would they know...there is no way to visably tell the diff.

Buzz65

A lot of autocross groups use the honor system. They leave it up to you to say/reveal what mods/upgrades you've done to your car. I CAN tell you this. If one of my fellow competitors started beating me I would be more than inclined..(and allowed) to ask him to take a look at his engine bay. Those nice new sensors stick out like sore thumbs when you compare them to the old ones. I would raise that flag immediately.

If he/she tried to get away with 'cheating' then there is no room for someone like that in most autocross groups.

scottherbert

Maven's absolutely right -- dead on the money, the GMS1 is definitely outside the Stock Class rules.

Classes aren't an 'I'll pick one' kind of deal. Almost the only exception would be something like DSP to STX -- and there are things you can do in STX that you can't do in DSP, and vice versa. My Cobalt SS just happens to meet both rulesets. Do I really want to run in STX? No, I don't, but the cost of slicks is high ($1300) and I need to save that money for the next Nationals. I can also make every effort to become a better driver with the crappy traction from STX approved tires -- even the best STX tires really SUCK compared to Hoosier slicks. I've been out once in STX -- I placed 3rd out of 9 STX cars -- not great, but I was also on very, very used Falken Azenis that I could spin under power at will -- even before the GMS1. Do I think I could be 1st in STX locally, possibly, but it still not as much fun as slicks!

Let me give you another example about the rules: I used to have a Saturn Redline that I ran in D Stock, I upgraded to a GMS1 for my Saturn -- only new injectors and a reflash -- presto, I was in DSP, if I had gone to the Stage II -- a smaller pulley -- I would have had to race in SM.

Since I couldn't get racing springs for my Saturn, I used 'lowering' springs with NASCAR-style 'spring rubbers' to stiffen the suspension. The 'spring rubbers' were questioned by an inspector at a National Tour Event tech inspection -- but after discussing with some others, he let it go that once. I read the rules again, spoke with my local SCCA rules guy (who agreed with me -- and said so in writing), and petitioned SCCA for a ruling based on how I read the rules -- they agreed -- so I was able to use the 'spring rubbers'. Had I waited til a Nationals, I'd have been protested.

You've got to read the rules!

Look, if you're driving kind of OK, then a better car probably means a better finish. If you're a great driver, you can probably finish well even in a piece of crap car. If you make the car as good as possible, within the rules, and you 'sort it out', then you have the opportunity to become a better driver -- and a great driver with a great car is unbeatable!

When I was setting-up my Cobalt, I asked lots of people (including many national champions -- FWD, AWD, and RWD) lots of questions -- one example, I asked about springs and sways. Most SCCA autocrossers said go with about 500-750 lb front springs and 600-1000 lb rear springs and don't add more rear swaybar. The Cobalt Time Attack crew said 450 lb springs front and rear and OTTP killer swaybar in the rear. Completely different approaches -- BTW, how you drive makes a difference in setup as well as the parts. But the 'real' race cars are hundreds of pounds lighter than a stock Cobalt; the racers use very expensive, completely custom axles; custom shocks & coilovers; mounted at different locations; different - adjustable springs; custom brakes; different gearing; etc.; etc.; etc.. Is it really a direct comparison -- no, it isn't! It makes for a good start-point and it is experience that most of us probably don't have -- so learn from it. Was I happy with my 550 fronts/650 rears and no extra sways at the Nationals? Yes, was. Was it the best solution, I'm not so sure. And for STX I'm running 360 fronts/250 rears with an extra sway -- just trying something different -- and I've run with stock suspentionin the past too. I'm thinking that I'm going to try disconnecting the front sway --- with the stiffest springs --- and give that a try too. You need to know where your going and make decisions based on what is allowed.

Bottom line, you need to make a decision, based on the rules (and your wallet), and plan your purchases and mods to meet those rules. I found out in Stock (and in DSP), if you don't do EVERYTHING the rules allow, you won't be competitive at the National level. If you do EVERYTHING, then you've got a chance -- it becomes more driver, less car, assuming that the parts you could use are available -- and just so you know, there's no where near as many Cobalt racing parts as you can find pretty easily for a BMW, VW, STi, Civic, Audi -- you get the picture. We're at a disadvantage from the beginning. The SS is pretty darned good, but it's not at the same level as any of the other cars I mentioned.

And for those who think that no one will notice that you're running a GMS1 in Stock, don't kid yourself, you're probably right at the local level and probably even at National Tour Events, but if you ever get to a Nationals, you should assume that some competitor knows about Stage Kit and is prepared to protest.

You wouldn't believe all the protests that came out of this year's Nationals. One guy said it right; 'If you're an also ran, nobody cares, but if you're placing, or, god forbid, in the top three, you can guarantee that you'll be protested.'

Once more, our flash doesn't 'control' the boost, it changes air and fuel flow. If those changes 'incidentally' cause the boost to rise under certain circumstantes, then it's OK.

One of the things you'll need to do, 'if' you plan to compete seriously in anything (but it applies to SCCA or NASA too), you need to get the rule book, every year (this is required by SCCA -- if you compete at any national levels - you have to show them your rule book at registration), read the rule book, read every word very, very closely, read other chapters (you'd be amazed at how the rules relate), and completely understand what it says. If you don't, or can't do this, you'll have a rough time competing.

Scott

jboogie

iTrader: (3)

As I read it GMS1 would not be allowed due to the fact it modifies boost, not necessarily the boost level since it can reach 22psi stock but modifies how the boost comes on which is modifying boost IMO. So, there for not being allowed in STX. But it's really confusing and could be read either way I think.

Not that more power would benefit us much.

JoeBMX

So SMF DSP STX? What's the final anwser for a GMS1 SS/TC?

scottherbert

I think this has been pretty well covered -- No for DS, Yes for DSP, or SM (and you can be on DOT race rubber), or STX with street rubber. I will point out that I routinely race in DSP and STX, I used to race in DS -- to include at many SCCA National Tour Events and the SCCA US Nationals.

Everyone has lots of 'opinions' about this, you might think about giving more credance to those very few of us who regularly autocross race -- people who have cars that have successfully been through many tech inspections many times. I have the GMS1 on my car -- in DSP. Over the past several years, I have only seen two other Cobalts at the events I've run -- both in DS -- at National Tours or the Nationals.

There's lots of opportunities for autocross participation for Cobalts, but there aren't many participants -- how does the saying go, 'heap big smoke, but no fire'.

However, here are the 2010 SCCA Rules: http://www.scca.com/documents/Solo_R...inal_draft.pdf

and: http://www.scca.com/documents/Solo_R...inal_draft.pdf

Be sure to read both, the first is the general rules, the second is class specific. And you need to understand Stock BEFORE you read about SP, STX, or SM.

Scott
2009 Cobalt SS, DSP

jboogie

iTrader: (3)

These allowances also apply
to forced induction cars, except that no changes to standard boost
levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted. Boost changes
indirectly resulting from allowed modifications are permissible, but
directly altering or modifying the boost or turbo controls, either
mechanically or electronically, is strictly prohibited.

So, GMS1 in STX sounds like a big grey area to me.

scottherbert

The section highlighted says it all. The changes from a GMS1 are all "indirectly" related to boost -- they directly change peak RPM (which can potentially add turbo RPM -- ergo boost) and the fuel flow vs air flow ratios (which can potentially add turbo RPM -- ergo boost). There's nothing in the documentation or published data from GM that speaks to directly modifying the turbo! Far from it. And I've seen no valid tests that demonstrate significant boost increases-- at the 6250 RPM speeds -- there are no 'before-and-after' boost level tests. All we have are anecdotal thoughts that the boost has risen -- drawn from looking quickly at the not-completely-accurate boost guage.

Bottom line: don't worry about it! No one in STX will care -- particularly if you haven't already won the National Championship in STX (if you've done that, expect to be protested for everything you've ever done to your car -- boost levels will be the least of your probems).

Scott