Rotated mount installation M35 LSJ/LNF
05-14-2014, 11:12 AM
#77
Senior Member
Since im getting my gmpp clutch and cabs installed soon, do you think the mounts are a job my mechanic could do without seeing this how to? Im not too confident with this install knowing that the engine and trans could shift. And mine are for a lnf so to loosen the top bolts I would have to remove my intake, correct?
05-17-2014, 01:37 PM
#80
Senior Member
06-24-2014, 07:23 AM
#81
I installed the rotated mounts and honestly believe they are backyard engineered. The front mount was dimensionally the same as the stock - hole to hole. The rear mount was approx. a 3/8in taller. I had to loosen the upper mounts and jack up the motor and still the rear mount was forced together. The upper mounts support the weight of the motor. The lower mounts prevent rotation. Simply increasing the height of the rear mount causes much weight of the motor to be transferred to that rear mount. How many of you have had these mounts installed for more than a year. I suspect the rear mount bushing or the mount itself will fail due to overload.
I ended up removing my rotated rear mount and installed GM part 20814995. This mount is superior to the original and there is no need to force things together. I kept the aftermarket front mount. This configuration is obviously not rotated but certainly stiffened the entire drivetrain. I experienced minimal vibration with the rotated mounts and none with the GM rear mount.
The whole idea of loosening the upper mounts to let the bolts fall to one side of the oversized holes is clearly ill conceived. You can swing the motor front to back by redesigning the lower mounts but lifting the motor with the rear mount is just wrong. Clearly the mounts being sold are the cause of your vibrations.
Sorry but I cannot recommend the rotated mounts.
I ended up removing my rotated rear mount and installed GM part 20814995. This mount is superior to the original and there is no need to force things together. I kept the aftermarket front mount. This configuration is obviously not rotated but certainly stiffened the entire drivetrain. I experienced minimal vibration with the rotated mounts and none with the GM rear mount.
The whole idea of loosening the upper mounts to let the bolts fall to one side of the oversized holes is clearly ill conceived. You can swing the motor front to back by redesigning the lower mounts but lifting the motor with the rear mount is just wrong. Clearly the mounts being sold are the cause of your vibrations.
Sorry but I cannot recommend the rotated mounts.
06-24-2014, 03:25 PM
#82
It's hard to know where to start replying to your post. As we say the rear mount is raised and the front is lowered and as a result the middle torque axis mounts must allow the motor to move forward ( that is very logical up 10 mm rear dorm 10 mm front) you then day "ill conceived"
So how do you figure that? We are not moving the engine a whole lot. We first made these mounts with stock housings. Then expensive alloy. Now less expensive steel TIG welded in
A jig fixture and powdercoated. Over the years since 2004 we have made hundreds of mounts. Occasionally someone comes along like you. Calls it not good then sticks the rear spacer in a stock mount setup. That's just sad. My take. Yes I developed these mounts in 2004 and the logic the work and the validation was done inside a GM performance division race program
That they hired me and paid me to produce. By all
Accounts it was successful
And here I am driving a delta with rotated mounts and living the good life everyday without wheel
Hop. SMH
So how do you figure that? We are not moving the engine a whole lot. We first made these mounts with stock housings. Then expensive alloy. Now less expensive steel TIG welded in
A jig fixture and powdercoated. Over the years since 2004 we have made hundreds of mounts. Occasionally someone comes along like you. Calls it not good then sticks the rear spacer in a stock mount setup. That's just sad. My take. Yes I developed these mounts in 2004 and the logic the work and the validation was done inside a GM performance division race program
That they hired me and paid me to produce. By all
Accounts it was successful
And here I am driving a delta with rotated mounts and living the good life everyday without wheel
Hop. SMH
06-24-2014, 03:39 PM
#83
I installed the rotated mounts and honestly believe they are backyard engineered. The front mount was dimensionally the same as the stock - hole to hole. The rear mount was approx. a 3/8in taller. I had to loosen the upper mounts and jack up the motor and still the rear mount was forced together. The upper mounts support the weight of the motor. The lower mounts prevent rotation. Simply increasing the height of the rear mount causes much weight of the motor to be transferred to that rear mount. How many of you have had these mounts installed for more than a year. I suspect the rear mount bushing or the mount itself will fail due to overload.
I ended up removing my rotated rear mount and installed GM part 20814995. This mount is superior to the original and there is no need to force things together. I kept the aftermarket front mount. This configuration is obviously not rotated but certainly stiffened the entire drivetrain. I experienced minimal vibration with the rotated mounts and none with the GM rear mount.
The whole idea of loosening the upper mounts to let the bolts fall to one side of the oversized holes is clearly ill conceived. You can swing the motor front to back by redesigning the lower mounts but lifting the motor with the rear mount is just wrong. Clearly the mounts being sold are the cause of your vibrations.
Sorry but I cannot recommend the rotated mounts.
I ended up removing my rotated rear mount and installed GM part 20814995. This mount is superior to the original and there is no need to force things together. I kept the aftermarket front mount. This configuration is obviously not rotated but certainly stiffened the entire drivetrain. I experienced minimal vibration with the rotated mounts and none with the GM rear mount.
The whole idea of loosening the upper mounts to let the bolts fall to one side of the oversized holes is clearly ill conceived. You can swing the motor front to back by redesigning the lower mounts but lifting the motor with the rear mount is just wrong. Clearly the mounts being sold are the cause of your vibrations.
Sorry but I cannot recommend the rotated mounts.
And who's mounts are they?
06-25-2014, 08:03 PM
#85
Same here. That guy needs to go do some more measuring. First of all, the bolt hole dimensions are always going to be the same, otherwise the mount won't bolt to the trans/frame. Secondly, the upper mounts do prevent rotation, which is why the ingalls torque dampener was so effective when these cars first came out.
06-26-2014, 10:09 AM
#86
I've reccomended these to anyone who asks.
Although mine were not purchased from Powell, they are still his design, and a fantastic part.
I noticed a difference almost immediately - although it's hard to remember what the difference was because I have been runnign them for so long.
IMO, mjtct is either an outright tool, or looking to discredit a fantasitc part for some sort of round about gain.
Although mine were not purchased from Powell, they are still his design, and a fantastic part.
I noticed a difference almost immediately - although it's hard to remember what the difference was because I have been runnign them for so long.
IMO, mjtct is either an outright tool, or looking to discredit a fantasitc part for some sort of round about gain.
06-26-2014, 10:54 AM
#87
I've reccomended these to anyone who asks.
Although mine were not purchased from Powell, they are still his design, and a fantastic part.
I noticed a difference almost immediately - although it's hard to remember what the difference was because I have been runnign them for so long.
IMO, mjtct is either an outright tool, or looking to discredit a fantasitc part for some sort of round about gain.
Although mine were not purchased from Powell, they are still his design, and a fantastic part.
I noticed a difference almost immediately - although it's hard to remember what the difference was because I have been runnign them for so long.
IMO, mjtct is either an outright tool, or looking to discredit a fantasitc part for some sort of round about gain.
06-26-2014, 11:13 AM
#88
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
I installed the rotated mounts and honestly believe they are backyard engineered. The front mount was dimensionally the same as the stock - hole to hole. The rear mount was approx. a 3/8in taller. I had to loosen the upper mounts and jack up the motor and still the rear mount was forced together. The upper mounts support the weight of the motor. The lower mounts prevent rotation. Simply increasing the height of the rear mount causes much weight of the motor to be transferred to that rear mount. How many of you have had these mounts installed for more than a year. I suspect the rear mount bushing or the mount itself will fail due to overload.
I ended up removing my rotated rear mount and installed GM part 20814995. This mount is superior to the original and there is no need to force things together. I kept the aftermarket front mount. This configuration is obviously not rotated but certainly stiffened the entire drivetrain. I experienced minimal vibration with the rotated mounts and none with the GM rear mount.
The whole idea of loosening the upper mounts to let the bolts fall to one side of the oversized holes is clearly ill conceived. You can swing the motor front to back by redesigning the lower mounts but lifting the motor with the rear mount is just wrong. Clearly the mounts being sold are the cause of your vibrations.
Sorry but I cannot recommend the rotated mounts.
I ended up removing my rotated rear mount and installed GM part 20814995. This mount is superior to the original and there is no need to force things together. I kept the aftermarket front mount. This configuration is obviously not rotated but certainly stiffened the entire drivetrain. I experienced minimal vibration with the rotated mounts and none with the GM rear mount.
The whole idea of loosening the upper mounts to let the bolts fall to one side of the oversized holes is clearly ill conceived. You can swing the motor front to back by redesigning the lower mounts but lifting the motor with the rear mount is just wrong. Clearly the mounts being sold are the cause of your vibrations.
Sorry but I cannot recommend the rotated mounts.
I've been on Powell's mounts for over a year and no vibe, no wheel hop, but I also installed them correctly following Powell's install guide.
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03-17-2020, 05:19 PM
#94
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Join Date: 03-17-20
Location: Michigan
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Sometimes I have gotten feedback that folks have installed rotated mounts and have vibrations. That really should not happen, although the mounts will not have the same isolation as stock, the inserts are stiffer and there is no real way around that,
The principle behind the mounts is to rotate the motor up at the back, down at the front, to move the axle out put shafts in better alignment with the axle output flange at the knuckle. The rotation was developed and engineered with help from GM, when I was under contract to produce Cobalt road race cars in 2004/2005.
So you know.
As OTT copied my mounts, under an agreement they made with me, and which later OTT reneged totally with great prejudice to me,if their mounts give trouble go see them.
That said, I will be happy to help and advise customers and non customers, who have issues with mount installation, as best I can, My mounts are different .
I also know a lot more about these mounts than most folks do. Its easy, I drive the delta platform and work on the platform every day servicing customer cars, and working on race cars and my own car.
Like ZZP we have a full service race shop. Unlike ZZP we dont build customer motors , I rely on Kurt Urban for LS motors, and GMR for my LSJ stuff, and a local engine re build shop for machine work.
So understand that the rotated mount concept exploits the soft driver side torque axis mount, and repositions the passenger side mount as the shoulder bolts that secure these mounts have a large hole in the mount that permits relocation.
Please note that the automatic transmission Delta's do not need this type of rotation, the car was designed for the automatic, and the manual transmissions happen to be about 15 mm out of alignment by comparison.
Here we go:
Today I installed a stage 1 mount in an LSJ . I did it,not on the hoist as we normally do, but on two jack stands, figuring that is the way most folks will do it on their own.
1. First job is to get the car properly secured , well up in the air and on jack stands. Then using a piece of wood to spread jacking load, gently support the engine at the transmission differential area.
Now go up top and release a couple/three turns the top passenger side mount bolts. (15 mm socket)
2. Now go underneath and remove the 3 bolts that go through the cradle pedestal (15 mm socket)
Then release the three rear motor mount bolts that locate the entire rear mount bracket to the transmission bell housing.
3. you will notice the bolts in all these cases have shoulders. That's important. Also don't remove all the bolts from the rear mount bracket. If you do for any reason, be sure to start each bolt by hand /don't tighten one bolt hard and then the next. The bracket will distort and make installation difficult.
4. Now raise the rear of the motor (the jack is already in position) and install the keyhole spacer (stage 1). Then lower the motor and replace the 3 long pedestal bolts by hand, not tight.
4 A
NOTE:If installing stage 2 mounts remove the entire rear mount bracket, (use a Christmas tree fastener removal tool to remover the 02 sensor clips) install the new rear mount, which does not require a key hole spacer, do not tighten the cross bolt and the re-install the bracket and mount assembly.
5. Go to the front. Reposition the jack so it is forward under the pan/bell housing area.
6. Remove the front mount completely.
7. Then offer up the new front mount and start the two bolts that secure the mount to the transmission. Snug them up but not tight.
8. Now lower the motor so the mount lines up with the through bolt holes, place the spacers provided, one each side, and snug the cross bolt.
NOTE: there are four mounts on any delta. The front and rear ones are quite firm, rubber inserts with voids.
the top mounts, are actually referred to as “torque axis” mounts. The passenger one is quite firm the drivers side is very soft. Very soft.
so when on jack stands, its possible for the motor to slide over to the soft side and compress the new front mount to one side.
This could be left that way, and stack the two spacers together, BUT if you do this the motor will not be “balanced” on the mounts and excessive vibration may result. repostion the jack, and using a lever move the motor assembly back to the passenger side and place the spacers correctly on each side of the mount.
9. Now all the mounts are in place, torque all the fasteners, starting the rear lower, the rear bracket, the front mount and then back up to the top.
average torque is about 40 ft lbs...individual specific torque values can be found by searching 37/42/76 etc.
10. If working on a 2.2 f23 manual, with our F23 mount set,
this is a composite mount with 4 bolt mounting to trans and engine. On the F23 access is convenient, and you can loosen the driver side mount bracket bolts (there are three) to help balance the motor. I do not do this on LSJ and LNF assemblies, the drivers side mount is very soft and compliant.
Hope this helps.
The principle behind the mounts is to rotate the motor up at the back, down at the front, to move the axle out put shafts in better alignment with the axle output flange at the knuckle. The rotation was developed and engineered with help from GM, when I was under contract to produce Cobalt road race cars in 2004/2005.
So you know.
As OTT copied my mounts, under an agreement they made with me, and which later OTT reneged totally with great prejudice to me,if their mounts give trouble go see them.
That said, I will be happy to help and advise customers and non customers, who have issues with mount installation, as best I can, My mounts are different .
I also know a lot more about these mounts than most folks do. Its easy, I drive the delta platform and work on the platform every day servicing customer cars, and working on race cars and my own car.
Like ZZP we have a full service race shop. Unlike ZZP we dont build customer motors , I rely on Kurt Urban for LS motors, and GMR for my LSJ stuff, and a local engine re build shop for machine work.
So understand that the rotated mount concept exploits the soft driver side torque axis mount, and repositions the passenger side mount as the shoulder bolts that secure these mounts have a large hole in the mount that permits relocation.
Please note that the automatic transmission Delta's do not need this type of rotation, the car was designed for the automatic, and the manual transmissions happen to be about 15 mm out of alignment by comparison.
Here we go:
Today I installed a stage 1 mount in an LSJ . I did it,not on the hoist as we normally do, but on two jack stands, figuring that is the way most folks will do it on their own.
1. First job is to get the car properly secured , well up in the air and on jack stands. Then using a piece of wood to spread jacking load, gently support the engine at the transmission differential area.
Now go up top and release a couple/three turns the top passenger side mount bolts. (15 mm socket)
2. Now go underneath and remove the 3 bolts that go through the cradle pedestal (15 mm socket)
Then release the three rear motor mount bolts that locate the entire rear mount bracket to the transmission bell housing.
3. you will notice the bolts in all these cases have shoulders. That's important. Also don't remove all the bolts from the rear mount bracket. If you do for any reason, be sure to start each bolt by hand /don't tighten one bolt hard and then the next. The bracket will distort and make installation difficult.
4. Now raise the rear of the motor (the jack is already in position) and install the keyhole spacer (stage 1). Then lower the motor and replace the 3 long pedestal bolts by hand, not tight.
4 A
NOTE:If installing stage 2 mounts remove the entire rear mount bracket, (use a Christmas tree fastener removal tool to remover the 02 sensor clips) install the new rear mount, which does not require a key hole spacer, do not tighten the cross bolt and the re-install the bracket and mount assembly.
5. Go to the front. Reposition the jack so it is forward under the pan/bell housing area.
6. Remove the front mount completely.
7. Then offer up the new front mount and start the two bolts that secure the mount to the transmission. Snug them up but not tight.
8. Now lower the motor so the mount lines up with the through bolt holes, place the spacers provided, one each side, and snug the cross bolt.
NOTE: there are four mounts on any delta. The front and rear ones are quite firm, rubber inserts with voids.
the top mounts, are actually referred to as “torque axis” mounts. The passenger one is quite firm the drivers side is very soft. Very soft.
so when on jack stands, its possible for the motor to slide over to the soft side and compress the new front mount to one side.
This could be left that way, and stack the two spacers together, BUT if you do this the motor will not be “balanced” on the mounts and excessive vibration may result. repostion the jack, and using a lever move the motor assembly back to the passenger side and place the spacers correctly on each side of the mount.
9. Now all the mounts are in place, torque all the fasteners, starting the rear lower, the rear bracket, the front mount and then back up to the top.
average torque is about 40 ft lbs...individual specific torque values can be found by searching 37/42/76 etc.
10. If working on a 2.2 f23 manual, with our F23 mount set,
this is a composite mount with 4 bolt mounting to trans and engine. On the F23 access is convenient, and you can loosen the driver side mount bracket bolts (there are three) to help balance the motor. I do not do this on LSJ and LNF assemblies, the drivers side mount is very soft and compliant.Hope this helps.
03-17-2020, 06:40 PM
#96
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Join Date: 03-17-20
Location: Michigan
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Received 0 Likes
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Sometimes I have gotten feedback that folks have installed rotated mounts and have vibrations. That really should not happen, although the mounts will not have the same isolation as stock, the inserts are stiffer and there is no real way around that,
The principle behind the mounts is to rotate the motor up at the back, down at the front, to move the axle out put shafts in better alignment with the axle output flange at the knuckle. The rotation was developed and engineered with help from GM, when I was under contract to produce Cobalt road race cars in 2004/2005.
So you know.
As OTT copied my mounts, under an agreement they made with me, and which later OTT reneged totally with great prejudice to me,if their mounts give trouble go see them.
That said, I will be happy to help and advise customers and non customers, who have issues with mount installation, as best I can, My mounts are different .
I also know a lot more about these mounts than most folks do. Its easy, I drive the delta platform and work on the platform every day servicing customer cars, and working on race cars and my own car.
Like ZZP we have a full service race shop. Unlike ZZP we dont build customer motors , I rely on Kurt Urban for LS motors, and GMR for my LSJ stuff, and a local engine re build shop for machine work.
So understand that the rotated mount concept exploits the soft driver side torque axis mount, and repositions the passenger side mount as the shoulder bolts that secure these mounts have a large hole in the mount that permits relocation.
Please note that the automatic transmission Delta's do not need this type of rotation, the car was designed for the automatic, and the manual transmissions happen to be about 15 mm out of alignment by comparison.
Here we go:
Today I installed a stage 1 mount in an LSJ . I did it,not on the hoist as we normally do, but on two jack stands, figuring that is the way most folks will do it on their own.
1. First job is to get the car properly secured , well up in the air and on jack stands. Then using a piece of wood to spread jacking load, gently support the engine at the transmission differential area.
Now go up top and release a couple/three turns the top passenger side mount bolts. (15 mm socket)
2. Now go underneath and remove the 3 bolts that go through the cradle pedestal (15 mm socket)
Then release the three rear motor mount bolts that locate the entire rear mount bracket to the transmission bell housing.
3. you will notice the bolts in all these cases have shoulders. That's important. Also don't remove all the bolts from the rear mount bracket. If you do for any reason, be sure to start each bolt by hand /don't tighten one bolt hard and then the next. The bracket will distort and make installation difficult.
4. Now raise the rear of the motor (the jack is already in position) and install the keyhole spacer (stage 1). Then lower the motor and replace the 3 long pedestal bolts by hand, not tight.
4 A
NOTE:If installing stage 2 mounts remove the entire rear mount bracket, (use a Christmas tree fastener removal tool to remover the 02 sensor clips) install the new rear mount, which does not require a key hole spacer, do not tighten the cross bolt and the re-install the bracket and mount assembly.
5. Go to the front. Reposition the jack so it is forward under the pan/bell housing area.
6. Remove the front mount completely.
7. Then offer up the new front mount and start the two bolts that secure the mount to the transmission. Snug them up but not tight.
8. Now lower the motor so the mount lines up with the through bolt holes, place the spacers provided, one each side, and snug the cross bolt.
NOTE: there are four mounts on any delta. The front and rear ones are quite firm, rubber inserts with voids.
the top mounts, are actually referred to as “torque axis” mounts. The passenger one is quite firm the drivers side is very soft. Very soft.
so when on jack stands, its possible for the motor to slide over to the soft side and compress the new front mount to one side.
This could be left that way, and stack the two spacers together, BUT if you do this the motor will not be “balanced” on the mounts and excessive vibration may result. repostion the jack, and using a lever move the motor assembly back to the passenger side and place the spacers correctly on each side of the mount.
9. Now all the mounts are in place, torque all the fasteners, starting the rear lower, the rear bracket, the front mount and then back up to the top.
average torque is about 40 ft lbs...individual specific torque values can be found by searching 37/42/76 etc.
10. If working on a 2.2 f23 manual, with our F23 mount set, this is a composite mount with 4 bolt mounting to trans and engine. On the F23 access is convenient, and you can loosen the driver side mount bracket bolts (there are three) to help balance the motor. I do not do this on LSJ and LNF assemblies, the drivers side mount is very soft and compliant.
Hope this helps.
The principle behind the mounts is to rotate the motor up at the back, down at the front, to move the axle out put shafts in better alignment with the axle output flange at the knuckle. The rotation was developed and engineered with help from GM, when I was under contract to produce Cobalt road race cars in 2004/2005.
So you know.
As OTT copied my mounts, under an agreement they made with me, and which later OTT reneged totally with great prejudice to me,if their mounts give trouble go see them.
That said, I will be happy to help and advise customers and non customers, who have issues with mount installation, as best I can, My mounts are different .
I also know a lot more about these mounts than most folks do. Its easy, I drive the delta platform and work on the platform every day servicing customer cars, and working on race cars and my own car.
Like ZZP we have a full service race shop. Unlike ZZP we dont build customer motors , I rely on Kurt Urban for LS motors, and GMR for my LSJ stuff, and a local engine re build shop for machine work.
So understand that the rotated mount concept exploits the soft driver side torque axis mount, and repositions the passenger side mount as the shoulder bolts that secure these mounts have a large hole in the mount that permits relocation.
Please note that the automatic transmission Delta's do not need this type of rotation, the car was designed for the automatic, and the manual transmissions happen to be about 15 mm out of alignment by comparison.
Here we go:
Today I installed a stage 1 mount in an LSJ . I did it,not on the hoist as we normally do, but on two jack stands, figuring that is the way most folks will do it on their own.
1. First job is to get the car properly secured , well up in the air and on jack stands. Then using a piece of wood to spread jacking load, gently support the engine at the transmission differential area.
Now go up top and release a couple/three turns the top passenger side mount bolts. (15 mm socket)
2. Now go underneath and remove the 3 bolts that go through the cradle pedestal (15 mm socket)
Then release the three rear motor mount bolts that locate the entire rear mount bracket to the transmission bell housing.
3. you will notice the bolts in all these cases have shoulders. That's important. Also don't remove all the bolts from the rear mount bracket. If you do for any reason, be sure to start each bolt by hand /don't tighten one bolt hard and then the next. The bracket will distort and make installation difficult.
4. Now raise the rear of the motor (the jack is already in position) and install the keyhole spacer (stage 1). Then lower the motor and replace the 3 long pedestal bolts by hand, not tight.
4 A
NOTE:If installing stage 2 mounts remove the entire rear mount bracket, (use a Christmas tree fastener removal tool to remover the 02 sensor clips) install the new rear mount, which does not require a key hole spacer, do not tighten the cross bolt and the re-install the bracket and mount assembly.
5. Go to the front. Reposition the jack so it is forward under the pan/bell housing area.
6. Remove the front mount completely.
7. Then offer up the new front mount and start the two bolts that secure the mount to the transmission. Snug them up but not tight.
8. Now lower the motor so the mount lines up with the through bolt holes, place the spacers provided, one each side, and snug the cross bolt.
NOTE: there are four mounts on any delta. The front and rear ones are quite firm, rubber inserts with voids.
the top mounts, are actually referred to as “torque axis” mounts. The passenger one is quite firm the drivers side is very soft. Very soft.
so when on jack stands, its possible for the motor to slide over to the soft side and compress the new front mount to one side.
This could be left that way, and stack the two spacers together, BUT if you do this the motor will not be “balanced” on the mounts and excessive vibration may result. repostion the jack, and using a lever move the motor assembly back to the passenger side and place the spacers correctly on each side of the mount.
9. Now all the mounts are in place, torque all the fasteners, starting the rear lower, the rear bracket, the front mount and then back up to the top.
average torque is about 40 ft lbs...individual specific torque values can be found by searching 37/42/76 etc.
10. If working on a 2.2 f23 manual, with our F23 mount set,
this is a composite mount with 4 bolt mounting to trans and engine. On the F23 access is convenient, and you can loosen the driver side mount bracket bolts (there are three) to help balance the motor. I do not do this on LSJ and LNF assemblies, the drivers side mount is very soft and compliant.Hope this helps.
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