UnkleRaRa

If you master heel-toe, you can down shift/engine brake, and use your regular brakes at the same time.

I always wondered if people notice my brake lights being on while blipping the throttle at the same time.

Slows you down way faster, and in a more controllable way than just slamming on the brakes in neutral.

If you brake in gear, instead of braking in neutral, you can really feel the engine help slow the car down.

If your braking while in gear, then clutch in, you can feel the car want to P/U momentum.

Pasierbek

Thank you! This is super helpful. All you guys have been great at breaking each skill of manual driving down step-by-step, that's how I learn best. First theory, then practice out on the road. What is P/U momentum?

UnkleRaRa

P/U = pickup

When you brake in gear, the car utilizes both the engine and brakes to slow down the forward momentum of the car.

If you braking while in gear, and then clutch in, you can feel the weight of the car wanting to push forward, causing you to have to brake harder, and increase the potential to skid or slide, especially when its slippy.

Pasierbek

So with all this being said, in a ideal world, you want to hell-toe downshift to come to a stop cause a)it slows you at the maximum stopping power b)leaves you in gear to avoid hazards c)allows you to rev match and save wear on the clutch. Is this correct? Since Im not at that level, the next best thing is to brake to the speed that I can smoothly blip the throttle just a bit to rev match, stay in second and brake until I can go to neutral at like 10mph and then brake to a full stop. Right? OP said to avoid downshifting into first cause you have to rev match perfectly or else it will lock you out of gear. Well it locks me out of gear most of the time or even gives me a violent jolt if I do manage to get it in.

footballplaya3k

iTrader: (1)

You guys are way oversimplifying heel-toeing. Do you guys know how difficult it is to master? And how hard you would be working to get a perfect heel-toe when dropping each gear?

I gave up on downshifting to a stop because it's impossible to eliminate clutch and synchro wear at every single downshift. Even if you are able to get a perfect downshift most of the time you will still be causing extra wear on the clutch and synchros sometimes.

Pasierbek

Well I want to learn downshifting cause I dont want to be left reving in neutral when I have to avoid a hazard and people say Oh brakes are cheaper to replace than a clutch? Yeah well guess what? We have Brembo brakes and those are not your average brake pads that you can just replace for a couple of cents. I would like to keep their use to a minimum just like my handbrake to have them around when I really DO need them.

UnkleRaRa

It's not that difficult to get down if you practice.... Eventually it becomes instinct and no harder than just driving normally.

I can see how it would be hard to master every downshift in a race type scenario where you are constantly changing gear.

But when you are just slowing to a stop, or for a corner, its nothing to just brake, clutch, blip, shift, clutch out.

How is rev-matching harder on your clutch and synchros then downshifting with no blip, and letting your clutch/tranny cause the rpms to rise???

If you clutch out, and your rpms dont have to move, there's no wear happening.

If you clutch out and your engine climbs 1500rpm to match your road speed, well, save up for a clutch.

UnkleRaRa

Being in the right gear at the right time can definitely save your bacon!!

Shanedude

You will get the hang of it don't worry. Don't bother downshifting into 1st it's pretty useless. Use your handbrake every now and than to make sure it doesn't seize. Brakes are still a lot cheaper than a clutch. A clutch is pretty expensive job unless you're doing it yourself.

UnkleRaRa

^This

Downshifting to first is pointless. You have to be going too slow to get it into gear. At that point just clutch in and brake. You wont wear your pads down too much braking at 10mph lol.

tuned08ss

I've had a new trans and clutch put in. Still would rather buy a brand new set of brembos than ever replace this "rare" trans again. Use your brakes.

Pasierbek

Lol I use my brakes, but I'll use my brakes liberally and I don't think I drive my car hard enough to blow a transmission.

tuned08ss

I don't drive too hard. The trans just had a bad input shaft bearing from the previous owner. With these 3.82's you just never know what to expect I guess.

exninja

iTrader: (1)

I agree that rev-matching is pretty simple with practice, but for me it's a cost-benefit question. How much wear on the brakes am I saving compared to the effort of rev-matching and the increased wear on the synchros and drivetrain when I don't match perfectly?

Two things: all the rev-matching in the world won't do anything for the synchros unless you double-clutch. I don't know how much a synchro wears each time you use it to downshift, but the fact that I can hear them wind (or whine) each time in this car just seems like they're not the best.

Also, heel-toe is not the same as rev-matching. I know most know that but some might not. Heel-toe is a technique used to rev-match, but you can rev-match without heel-toe. Heel-toe is like a multitask version of rev-match. Get rev-matching down first, then learn heel-toe. However, there really isn't a reason to heel-toe off the track.

My opinion is that practicing rev-matching would be great to learn how the transmission works. When you get that down you'll have a good feel of how fast the engine is spinning compared to the vehicle speed in each gear. Then you'll have a better idea of what gear you need to downshift to in a situation where it's necessary. But I don't see a case for downshifting to each light in order to slow down to avoid wear on the brakes. Admit it, you just want to do it because racecar

exninja

iTrader: (1)

Oh, I just remembered something. When I was 16 or 17 I drove an old S10 pickup. One day it was snowing and I was headed for a short, steep hill. Whilst going down the hill I decided to downshift to compliment my braking. I hadn't learned or thought about rev-matching. When I let out the clutch, instead of speeding up the engine to match the wheel speed it slowed down the wheels to match the engine speed because of the lack of traction. I ended up in the curb. Luckily the damage was minor.

UnkleRaRa

^

Ya it seems like rev-matching and heel-toeing got mashed up in this thread.

You can rev-match downshift without ever having to heel-toe.

Heel-toeing is basically just rev-matching while using the brakes simultaneously.

And ya if you downshift without rev-matching on a slippery road, it can be the same as just slamming on your brakes, lol.

UnkleRaRa

Here is a good explanation:

"When a car with a manual transmission is in motion with the clutch engaged, there is a mechanical connection between the engine and wheels which keep them in sync with each other. When shifting however, depressing the clutch is required. This breaks the mechanical connection between the engine and wheels, and the engine speed is no longer linked to that of the wheels. When upshifting, this is usually not a problem, as the tendency of the engine to reduce speed itself without gas will slow it to loosely match the lower speed of the higher gear. However, when downshifting, the engine needs to speed up to come to speed with the wheels. If the accelerator is not "blipped" (or briefly and quickly pressed to speed up the disengaged engine), the engine will have to take power from the wheels and momentum of the car to come to speed, which is often accompanied by a sudden deceleration of the vehicle due to the power suddenly going to the engine, often described as a "lurch" or "jolt". This sudden external acceleration of the engine through the transmission also causes increased wear on the mechanics of the car. Therefore, a staple of advanced or professional manual-transmission driving is the "rev match", or "throttle blip", in which the driver quickly brings the engine up to speed with the wheels by use of the throttle. As downshifting is often necessary when accelerating into or out of a curve or other slow-down, advanced techniques such as the "heel-toe method" are often required, in which the toe of the right foot presses on the brake pedal, while the heel of the same foot blips the throttle."

exninja

iTrader: (1)

Nice.

Devin86

When you get good at Rev matching it's really fun to drop a gear when sombody trys to fly by you and you Rev,WOT, gone lol I think 4k is the highest you should Rev match. When u get really good u can throw the break in the mix. You Rev match just a little higher then normal break then drop it in gear that took me awhile tho. 1 time I did it stock and did it 4th to 3rd at like 75-80 LOL But I beat the g35 trying to do a fly by so it was worth it

swanman35

Fundamental Skills of Heel-and-Toe: http://youtu.be/-ndly3FCcLA

watch the whole video, he shows how to heel Nd toe. But I find in our cars it's easier with the heel on the Brake.. but I don't heel and toe anyway. I don't track it so I have no need

UnkleRaRa

I think the term "heel-toe" can be misleading.

For me, its more like "two-toe".

Big toe side of my foot on the brake, and the baby toe side on the gas for blips, no heel involved for me.

But it all depends on how you learn, and which movements are easiest for you.

swanman35

Yeah, doesn't really matter how You do it. I can't do it very well in my lnf. I have big feet and for some reason it's just uncomfortable for me

Pasierbek

Can I just brake-clutch-shift-blip-clutch out to downshift? I can't seem to blip before the shift cause my RPM's are already too low after my shift. Is my way bad? Also another HUGE issue Im having I cant believe I forgot to mention. Its reverse gear. Lets say im reversing into my driveway and this thing is fairly steep. I keep having to ride the clutch in, clutch out, cause if I release at the catch point, Im flying towards my garage door in reverse. Thats scary. Any tips?

andrewcarr1993

iTrader: (5)

Either be faster or hold the e brake.

Not necessarily bad but not as advanced is all.

UnkleRaRa

Downshift:
When you rev-match downshift, it should all be happening at the same time, rather than steps split seconds apart from each other.

You want to blip the throttle and change gear at the same time, and just a split second after the clutch releases from its catch point.

You also want to release the clutch quickly, and while the RPMS match road speed, so they dont have to fall or climb. You almost "pop" the clutch once the rpms have risen to the point where engine and road speed are matching.

Explaining the process makes it sound longer than it is. In reality its split second maneuver.

And it definitely takes practice to get it down quickly.


Reverse:
You can ride the clutch safely if you keep the RPMS low.

Just Take off in reverse the same way you take off in first.

I reverse into my spot at work, and its a steep uphill as well.

I've got it down now so that I can just clutch out in reverse, give it gas to get the car rolling, then just clutch in and coast into my spot. But thats only because ive backed into it so many times im used to how much speed I need.