LNF Fuel Thread
12-08-2016, 11:52 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
LNF Fuel Thread
OK everyone I have been talking about a fuel thread and am finally getting around to it. So far I have found on full E85 running both the lobe and Opels can run safely around 400hp. With both the lobe and Opels on E47 500hp can be made.
My recommendation for fuel upgrades have changed in the last bit because of the E tunes I have done and the limits I have found. First upgrade would be the lobe. With the lobe you will be able to hit your commanded fuel pressure. 2nd I would do a 5th injector setup I do not wanna post which one I recommend but if you wanna know just PM me. Last are the Opels which if you wanna run 400hp or less do the Opels 2nd.
The issue with the Opels is they are too big for our HPFP even with the lobe. OK now I am talking about high HP cars here (7163 E47 @ 30psi) so what was happening here is the Opels are flowing more than the HPFP can keep up with so you will not actually hit commanded fuel pressure. In the end I believe Opels @ 15MPA will flow close to the same as stock injectors at a raised fuel pressure.
With both upgrades and a good 5th injector controller with a properly sized injector you can add just enough fuel to be able to keep the stress off of the DI system therefore commanded fuel pressure can be achieved. Running a 5th will lower IATs plus help clean the valves but you don't want to over do it and get too much fuel from the 5th and flow less fuel from the more efficient DI system.
I will have more to add as I get my car back together since I will be running the lobe and probably the Opels (may go stock haven't decided yet) plus 1000cc/min meth. I am going to test different ethanol percentages and will post my finding with and without the meth injection. The testing with be done on a 550hp setup.
I hope this helps with your fuel decisions and I will edit this post as I gain more information but this is what I have found out so far.
My recommendation for fuel upgrades have changed in the last bit because of the E tunes I have done and the limits I have found. First upgrade would be the lobe. With the lobe you will be able to hit your commanded fuel pressure. 2nd I would do a 5th injector setup I do not wanna post which one I recommend but if you wanna know just PM me. Last are the Opels which if you wanna run 400hp or less do the Opels 2nd.
The issue with the Opels is they are too big for our HPFP even with the lobe. OK now I am talking about high HP cars here (7163 E47 @ 30psi) so what was happening here is the Opels are flowing more than the HPFP can keep up with so you will not actually hit commanded fuel pressure. In the end I believe Opels @ 15MPA will flow close to the same as stock injectors at a raised fuel pressure.
With both upgrades and a good 5th injector controller with a properly sized injector you can add just enough fuel to be able to keep the stress off of the DI system therefore commanded fuel pressure can be achieved. Running a 5th will lower IATs plus help clean the valves but you don't want to over do it and get too much fuel from the 5th and flow less fuel from the more efficient DI system.
I will have more to add as I get my car back together since I will be running the lobe and probably the Opels (may go stock haven't decided yet) plus 1000cc/min meth. I am going to test different ethanol percentages and will post my finding with and without the meth injection. The testing with be done on a 550hp setup.
I hope this helps with your fuel decisions and I will edit this post as I gain more information but this is what I have found out so far.
12-09-2016, 06:09 AM
#2
Nice, thanks for doing this. I was thinking that ZZP was working on a upgrade for awhile on the hpfp and since there hasn't been anymore said on it for quite some time I wonder if it didn't work out. I'm surprised that with the 13% +or- more flow of the Opels along with the bigger fuel lobe, that the Opels are too big?
12-09-2016, 07:10 AM
#3
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
Nice, thanks for doing this. I was thinking that ZZP was working on a upgrade for awhile on the hpfp and since there hasn't been anymore said on it for quite some time I wonder if it didn't work out. I'm surprised that with the 13% +or- more flow of the Opels along with the bigger fuel lobe, that the Opels are too big?
I mostly agree with KMO43's comments, but if someone if looking at running the 6758 just short of maxing the turbo out on e47 I would stick with the fuel lobe and Opels. Going larger turbo or wanting to run full e85 you certainly need the 5th injector.
I'm overall not a huge fan of the 5th injector because some setups don't work as well as they claim, short of having 4 widebands or egt gauges the verify fuel distribution there isn't a good way to test each system. I'm also fairly positive no one has done this or taken the time to work it out via computer modeling (not on Solidworks or CAD, I forget the software name but it will model near 2 million different particles in flight including surface interactions and more).
12-09-2016, 09:55 AM
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I stated that the pressure loss by going to the Opels will affect the flow so running stock injectors at raised pressure should offset the flow of the Opels being larger
12-09-2016, 10:20 AM
#6
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
I'll have to take a look at logs from Adrian's car pre and post Opels, but I dont recall pressure loss on the Opels (he isn't running a huge boost spike though).
12-09-2016, 10:34 AM
#7
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Also you have to remember at you altitude you will have different results. You guys need less fuel way up there
12-09-2016, 10:40 AM
#8
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
About 10% less, I factor that in. That's why I said I haven't sat down and calculated the mass flow at a given opening, or a back calc on what the demand would be for a given rpm range. If I'm motivated enough I'll build a spread sheet sometime this winter for pressure flow differences.
12-09-2016, 10:53 AM
#9
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Well according to ZZP's site the stocks flow 120# and the Opels 135# @ 10mpa. From my research the Opels will hit a rail pressure around 15mpa which is 165#. Stock injectors @ 18mpa will flow 161#. These numbers are both based on having the lobe installed as well to be able to hit commanded fuel rail pressure.
This was the first time I've done the calculations between the injectors but it reflects the info I have seen in recent logs
This was the first time I've done the calculations between the injectors but it reflects the info I have seen in recent logs
12-09-2016, 11:34 AM
#10
5th injector has always kind of scared me away. I don't like the thought of something that you are counting on to be there, to make sure you don't go lean and cook the motor, operating at the flow it's supposed to without having a great way of knowing what it's doing. Just Knowing that it's on or off isn't good enough for me, as critical as your afr is in these turbo motors. It surprises me that some are OCD about monitoring fueling and afr through the computer, but don't have much feedback on how well the 5th injector is doing. Maybe I'm uneducated or just to picky.
12-09-2016, 03:11 PM
#11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
On my car I have seen it go fairly lean with no knock. With enough ethanol not getting the exact amount in each cyl probably won't hurt. I have ran a 28psi on 32psi by accident also with no knock but I do run a really pure ethanol mixture. The only way I see a 5th being an issue if spraying a tiny amount that can't get distributed properly or the 5th actually failing. I also think where you spray matters too. You'd want a nice clean spray from the injector.
I probably wont get into any crazy fuel issues even at a high HP level because I will only run E54 max and already spray 1000cc meth. If I do need more I will add a bigger meth nozzle and spray pure meth to help out. Which is basically a 5th just in the coldpipe
I probably wont get into any crazy fuel issues even at a high HP level because I will only run E54 max and already spray 1000cc meth. If I do need more I will add a bigger meth nozzle and spray pure meth to help out. Which is basically a 5th just in the coldpipe
12-10-2016, 03:20 AM
#13
Senior Member
Thread Starter
12-10-2016, 03:23 AM
#14
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I wanna answer everything I can if u want hit me up in a PM I just wanna help out I don't care who tuned who
12-10-2016, 03:41 AM
#15
im not an lnf guy, 0 experience with them, but i find this thread interesting.
5th injector setups are sort of a fickle thing imo. the biggest is fuel distribution. myself id rather put an injector in each runner and run a second rail. looking at the lnf manifold im not a big fan of where people put the 5th injector, it doesnt look like it would have even distribution. for distribution i would rather put a 5th injector in the charge pipe, however fuel pooling when you release the throttle could become an issue. i know people that have done direct port meth injection running 100% methanol to increase fueling, and they have had good results, but thats on gas, not ethanol.
thinking outside the box, has anyone thought of running a larger, or a second high pressure fuel pump? im thinking of the common rail diesel aftermarket here, they often add a second cp3 pump driven off the serpentine belt. im not sure about the feasability of adding a second pump, but maybe thats an option.
5th injector setups are sort of a fickle thing imo. the biggest is fuel distribution. myself id rather put an injector in each runner and run a second rail. looking at the lnf manifold im not a big fan of where people put the 5th injector, it doesnt look like it would have even distribution. for distribution i would rather put a 5th injector in the charge pipe, however fuel pooling when you release the throttle could become an issue. i know people that have done direct port meth injection running 100% methanol to increase fueling, and they have had good results, but thats on gas, not ethanol.
thinking outside the box, has anyone thought of running a larger, or a second high pressure fuel pump? im thinking of the common rail diesel aftermarket here, they often add a second cp3 pump driven off the serpentine belt. im not sure about the feasability of adding a second pump, but maybe thats an option.
12-10-2016, 05:37 AM
#16
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I'm also not a big fan of the "common " 5th injector. But with that being said you need to own an LNF to honestly know what it's like to run one! I love my car I love my engine and I dare anyone to try and beat it even with our poorly flowing fuel system
Last edited by KMO43; 12-14-2016 at 02:41 AM.
12-10-2016, 08:46 AM
#17
Ill chime in a bit. Let me first of all say that i am no tuner. Even though i have enough knowledge to tune my personal car there are guys that blow me away as far as tuning goes but i will share little tidly bits i have found.
The fifth injector is really imho a band aid to a problem. It has been for years on any platform its been introduced on. However it does have a few pros in the case of the DI cars. The issues as stated, is the fact you cannot control the distribution of fuel in anyway shape or form. Theres one design i prefer however it reguires more work and money then most people are willing to spend and IS NOT a easy bolt in solution. However I find this solution is A - the best way to control fuel atomization into the plenum area, B- the best way to control distribution(no real data on this) and C - Best way to prevent puddling of fuel. Putting it in the charge pipe will not work to well. theres no data to get a proper angle and when the throttle blades shut as sharkey stated the possibility of puddling will occur. Also an injector has a lot larger/denser spray window then a meth nozzle. Sticking an injector in a 2.5" to me will just spray it into the pipe wall and wont be taken away fast enough into the manifold. The pros to the 5th injector setup, is even with the more expensive setups like i and a few others do its still the most cost effective and requires the least amount of work to make work. Also it helps clean the valves even though it WILL NOT keep them 100% clean. However it keeps them clean enough to not have to clean your valves as often(i clean mine every 30k. with the 5th injectors i would say in some cases 50-55k? Im very ocd about this and its probably overkill but it doesnt hurt anyone. One thing i have noticed is with certain 5th injector setups, number 1 seems to get the most fuel. This is based off of a visual(with the exhaust manifold off) and thermo egt reading on and off track.
IMHO running 4 injectors across the board is the best way to do it. HOWEVER it is by far the most expensive way and for most people this isnt feesable. It requires a lot of work and materials and good tuning. I have done 2 of these setups with split second controllers and sheet metal intakes. They require a pretty aggressive angle to get the full spray pattern into the head as well.
The fuel lobe cams are a MUST. Luckily ZZP got the whole rotating reluctor wheel issue fixed. I Had about 4 or 5 cams on customers cars have it happen but after talking with matt m over there they took care of me.
There really isn't a way to run a 2nd hpfp. At least our factory style one(casted into the head and driven by the cam) However a belt driven pump is always a possibility. However that would likely require someone to purchase a fluidyne or ATI pulley and additional pulley setup and then engineer a mounting solution.
The reality here is ANYTHING is a possibility. The downside is cobalt owners want cheap solutions for the most part. While you have a few guys that will drop money most wont and for a lot of manufacturers that's just not worth building parts for. To really see what goes on inside manifolds during fuel atomization you need CFD or computational fluid dynamic software. Solid works has a cheaper version of it but even then from what i hear from my engineers at work its very inaccurate and the companies that produce good cfd programs are not affordable for an average person.
The fifth injector is really imho a band aid to a problem. It has been for years on any platform its been introduced on. However it does have a few pros in the case of the DI cars. The issues as stated, is the fact you cannot control the distribution of fuel in anyway shape or form. Theres one design i prefer however it reguires more work and money then most people are willing to spend and IS NOT a easy bolt in solution. However I find this solution is A - the best way to control fuel atomization into the plenum area, B- the best way to control distribution(no real data on this) and C - Best way to prevent puddling of fuel. Putting it in the charge pipe will not work to well. theres no data to get a proper angle and when the throttle blades shut as sharkey stated the possibility of puddling will occur. Also an injector has a lot larger/denser spray window then a meth nozzle. Sticking an injector in a 2.5" to me will just spray it into the pipe wall and wont be taken away fast enough into the manifold. The pros to the 5th injector setup, is even with the more expensive setups like i and a few others do its still the most cost effective and requires the least amount of work to make work. Also it helps clean the valves even though it WILL NOT keep them 100% clean. However it keeps them clean enough to not have to clean your valves as often(i clean mine every 30k. with the 5th injectors i would say in some cases 50-55k? Im very ocd about this and its probably overkill but it doesnt hurt anyone. One thing i have noticed is with certain 5th injector setups, number 1 seems to get the most fuel. This is based off of a visual(with the exhaust manifold off) and thermo egt reading on and off track.
IMHO running 4 injectors across the board is the best way to do it. HOWEVER it is by far the most expensive way and for most people this isnt feesable. It requires a lot of work and materials and good tuning. I have done 2 of these setups with split second controllers and sheet metal intakes. They require a pretty aggressive angle to get the full spray pattern into the head as well.
The fuel lobe cams are a MUST. Luckily ZZP got the whole rotating reluctor wheel issue fixed. I Had about 4 or 5 cams on customers cars have it happen but after talking with matt m over there they took care of me.
There really isn't a way to run a 2nd hpfp. At least our factory style one(casted into the head and driven by the cam) However a belt driven pump is always a possibility. However that would likely require someone to purchase a fluidyne or ATI pulley and additional pulley setup and then engineer a mounting solution.
The reality here is ANYTHING is a possibility. The downside is cobalt owners want cheap solutions for the most part. While you have a few guys that will drop money most wont and for a lot of manufacturers that's just not worth building parts for. To really see what goes on inside manifolds during fuel atomization you need CFD or computational fluid dynamic software. Solid works has a cheaper version of it but even then from what i hear from my engineers at work its very inaccurate and the companies that produce good cfd programs are not affordable for an average person.
12-10-2016, 03:27 PM
#22
A lot of newer cars are running direct injection and port injection, if there was a set up like this, possibly with a TTR manifold where it would be very easy to tap injectors into each runner for the manifold, possibly meth as well. Not too sure though how that would work. A 2nd fuel pump for injectors would be something to figure out.
12-11-2016, 02:11 AM
#23
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Planning to go zfr 7163 at some point so just trying to take everything in. Free bump
12-11-2016, 07:45 AM
#24
Shael Rosen (probably spelled it wrong) hhr has a ttr manifold on it that has meth nozzles tapped into each port and it looks pretty slick. Don't know how well it works.
Like omiotec said-having one built is an option. Would sure love for ZZP to give us some info on how they are doing in testing the upgraded hpfp. I know the speed 3 guys have to modify theirs just to go fbo and tune. Shame no one makes a kit to do ours and the only option for a bandaid is bigger cam fuel lobe. And that only gets you so far.
Like omiotec said-having one built is an option. Would sure love for ZZP to give us some info on how they are doing in testing the upgraded hpfp. I know the speed 3 guys have to modify theirs just to go fbo and tune. Shame no one makes a kit to do ours and the only option for a bandaid is bigger cam fuel lobe. And that only gets you so far.
12-11-2016, 09:21 PM
#25
DI is great technology... till this happens lol. I heard sis gen camaro has same issue with fuel