hey guys. so i dynoed my car finally and made 460whp. im very happy with the car and it made more or less the exact power i was expecting given my setup. my question is... whats next??

i was thinking of throwing in some cams, springs and all that good stuff with neutral balance shafts and an ati damper so i can rev higher and wanted to know what type of gains i could expect from doing so from what you guys have seen?

my setup is zfr7163 and full E85. with my current tune im reving to 6800. all stock internals. where can/should i rev to once i put in the cams and stuff?

i was reading around on here and saw something about reving passed 74 or 75 is useless on an LNF because of the cam phasers or something along those lines but im not sure if that was referring to stock cams/springs or if that was the case with upgraded cams and stuff also. is that still true and is there a mod/fix i can do? my ultimate goal is to break the 500whp mark and rev to 8K.

another question is, WHAT cams? i was thinking the ZZP Z2's but im definitely willing to go much more aggressive if those wont be enough for my end goal. maybe a stage 3?

 

Nice. Good numbers. Stock trans? and what clutch are you using? Also what are you using to run full e85 (upgraded HPFP, fuel cams larger injectors)? I don't know much about the neutral balance shafts or cams and things.

 

LSJ 4.05 trans, gmpp clutch, opel injectors and zzp hpfp

 

and you run full E all the time? and do you test it everytime you fill up? We only have 2 places that have e85 and both are on the Naval bases local to me, so i have access to them and I would think the supply come from the same place, so I would imagine both stations are roughly the e content. I know you guy were talking about the e content readers in the other thread.

 

yep! full E all the time. daily driven. i test every now and then if its been awhile or if i ever go to a gas station ive never been to. i also have the zeitronix eca-2 installed so it lets me know the current content in the car (highly recommended). the gas stations i go to are very very consistent and good quality. used to run E47 on the stock turbo and would test each and every single time i would fill up so i got to see its consistency.

 

bump for any info on the cams

 

I wish I could remember because it's been awhile but I think if you are running everything through the stock computer you will have cam phase limits. Like you say I believe it's past 7,200. There has to be some posts on here about it.

 

I'm running the ZZP Stage 3 cams with their 82# valve springs and neutral balance shafts. I believe that package should be good to 8500 rpms. I've only gone to 82-8300 since that's all I need at the road track to stay in 4th on the straight (~140mph). I'm running the 4.45 trans so higher revs at that speed than yours. I'm not sure what the numbers are the the Stage 2 cams...

 

do you drive the car on the street or is it just a track car? hows the driveability with the stage 3s? debating between those and the stage 2s. i want whichever would hit the 500 mark easier with the 7163.

 

bump for info

still debating on the stage 2 or 3s. whats the efficiency range of the 7163 anyways? does it die off at/by 8K? is it even worth reving it that high if it does indeed peak before?

what kind of general ballpark hp gains have you guys seen from going nbs and cams? 30? 40?

 

Neutral balance shafts are like a <10hp gain, iirc? I think that's what was claimed in the build book, at least.

They're not worth it on their own, but if you're going to be tearing into the timing size anyway to do cams, they can be worthwhile, I suppose. I can't remember if they can be changed with the engine in the car though - I'm sure someone else can chime in on that. I guess, if you're crafty enough, you should be able to loosen the mounts and lower the engine enough to change them.

I have no input on the cams - I haven't run any of them. There are potential issues associated with high revving with upgraded valve springs and cams - (MrBelvedere addressed this in a thread a long while back). Essentially amounts to our lash adjusters sucking. BUT, at these power levels, everything is a risk that you should be prepared for. Like the transmission.

Here's the compressor map for the EFR7163: http://www.turbos.borgwarner.com/fil...R%207163-F.pdf - I don't think you have anything to worry about with it.

 

yeah i believe i have to drop the engine a bit to take the balance shafts out. no worries. these will be going in along with cams and a new damper so definitely not just on their own. just trying to break that 500 mark!

 

FYI, stage 3 cams are not readily available. ZZP only had like 5 or 6 sets made back in the day. I have one of them. I've heard anecdotally of people that ordered straight from COMP Cams but I'm not sure if that is still an option. As far as driveability, there is no real noticeable difference. Mine had some lope early on using just ZZP's tune tables but ECaulk refined the tune and even that is gone now. Main reason I got the Stage 3's was so I could rev over 8K which saved me a shift into 5th at the end of the straight at the circuit. I do not daily drive mine.
As for neutral balance shafts, it is my understanding that their main function is to prevent excessive vibrations at higher RPMS (7K+). I seriously doubt whether they provide any power gains. I got mine from ZZP. Hope that helps!

 

thanks for that! so yeah im currently in talks with zzp about which of the cams to run for my setup. they have a stage 3 for me if i decide on it over the stage 2. stage 3 lobes are timed different and would mainly be for better timing at high rpm (7500+) according to them. also said the 7163 is maxed out before 75 so its not worth reving it to 8k anyways. better to use the stage 3s if i were running a S257 or something. power up to 75 is identicle on both cams.

 

I seem to recall that they eliminate vibrations lower in the RPM band, and that it's recommend to change them if you'll be revving high into the RPM band.

And the gains are from having to spin less mass... which makes me think that maybe the gain isn't with the NBS, but with the delete.

I'll have to check my old books real quick to verify that though.

EDIT: https://zzperformance.com/blogs/impo...balance-shafts


They claim their NBS weigh less than stock too, which makes a big difference when spinning the engine at 8k rpm.

For peak power, that'd be true. But if your power/torque peaks at 7500, how far does it drop up to 8k? And how much power/torque are you making right after shifting at each of those points? Running it out to 8k, even with the turbo running out of breath, will likely be a faster car than just shifting at 7500. You'll likely have a higher average torque over the rpm range that your running.

​​​​​​​Do you have the dyno chart?

 

Yeah that's what I said (or meant, at least) NBS prevent vibrations at higher revs. Stock balance shafts cancel out vibrations in lower revs. And I get the rotating mass difference. Just not sure how much difference it makes. My dyno numbers didn't change massively after upgrading to my ported Stage 3 head, although we weren't necessarily trying to hit higher numbers, mostly optimizing the balance between timing and limiting heat generation...

 

Gotcha. I totally missed the "neutral" part in your original post. Though you were saying the OE balance shafts cancelled out vibrations at High RPM.