ProjectScarab

I have the blessing of the Mods to start a new thread here in order to discuss theories on whether or not ZZP's claims for HP gains on their ported head/stage1 cams make any sense to the educated consumer.

My thoughts are this...

Why haven't they posted dyno graphs of before and after pulls on this product? If we want to make an informed decision on how they perform we can't do that with just relying on them saying "it just does". Don't tell me that these exist on this site. They don't.

The graph Matt posted in support of these claims in not a back to back test but, in fact, a comparison of pump gas to E85 on their S1 cams. They want to continue to refer to this graph as support of their claims (rediculous) but I have further issues. The power curve shows clearly that power is dropping from 5300rpm on. If we are to take this as evidence of the tune we would receive when purchasing the combo, why is there a need for 78# valvesprings? This graph does not show that there is any further power potential revving the motor beyond the factory redline. I would hope that the tune would actually show a climbing power curve but in actuality, @28 psi they show peak power even earlier than 5300rpm.

Their product ad states that an unmodified engine and turbo can stand to gain 100 HP (mostly through tuning though) but with increased modifications, the performance gain would be less. What I'd like to know is how much of the power gain is a result of the ported heads, how much is a result of the cams, and how much is in the tune. If any of these products are to be sold separately in the future it would be nice to know this.

The biggest problem I have with all of their claims is that we're not allowed to see the power curve ahead of time. Anyone that wants to buy them blind is asking for trouble IMO, especially if they have a specific need (low to mid for autox versus high for drag guys). How do you know what to expect? If all the power claims are made at 7500rpm how does it help the guys looking for more power down low?

Last of all, I'd like this to be a place where you can post your results. If you did buy the package and install it, how well did it perform? Please provide the graphs to support the results though. If we can't get the results from the vendor perhaps the customers would be willing to actually show how well/bad they did. I'd also like to know how easy it was to tune the package on your combo. Was the "mail order" tune a help or did it make things more complicated.

Thanks everyone for your undying support. If I think of anything else I'll continue to add to it.

joeyjetta46

i get where ur going with this.... but word of advice, people are gonna start bashing, and i think this thread will get locked.. but it is good to know more information... but from what i can see i think everything they have made for their car is specifically made for drag..i havent seen anything they posted for auto-x...im not here to bash im just stating what i have researched in the past. but its good to know even though auto-x takes more abuse then drag

ProjectScarab

You're right on all points. That's why I questioned the use of a dyno graph with peak power being made down low. It doesn't add up.

BYT*SS*TURBO

iTrader: (6)

Did you get a Before and After Dyno with your PNP'd Head? Ill bet no... Give it up.

Should I make a "debunking Scab's 370whp big turbo build" thread. Try calling the Pot Black just a lil more

ProjectScarab

Glad to see you joined the party over here BYT but are you really trying to take this off topic already? My offer to "like" the FB page is still on the table. I'd welcome anything you have to say about it over there. You seem knowledgeable and might actually turn out to be a positive contributor.

BTW, I love all the photos you post up. Those are pretty funny so keep them coming.

BYT*SS*TURBO

iTrader: (6)

Im just pointing out that you are demanding what you never received yourself, yet bought anyway. And you paid a shop to deliver a fully built car that outputs less then stock turbo cars. Instead of spending time figuring your own car out you are wasting time knocking the 1 vendor making parts that actually perform. Valid point.

400whp on stock turbo. Yea... /thread.


Edit:
Hope you like my pics, enjoy the Blades build with the smaller turbo at less boost making 418whp.... lol.

ProjectScarab

Actually...You don't know what I asked for in advance because you weren't there. You don't know what discussions were had because.....wait for it.....you weren't there. So how it's a valid point is beyond me.

I have been. It's been great to see the progress being made. Keep up the good work.

BYT*SS*TURBO

iTrader: (6)

So Im asking then, did they provide you with a before and after graph showing you it will make a gain? With all the talk of everyone trying to PNP the head I would think since SMG is a vendor here they would post that they figured it out..

ProjectScarab

When you're done editing the post just let me know.

BLAZIN07SS

iTrader: (7)

lol sub'd

ProjectScarab

Maybe you're actually onto something. If SMG was the vendor that ported the head, and was selling it on this forum, I'm sure that they would post up the results. Seeing that they haven't done that, and they're not selling it on this forum, I don't see why they have to. Not quite the same thing as ZZP now is it?

ProjectScarab

Next!

BYT*SS*TURBO

iTrader: (6)

Just going by what you said in the thread that was deleted. Im not trying to knock SMG, just trying to point out how you are making a stink over what you didn't receive yourself.

Matt M

If you read where I posted that we reached 500 ft lbs of torque and 400whp, I think it's safe to say that it makes power down low. Or you can pretend to be ignorant and post that it might not make power till 7500 RPM. It's your choice, I guess.

ProjectScarab

It's not even relevant to any point you're trying to make. All you're doing is helping to reinforce my point actually. If a vendor sells a product on this site they should show proof of the performance claims. In this case you're telling me what some company that isn't selling anything on CSS.net should do. If they do, you can be the first to jump on that bandwagon.

If I don't beat you to it.

ProjectScarab

Welcome to my thread Matt! Love to have you aboard. I see that you still can't answer any of my questions though. Glad to see that nothing has changed. Perhaps you can just answer the questions/concerns and be done with it? I am ignorant of the facts because they haven't been shown. When that happens what is one to do but speculate? It's only natural...

Now let's see if we can do this a bit more civilly this time, shall we?

Zooomer

iTrader: (1)

You know what to expect by talking to ZZP about your build and your needs before the purchase.
You're post illustrates a great point of why we don't always post specific numbers and sometimes discuss ranges. Consumers, such as yourself, are sometimes ignorant to how changing parts can affect their car and the HP. This is why we limit the amount of information given to avoid confusing people and work with people on their individual cars.

Adding this kit to your stock turbo LNF will have quite a different affect than adding it to one with an upgraded turbo. Peak power on a stock turbo will be made earlier and power will fall off some as rpm climbs. This is due to the stock turbo not being able to supply consistant boost as the engine is injesting more at higher rpms. So if you have say 28psi on boost hit, it may fall down to 18. This of course will depend on how far you rev it. Power will stay the same, airflow will stay the same but boost will drop as rpm climbs.

With an upgraded turbo you can keep boost the same as the turbo can keep up with the motor. This means power is going to climb to the end of the pull (at least with our builds). So how much power will you make? Well, depends on how high you rev it. The higher you go, the more power you will most likely make over the old build. In addition power at higher rpms will be much higher than previous even if peak power is the same. We run into this a lot with 3800s where two cars will have similar HP but one will be much faster due to holding the power longer. How to you put that into numbers for a customer? You can't on a web site very easy but explaining it to somone based on their personal car can be done.

BYT*SS*TURBO

iTrader: (6)

So you will stop insulting people then? Everyone else was talking like normal people...

Matt M

You have to speculate that the power might not come in till 7500 rom when the torque is 500 and the hp is 400? I guess you know less about cars than you would like us to believe then. In this case, you are exactly the type of customer that Zoom mentioned that doesn't know what to do with HP numbers or what to expect on a different build using some of the same components, but not others. It is for this reason that we refuse to provide you with exact numbers. You will certainly mis-use them in one way or another and false information will spread based on your negligence.

ProjectScarab

Thanks Zoomer. This material can be very educating for some. Now perhaps you could post examples so that these same people could see visually how this translates? An A-B on a stock motor would be fantastic since that is the easiest variable to control. I agree that one cannot predict the outcome of someone else's build when one doesn't know all the variables involved. An education on those variables would be of considerable importance in determining the final outcome.

ProjectScarab

And the reason for not giving them to others is???? Just trying to get some perspective here.

ProjectScarab

Sorry to be a buzzkill but I'm confused as to what I possibly could have said that was insulting. I liked your funny pictures. I appreciate the efforts made in the Blades build. I've thanked Zoomer for providing more insight. I've asked Matt to be civil.

Zooomer

iTrader: (1)

AS explained many times, the question has too many variables. The odds of someone completely stock buying this package are slim so doing a stock A/B doesn't make much sense.

A great example would be walking into a performance shop and asking how much power race gas gives. Then you getting angry at the guy for not giving you a specific number. As he begins to explain different builds, tuning, compression, etc. you interrupt him and say 'can't you just give me a number?' and that's what you're trying to do here Scarab. Luckily we're not selling this kit to you so we don' thave to cater to your requests. If we were I would speak to you directly. From what i've seen I'd be confortable saying: "Bring your car here and we'll easily gain 100 HP with this combo" But I wouldn't say that to someone else with a different build.

ProjectScarab

Because it gives a baseline of what can be achieved on just a stock platform. What if someone was considering a turbo upgrade and thought this might be a better way to go and save some cash? Knowing that they could build off of it in the future, at least they have a starting point. Is that really an unreasonable request?

CudaJoe

iTrader: (1)

SO from what I understand. Scarab is trying to get ZZP to waste time and money to put this kit they devised onto a stock turbo cobalt to see what kinda power it puts down on a dyno. ZZP says depends on the build of the car as to what kinda power gets put down.

Its obvious to me and im very certain everyone else that modding the cams will gain you more power as the rpms climb.... however!, the turbo runs out of air and cant keep up. Therefore, the gains are unknown and pointless unless you have a larger turbo that can keep up with the engine.

Scarab, become there customer, convert your car to stock and tell us your gains.