My ZFR review
04-08-2014, 01:16 PM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
My ZFR review and road to choosing a turbo, and other stuff
This is my experience with choosing a new turbo for my 08 SS/TC, your experience may differ...... These are my opinions, some are supported by other threads found on this forum through testing and dyno sessions. It took me about a year of deciding to finally pull the trigger on it.
So here is my honest review of the ZZP EFR 6758 along with a bunch of other stuff I have done to my car, and what choices I made on the road to choosing a bigger turbo for my 08 SS/TC:
The Hahn experience S20G:
I was shooting for the ever so popular 400whp/400wtq. I was between the Hahn s20g, BNR 2871, and the ZFR. After doing so much research and reading on here about each of them, I was mostly sold on the ZFR, minus some issues with durability. The s20g was a big contender for me. I had a 20g on my wrx and loved it, but after reading James' thread about the power potential, it had the power, and the spool i was after, but there was issues with surging on spool. It was discussed that it could've been the turbine housing was not matched correctly for the turbo, airflow issues, twin scroll into single scroll, and the adapter hahn uses to mate the T3 to the LNF manifold. The surging scared me away from this, along with the COMPLETE LACK of Hahn customer service. James (CCSS3) did mention that he modified the manifold to turbo adapter and it got rid of some surging but had to drop boost at a certain rpm a few psi to get the surging under control. Thats a no go for me. We also agreed that changing the manifold to something like a hahn manifold or zzp manifold with the T3 outlet would most likely help the issue the best. But by then, why buy a turbo kit from hahn at that point for $1200 and not use the adapters, and a turbo manifold is ~$300 plus a Tial EWG for ~$250, you could almost afford an EFR turbo at that point.
Read more about the s20g surging issue here:https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/08-1...80/index3.html
The Hahn gt3076r:
I was also wanting the Hahn 3076r turbo kit, which would've been probably my favorite choice. But...... COMPLETE LACK OF customer service on Hahn, never got any call backs, no emails, and even my buddy who is a dealer for many of the vendors couldn't even get a hold of them for me. Disappointing to say the least. You can find some old videos of this kit on youtube, but thats all you'll find. I'm not sure why this didn't take off more than it did, I would've definitely bought it if it was the right price because there is no other company currently offering a bolt on gt3076r solution.
The BNR2871:
The BNR2871 was then in my scopes. Makes good power, price was decent, spool was good, and it was a proven reliable turbo, and talking to Bryan, who is a great guy, really gave me confidence in a purchase. Looking then into dyno sheets and youtube videos, it makes around the power i wanted but would be pretty maxed out and have to run a higher boost pressure than i wanted to run along with having to run a new BPV setup. It was still considered, but lost in the end. I also asked about any wheel upgrades he could offer over the current 2871 to make a bit more power, he simply stated that the turbine was maxed out and he was surprised it actually flowed what it did to get to 400whp lol. Great turbo for those only looking to make 400whp and thats it, and want rock solid reliability. Overall a great turbo and i highly recommend it.
The PWerks WR-3:
I was closely looking at this turbo for a bit, but it was difficult to come by reviews because only one person on here had it on his car (KMO43). The older "beta" version based off of a precision brand turbo is the one i would go after versus the newer EFR6758 based one solely because the ZFR is the same basically for much cheaper, only difference being in the turbine housings. The WR-3 spools slower than the ZFR, IMO mostly caused by the difference in turbine housings from Pwerks and ZZP. Dave mentioned around 3200-3500 rpms with good tuning like retarded timing and leaning it out on spool. Realistically i think it was more like 3800-4000 rpms though. But..... the older beta version made some great numbers on 93 octane making 400whp without pushing it to its limits which would be hard to do on the EFR6758 without some E85. I liked the turbo and Dave is great to deal with and guess what...... they actually email you back pretty quickly....... This would be another highly recommended turbo if its the beta version using the precision turbo base.
The EFR6758 ZFR:
Then there was the ZFR. Rated by ZZP at 49lbs/min and BW at 53lb/min. 54mm turbo, a proven performer, just about everyone on here raves about it. Looking at dyno sheets and videos kinda sold me on it. Especially the one video on youtube where a cobalt (Fastgti69) is racing the C6 corvette. The balt was on E47 and 24 psi tuned by James (CCSS3), pretty much had exaclty the same mods as i did, and totally walks the vette. I liked the fact i didn't need to buy or modify my charge pipes, and it was an all inclusive bolt on turbo that has un-heard of response time and was cheaper than the WR3 turbo which is based on the same EFR6758 platform. SOLD....... There are tons of videos on youtube of this turbo on cobalts, another good video of this turbo is called "TX2k13 cobalt doing work"
ZZP did however forget to include any brackets, spacers, and bolts in my intercooler package lol, but they next day aired the stuff with saturday delivery, so they did good on that.
Personal experiences ZFR and ZZP intercooler:
I've had the ZFR on my car (at 110K miles now) for about 3,000 miles, and its a completely different car to me than the stock turbo on E47 which broke my LNF tranny 3rd gear. I'm still very happy with my choice to get the ZFR, its not maxed out yet and its doing well on my tuning with 25-26 psi on E47, the KY stage 3 is holding the power and the LSJ 4.05 LSD is doing great. My driving habits are mostly driving to work 25 miles each way in Houston traffic, I usually just mind my own business and drive normally, my car is pretty quiet, so everyone thinks its a stock cobalt lol. The ZZP increased clearance intercooler is also awesome. If i would've had the normal sized one, it would have scrapes all on the bottom with the inclines around Houston. Performance wise, its doing great in our 90* heat so far, does a great job of keeping the IAT's in check, usually right around ambient temperature or less when moving. IAT's don't climb more than 10-15* after a loooooong pull at 25-26 psi, and thats a reading taken before even the alky/water is sprayed into the charge pipes. Like I said, totally different car now, and I'm very happy with the ZFR, perfect turbo IMHO. You really don't need anymore power for the street and its very responsive on/off throttle.
Tuning:
Tuning was pretty easy on the ZFR with HP tuners. I made my own boost ramp based on suggestions by other tuners of when full boost should come in to help the tranny. Mine fully spools by 3500 rpms smoothly (not like stock where it slaps you with a bunch of torque and dies off) to 21-22 psi until 4500 rpms, then ramps to 25-26 psi by 4800 rpms then holds until redline. Timing is around 23* up top. Remember, just because it isn't fully spooled doesn't mean it isn't making power getting there.
LSJ 4.05 LSD tranny swap:
What a pain this was to do by myself on jackstands. As for the tranny, when my LNF tranny blew up 3rd gear on the stock turbo, I actually posted on facebook in a group called cobaltss gang, and within minutes i had offers of selling me LSJ 4.05 LSD trannies for good prices. I paid about $800 shipped for a used tranny, had no issues with it, its actually been doing great and holding up to the ZFR. For a cheap and easy tranny I recommend the LSJ 4.05 all the way, still must have a good tune with a small boost ramp though for insurance.
KY stage 3:
Great clutch that will hold power of the ZFR. I have about 5,000 miles on mine. Stock flywheel that i just scuffed up with some 80 grit, ONLY because there was no heat spots and it looked good. This was a risk, but it worked out fine, I needed the car up and running ASAP, otherwise i would've resurfaced it just to be safe. There is no chattering at all. Very very very different engagement than a stock clutch. Literally about an inch of pedal travel near the top of pedal travel is where it grabs. It can be kind of like an on/off switch until you get used to it. You can slip it a bit and it isn't that difficult to use if you are good at driving stick. The only thing i don't personally like it the small engagement travel, but other than that, Its good for street duty on a daily driver.
AEM alcohol/water injection:
I've used this system on every boosted car I've owned before I discovered E85 lol and even after to help chemically intercool. For the price, you get a progressive, boost referenced controller that you can adjust the start spraying psi and full spray psi. Mine is set to start at 10psi, then full by 20psi so its not spraying on light throttle driving around town. It does swing the lambda rich if its not tuned for, but how much depends also on what nozzle you use. I'm using the medium nozzle in the kit (550cc i think). You can use it without tuning to just suppress knock if you wanted with the small nozzle without making the ECU go nuts, but you would not get the full benefits out of it. Before i went E47, i could have about 18* max on the timing ramped in smoothly using a 50/50 water/denatured alcohol mix and 93 octane. Easy to tune for, great kit, and highly recommended if you do not have access to 93 octane or E85.
E47 mix fuel:
By far the best stock mod you can do. Switching from 93 octane to E47 is like night and day difference. I've been on it for 2 years now, my injectors were replaced with new ones when i bought the car so i believe i may have the better seals on there. Going from 18* on alky/water injection to E47 and 24* timing on the stock turbo and 24 psi is a huuuuuuuge difference in torque and power. It was enough to destroy my old tranny lol. Many people complain that they live 30 minutes away from an E85 station or they don't want to mix at the pump....... Thats ridiculous. I lived 45 minutes away from the nearest station in Ohio and made a trip once every 3 weeks with 4 five gallon containers and filled them up. Mixing 5 gallons 93 and 5 gallons E85 had so much power benefits I would drive 2 hours away if needed. Making two card swipes is not that hard guys. Tuning is essential, DO NOT just fill up on E85 and expect power. I needed about 20% more fuel injected in my tune and timing can be turned up a great amount. Fuel mileage went down about 1-2 mpg according to my math, perfectly acceptable to me for the power i was making WITH ZERO KNOCK AT ALL. Be sure to purchase an E85 tester from quickfuel to test your local ethanol content %, I do this each time i fill up as a precaution, but my local station is always at 85% ethanol. The tester is about $12 or so from summit or jegs.
Overall, kudos to ZZP for engineering some great products and keeping the modding cobalt community alive. Thanks for your past and continued efforts to make this car as fast or faster than supercars over 3x the value
Hope this helps some people on the fence about turbo choices and mod/swap reviews.
So here is my honest review of the ZZP EFR 6758 along with a bunch of other stuff I have done to my car, and what choices I made on the road to choosing a bigger turbo for my 08 SS/TC:
The Hahn experience S20G:
I was shooting for the ever so popular 400whp/400wtq. I was between the Hahn s20g, BNR 2871, and the ZFR. After doing so much research and reading on here about each of them, I was mostly sold on the ZFR, minus some issues with durability. The s20g was a big contender for me. I had a 20g on my wrx and loved it, but after reading James' thread about the power potential, it had the power, and the spool i was after, but there was issues with surging on spool. It was discussed that it could've been the turbine housing was not matched correctly for the turbo, airflow issues, twin scroll into single scroll, and the adapter hahn uses to mate the T3 to the LNF manifold. The surging scared me away from this, along with the COMPLETE LACK of Hahn customer service. James (CCSS3) did mention that he modified the manifold to turbo adapter and it got rid of some surging but had to drop boost at a certain rpm a few psi to get the surging under control. Thats a no go for me. We also agreed that changing the manifold to something like a hahn manifold or zzp manifold with the T3 outlet would most likely help the issue the best. But by then, why buy a turbo kit from hahn at that point for $1200 and not use the adapters, and a turbo manifold is ~$300 plus a Tial EWG for ~$250, you could almost afford an EFR turbo at that point.
Read more about the s20g surging issue here:https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/08-1...80/index3.html
The Hahn gt3076r:
I was also wanting the Hahn 3076r turbo kit, which would've been probably my favorite choice. But...... COMPLETE LACK OF customer service on Hahn, never got any call backs, no emails, and even my buddy who is a dealer for many of the vendors couldn't even get a hold of them for me. Disappointing to say the least. You can find some old videos of this kit on youtube, but thats all you'll find. I'm not sure why this didn't take off more than it did, I would've definitely bought it if it was the right price because there is no other company currently offering a bolt on gt3076r solution.
The BNR2871:
The BNR2871 was then in my scopes. Makes good power, price was decent, spool was good, and it was a proven reliable turbo, and talking to Bryan, who is a great guy, really gave me confidence in a purchase. Looking then into dyno sheets and youtube videos, it makes around the power i wanted but would be pretty maxed out and have to run a higher boost pressure than i wanted to run along with having to run a new BPV setup. It was still considered, but lost in the end. I also asked about any wheel upgrades he could offer over the current 2871 to make a bit more power, he simply stated that the turbine was maxed out and he was surprised it actually flowed what it did to get to 400whp lol. Great turbo for those only looking to make 400whp and thats it, and want rock solid reliability. Overall a great turbo and i highly recommend it.
The PWerks WR-3:
I was closely looking at this turbo for a bit, but it was difficult to come by reviews because only one person on here had it on his car (KMO43). The older "beta" version based off of a precision brand turbo is the one i would go after versus the newer EFR6758 based one solely because the ZFR is the same basically for much cheaper, only difference being in the turbine housings. The WR-3 spools slower than the ZFR, IMO mostly caused by the difference in turbine housings from Pwerks and ZZP. Dave mentioned around 3200-3500 rpms with good tuning like retarded timing and leaning it out on spool. Realistically i think it was more like 3800-4000 rpms though. But..... the older beta version made some great numbers on 93 octane making 400whp without pushing it to its limits which would be hard to do on the EFR6758 without some E85. I liked the turbo and Dave is great to deal with and guess what...... they actually email you back pretty quickly....... This would be another highly recommended turbo if its the beta version using the precision turbo base.
The EFR6758 ZFR:
Then there was the ZFR. Rated by ZZP at 49lbs/min and BW at 53lb/min. 54mm turbo, a proven performer, just about everyone on here raves about it. Looking at dyno sheets and videos kinda sold me on it. Especially the one video on youtube where a cobalt (Fastgti69) is racing the C6 corvette. The balt was on E47 and 24 psi tuned by James (CCSS3), pretty much had exaclty the same mods as i did, and totally walks the vette. I liked the fact i didn't need to buy or modify my charge pipes, and it was an all inclusive bolt on turbo that has un-heard of response time and was cheaper than the WR3 turbo which is based on the same EFR6758 platform. SOLD....... There are tons of videos on youtube of this turbo on cobalts, another good video of this turbo is called "TX2k13 cobalt doing work"
ZZP did however forget to include any brackets, spacers, and bolts in my intercooler package lol, but they next day aired the stuff with saturday delivery, so they did good on that.
Personal experiences ZFR and ZZP intercooler:
I've had the ZFR on my car (at 110K miles now) for about 3,000 miles, and its a completely different car to me than the stock turbo on E47 which broke my LNF tranny 3rd gear. I'm still very happy with my choice to get the ZFR, its not maxed out yet and its doing well on my tuning with 25-26 psi on E47, the KY stage 3 is holding the power and the LSJ 4.05 LSD is doing great. My driving habits are mostly driving to work 25 miles each way in Houston traffic, I usually just mind my own business and drive normally, my car is pretty quiet, so everyone thinks its a stock cobalt lol. The ZZP increased clearance intercooler is also awesome. If i would've had the normal sized one, it would have scrapes all on the bottom with the inclines around Houston. Performance wise, its doing great in our 90* heat so far, does a great job of keeping the IAT's in check, usually right around ambient temperature or less when moving. IAT's don't climb more than 10-15* after a loooooong pull at 25-26 psi, and thats a reading taken before even the alky/water is sprayed into the charge pipes. Like I said, totally different car now, and I'm very happy with the ZFR, perfect turbo IMHO. You really don't need anymore power for the street and its very responsive on/off throttle.
Tuning:
Tuning was pretty easy on the ZFR with HP tuners. I made my own boost ramp based on suggestions by other tuners of when full boost should come in to help the tranny. Mine fully spools by 3500 rpms smoothly (not like stock where it slaps you with a bunch of torque and dies off) to 21-22 psi until 4500 rpms, then ramps to 25-26 psi by 4800 rpms then holds until redline. Timing is around 23* up top. Remember, just because it isn't fully spooled doesn't mean it isn't making power getting there.
LSJ 4.05 LSD tranny swap:
What a pain this was to do by myself on jackstands. As for the tranny, when my LNF tranny blew up 3rd gear on the stock turbo, I actually posted on facebook in a group called cobaltss gang, and within minutes i had offers of selling me LSJ 4.05 LSD trannies for good prices. I paid about $800 shipped for a used tranny, had no issues with it, its actually been doing great and holding up to the ZFR. For a cheap and easy tranny I recommend the LSJ 4.05 all the way, still must have a good tune with a small boost ramp though for insurance.
KY stage 3:
Great clutch that will hold power of the ZFR. I have about 5,000 miles on mine. Stock flywheel that i just scuffed up with some 80 grit, ONLY because there was no heat spots and it looked good. This was a risk, but it worked out fine, I needed the car up and running ASAP, otherwise i would've resurfaced it just to be safe. There is no chattering at all. Very very very different engagement than a stock clutch. Literally about an inch of pedal travel near the top of pedal travel is where it grabs. It can be kind of like an on/off switch until you get used to it. You can slip it a bit and it isn't that difficult to use if you are good at driving stick. The only thing i don't personally like it the small engagement travel, but other than that, Its good for street duty on a daily driver.
AEM alcohol/water injection:
I've used this system on every boosted car I've owned before I discovered E85 lol and even after to help chemically intercool. For the price, you get a progressive, boost referenced controller that you can adjust the start spraying psi and full spray psi. Mine is set to start at 10psi, then full by 20psi so its not spraying on light throttle driving around town. It does swing the lambda rich if its not tuned for, but how much depends also on what nozzle you use. I'm using the medium nozzle in the kit (550cc i think). You can use it without tuning to just suppress knock if you wanted with the small nozzle without making the ECU go nuts, but you would not get the full benefits out of it. Before i went E47, i could have about 18* max on the timing ramped in smoothly using a 50/50 water/denatured alcohol mix and 93 octane. Easy to tune for, great kit, and highly recommended if you do not have access to 93 octane or E85.
E47 mix fuel:
By far the best stock mod you can do. Switching from 93 octane to E47 is like night and day difference. I've been on it for 2 years now, my injectors were replaced with new ones when i bought the car so i believe i may have the better seals on there. Going from 18* on alky/water injection to E47 and 24* timing on the stock turbo and 24 psi is a huuuuuuuge difference in torque and power. It was enough to destroy my old tranny lol. Many people complain that they live 30 minutes away from an E85 station or they don't want to mix at the pump....... Thats ridiculous. I lived 45 minutes away from the nearest station in Ohio and made a trip once every 3 weeks with 4 five gallon containers and filled them up. Mixing 5 gallons 93 and 5 gallons E85 had so much power benefits I would drive 2 hours away if needed. Making two card swipes is not that hard guys. Tuning is essential, DO NOT just fill up on E85 and expect power. I needed about 20% more fuel injected in my tune and timing can be turned up a great amount. Fuel mileage went down about 1-2 mpg according to my math, perfectly acceptable to me for the power i was making WITH ZERO KNOCK AT ALL. Be sure to purchase an E85 tester from quickfuel to test your local ethanol content %, I do this each time i fill up as a precaution, but my local station is always at 85% ethanol. The tester is about $12 or so from summit or jegs.
Overall, kudos to ZZP for engineering some great products and keeping the modding cobalt community alive. Thanks for your past and continued efforts to make this car as fast or faster than supercars over 3x the value
Hope this helps some people on the fence about turbo choices and mod/swap reviews.
Last edited by 08VRSS; 04-12-2014 at 08:43 PM.
04-08-2014, 09:41 PM
#4
Senior Member
Then there was the ZFR. A proven performer, just about everyone on here raves about it. Looking at dyno sheets and videos kinda sold me on it. Especially the one video on youtube where a cobalt is racing the C6 corvette. The balt was on E47 and 24 psi tuned by James, pretty much had exaclty the same mods as i did, and totally walks the vette. .
04-08-2014, 11:59 PM
#5
Junior Member
Thread Starter
No dyno yet, I'm actually working on buying a dyno for myself. With the fuel, timing and boost, I'd say I'm over 400/400. Haven't really had any races to compare to bc my car is very quiet, everyone thinks it's stock lol. Then if someone hints they want to play, the turbo spool scares them off. Soon as I get to a dyno or buy one for my business, I'll post a sheet.
And a huge thanks to James even though he's banned, he's helped me with some tuning advice. And thanks to fastgti69 for his videos.
And a huge thanks to James even though he's banned, he's helped me with some tuning advice. And thanks to fastgti69 for his videos.
04-09-2014, 12:27 AM
#6
Senior Member
Great review. I have a 4.05 lsd tranny waiting to go in. But yes I love this turbo, got 15k on it and its perfect for my goals. Lord voldemort hooked it up lol. I just love how it pulls to redline tho...gives me goosebumps. One of my first race with the turbo was my buddies c6 slp zl465 vette and i pulled him everytime on the roll. He was very impressed. I let him drive my car and he was raving about lol. I drove his vette too and man the sound and feel was intoxicating
04-09-2014, 07:36 AM
#7
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I always wondered what happened to the gt3076r turbo kits that a few vendors had developed back in the day. BTF was one of them, hahn was another. But BTF i guess fell off the face of the earth like dejon and hahn doesn't like to make money i guess. If the price would've been right, I would've had a very difficult time deciding between the ZFR and a 3076r kit.
04-10-2014, 08:50 AM
#12
It really doesn't take a dump. I went to Hershey last year with the zfr and 4.45s and still manged 35mpgs while doing occasional highway pulls. Before leaving I filled up with 12.2 gallons(ya not completely empty, but you get the point) went 430 miles and filled up at a gas station on the way back and got 12 gallons iirc. Still pretty damn good. Lol. Staying at 70@3k is key.
04-10-2014, 09:05 AM
#15
Junior Member
Thread Starter
04-10-2014, 12:31 PM
#17
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04-11-2014, 10:29 PM
#23
Great review. 10-4 on Hahn/Jackass. ZZP do good no doubt.
re 4.45/ drive your stock LNF in 4th. Thats roughly where 5th will be on a 4.45. A little taller but not much. I did an AB today with a 3.82 LNF and my 4.45 Redline just for that. well and other things. but still
re 4.45/ drive your stock LNF in 4th. Thats roughly where 5th will be on a 4.45. A little taller but not much. I did an AB today with a 3.82 LNF and my 4.45 Redline just for that. well and other things. but still
