Enthusiasts and vendors alike... header testing inside!
08-09-2009, 09:36 PM
#251
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20 total degrees shouldnt be a problem, but maybe raptors tune includes other adders, and doesnt realize it... idk just a guess.. but eiter way 13* is conservative on a no meth tune
08-09-2009, 09:41 PM
#252
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Okay, first and foremost I know your mods. Second I am not JBP and this is not my product. Yes I agree about being different cars and tunes can be different, however only your ported head makes the difference. As for stating the size of the blower and how much psi you are moving, that does not mean anything. How much air are you moving through your MAF????? I do have a TVS, I do have a LS4 TB, I do not have the 3" intake, I do have 3" exhaust, I do have meth injection and only a 50/50 mix, I do not have a ported head yet. I have option B and extra heat exchanger, I am also running 24 deg. of timing and make alot more power than you are.
So, my disbelief comes from experience with tuning, and my own car says there is something wrong with this test. I think this is a great thread and when your done posting your findings if there is a clear advantage to having a certain header that is going to improve on my own setup, I am going to go with it, dont have to say anything about the JBP header, I just dont think the header is responsible for the power problem, I also dont think it is the best for the setup you or I have at this level. I applaude your time effort and expense with this project, but I am sure you can understand why I am skeptical. Your telling me that this header is responsible for all the power loss and that some stage 2 cars are faster than you are now???
Forgive me for calling BS, I should have really said, " hold on here, I think there is a flaw in the test" I apologize for that.
I agree, JBP has earned their shitty reputation but this has nothing to do with that.
So if anything I am being critical of the information being provided, that is how you get to the bottom of things, not by believing the first thing you are told or shown.
So, my disbelief comes from experience with tuning, and my own car says there is something wrong with this test. I think this is a great thread and when your done posting your findings if there is a clear advantage to having a certain header that is going to improve on my own setup, I am going to go with it, dont have to say anything about the JBP header, I just dont think the header is responsible for the power problem, I also dont think it is the best for the setup you or I have at this level. I applaude your time effort and expense with this project, but I am sure you can understand why I am skeptical. Your telling me that this header is responsible for all the power loss and that some stage 2 cars are faster than you are now???
Forgive me for calling BS, I should have really said, " hold on here, I think there is a flaw in the test" I apologize for that.
I agree, JBP has earned their shitty reputation but this has nothing to do with that.
So if anything I am being critical of the information being provided, that is how you get to the bottom of things, not by believing the first thing you are told or shown.
First off, I made this thread for the simple fact of providing information, and not adding any bias as far as feelings. True, I do have my own thoughts about which one will end up being the best for my car, but I have not, and will not skew anything to make any one header look better or worse than the rest. I have no intention of drowning the jbp header without due reason. With that, since you are talking like your power output is so much higher than mine, then I will suggest that you post one of your dyno runs on this thread.
Now don't take me wrong when I say this, but 24* of timing means nothing to me now. I made 312whp in sae figures on the stock restrictive header. And that was at 17* timing. You haven't even posted in the official dyno thread that has been updated and redone over the last three years. The highest numbers now, not including nitrous, is from area47 at 342. I would think that you would want to show your accomplishments. I would like to see your accomplishment instead of just hearing how much more power you've made.
The tune was not the issue. The guy who tunes my car is very proficient, and by his recommendation, we chose not to do a max tune. Moving the tune that far out for the stock header would only cause more time to be wasted between the different headers. A clean tune was decided on, where the tune was both conservative and would provide a level playing field for the competition. If a header provided less restriction and more flow, then the numbers would be slightly better obviously. There could be a slight drop or rise in boost levels as well.
For the record, my maf reading for the stock header was about 44 lbs/min, where as the jbp header reading was around 40. But like I said before, that's only one of the problems. Also, the boost level didn't drop from the stock header at all. It remained the same all the way to the top. Also I have pictures to show pretty much what I'm saying.
If anyone wants to send me their jbp header then i'll be glad to do things again. (I know Joe probably won't help me get it back in.) Maybe I just got a shitty header from the group buy in March last year. The thing is that I am not going to sacrifice my engine to make a header look better.
Pictures are coming...
Last edited by Deathscythe; 08-10-2009 at 10:24 AM.
08-09-2009, 10:10 PM
#255
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I don't know if this will help anybody, but Deathscythe's tuner is an experienced mechanical engineer, and has his own tuning company. He has tuned a lot of cars in the area in both Virginia and North Carolina. He also consults for many well respected tuning companies, and at least one injector manufacturer. He also speaks with a well respected tuning book author, and has the newest releases of the tuning software. I am always skeptical of people and what they say they can do because they are usually trying to convince themselves first, but this guy is legit. The problem is not the tuner. The tuner also helped in building the engine, yet has nothing to gain out of these header tests. He has fixed many other people's mistakes, and I trust him with my car. These test results are legit. If there was a problem with the car it would have been fixed before any results were posted, or dynos conducted. Just go back a few pages in this thread to see what happened the first time they tried to dyno the JBP header. I personally know Deathscythe and the tuner. They are not slacking on this. Both people are very reputable, and outstanding characters. The tuner will likely not respond to Rippin07 because he has nothing to prove. His work will speak for itself. However, I will not sit idley by while a tool who claims to make more power on an M62 with an LS4 tb, on a 2.5" CAI than a TVS car with the stock header making over 300whp insults my friends and the reputable work they are doing. Rippin07, as you said to Short on page 13 of this thread, "you have no clue."qft!
Last edited by domin8_gt; 08-09-2009 at 10:10 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
08-09-2009, 10:13 PM
#256
i was the first one to recieve that header from the GB. damn it all! haha. i got a jbp header for sale! lol. this coulda contributed to all of the knock problems i had last year... god im glad i found this **** out. im lookin to put my bitch back together in a few weeks, minus the JBP header. what one should i get now?
08-09-2009, 10:16 PM
#257
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i was the first one to recieve that header from the GB. damn it all! haha. i got a jbp header for sale! lol. this coulda contributed to all of the knock problems i had last year... god im glad i found this **** out. im lookin to put my bitch back together in a few weeks, minus the JBP header. what one should i get now?
08-09-2009, 10:31 PM
#261
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well ill still be on the m62 w/ a 2.8", i have a ported head w oversized valves and im cammed... so im thinkin its a no no for the vortex
well im stayin w the m62 w/ a 2.8" but i have a ported head with oversized valves and im cammed aswell. im thinkin thats a no no for the jbp vortex
well im stayin w the m62 w/ a 2.8" but i have a ported head with oversized valves and im cammed aswell. im thinkin thats a no no for the jbp vortex
08-09-2009, 10:47 PM
#263
wow! mine dosnt look nearly that bad... all of my bends are smooth and i dont have any contact at all. i think you may have gotten a crappy header. none the less my faith in the vortex is shot. makes me wonder about my friggin jbp vortex stg2 cams aswell... although they seemed to make nice power. i think my money is gonna be on clearimage or pacesetter now...
08-09-2009, 10:55 PM
#264
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jbp has proven time and time again that they will either steal from customers, screw them over, or break their cars....i would get rid of ANYTHING jbp on my car if i had it...this just makes it even worse...
08-09-2009, 10:58 PM
#265
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like I said before, it's quite clear that the one I received was poorly made. there are more than 15 tight bends in mine, and exhaust gas flow doesn't want to make sharp turns. This is not going to become a e-fight, as I know we didn't do anything to tamper with the results. Take them as you will, but my car averaging only about 9 degrees timing speaks on the poor craftsmanship with this piece.
08-09-2009, 11:03 PM
#266
im definatly not standing up for the header or JBP for that matter... im upset w the results aswell **** loads of other people that bough it. im just pullin my hair out because of the money i spent in that thing in the Group Buy. what are the chances we can get some compensation outta jbp! haha
08-09-2009, 11:50 PM
#267
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[QUOTE=raptors_67;4199201]I don't see how this information equates to twice the air... but anyways. Here's my dyno findings of the JBP header. There were timing changes from my baseline. This was done on the m62 with 2.75" pulley through stock exhaust and ramping to 16 degrees timing, I was able to advance timing somewhat coming from stock header. 11.8 to 12.0 AFR. I also got my JBP on the group buy and none of the primaries are touching. No bias here but I don't think it's fair to sway people's decisions away from purchasing something based upon the findings of one person. Having said that... I don't think what one person has to say should be the sole bases of your decision to purchase or not purchase something. I wouldn't tell anyone to rush out and buy something just because of my opinion of it. I'm sure the OP can agree with that statement.[QUOTE]
I think you misunderstand me. The theory behind boost is basically the measurement of how much more air is being introduced into the block. Naturally aspirated engines don't experience boost because the air isn't being forced into the block, hence the term 'forced induction'. Our superchargers pull in air from the outside, compress it and force that compressed air into the intake manifold, eventually getting to the engine. My car saw 12.5 psi in it's stock form two years ago. Now my tvs, that moves more air easier than the m62, is still causing a boost pressure of 22.3 to be seen in the upper range ~5500 rpm. So basically, I'm forcing 22.3 psi into the motor instead of the normal 12.5. The math is there.
And for your other thought, NO, I am not vendor bashing. That's why I have pictures so you can see for yourself what I spent my money on. A supposedly great flowing header that has sharp turns and two places where the primaries touch. My honest opinion is that this header will most likely work on mildly modified vehicles, or a n/a car. That way it won't be a burden on the header to deal with moving large amounts of air. And I don't care what you say, it isn't an "equal length header. I'm not trying to sway anyone, but they've had a bad rep in the past, and this is just another reason why. If you are one that cares more for sound than performance, then this header will work just fine.
Period.
I remember now, we purchased our headers in the same group buy. I always wondered until now why they wouldn't dyno it and post numbers...
I forgot to mention that the vibrant setup is on as of now. Once again, we went back to the tune which was used for the car going up to the day it was dynoed with the stock header. The car ran without issue, and I was introduced to torque steer again. That's something I forgot about with the jbp header on. The car ran up through 7500 with zero knock, and my boost level dropped down from 22.3 to 21.6. You'd think that the car would be choked up some since the dp is only 2.5" but according to the butt dyno, it doesn't feel like it. I'm not expecting it to be earth shattering, but I do anticipate close to stock numbers.
I think you misunderstand me. The theory behind boost is basically the measurement of how much more air is being introduced into the block. Naturally aspirated engines don't experience boost because the air isn't being forced into the block, hence the term 'forced induction'. Our superchargers pull in air from the outside, compress it and force that compressed air into the intake manifold, eventually getting to the engine. My car saw 12.5 psi in it's stock form two years ago. Now my tvs, that moves more air easier than the m62, is still causing a boost pressure of 22.3 to be seen in the upper range ~5500 rpm. So basically, I'm forcing 22.3 psi into the motor instead of the normal 12.5. The math is there.
And for your other thought, NO, I am not vendor bashing. That's why I have pictures so you can see for yourself what I spent my money on. A supposedly great flowing header that has sharp turns and two places where the primaries touch. My honest opinion is that this header will most likely work on mildly modified vehicles, or a n/a car. That way it won't be a burden on the header to deal with moving large amounts of air. And I don't care what you say, it isn't an "equal length header. I'm not trying to sway anyone, but they've had a bad rep in the past, and this is just another reason why. If you are one that cares more for sound than performance, then this header will work just fine.
Period.
im definatly not standing up for the header or JBP for that matter... im upset w the results aswell **** loads of other people that bough it. im just pullin my hair out because of the money i spent in that thing in the Group Buy. what are the chances we can get some compensation outta jbp! haha
I forgot to mention that the vibrant setup is on as of now. Once again, we went back to the tune which was used for the car going up to the day it was dynoed with the stock header. The car ran without issue, and I was introduced to torque steer again. That's something I forgot about with the jbp header on. The car ran up through 7500 with zero knock, and my boost level dropped down from 22.3 to 21.6. You'd think that the car would be choked up some since the dp is only 2.5" but according to the butt dyno, it doesn't feel like it. I'm not expecting it to be earth shattering, but I do anticipate close to stock numbers.
Last edited by Deathscythe; 08-09-2009 at 11:50 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
08-10-2009, 12:34 AM
#269
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Cool, good to see the pics of the header, yes it looks like you recieved a bad header, no excuse for that ****. My header looks nothing like that at all.
First Domin8 this "tool" never made such claim about an m62 and LS4tb. I never called any tuner out or ****, I said the tune is whak, in all my years I have yet to see a header cause an AFR to change from pull to pull, especially when before the meth problem he drove the car for a week and there is no mention of this problem anywhere!!. Reading and you dont get along, YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE. Second, I am not calling out death, maybe you should continue to read my posts I believe I applauded what he is doing. You guys want to bitch because someone is being critical of the information? Get a life and learn to think for yourselves, followers. Short stack, call the F1 teams and give them your straw theory, then the GT40 engineers etc.
First Domin8 this "tool" never made such claim about an m62 and LS4tb. I never called any tuner out or ****, I said the tune is whak, in all my years I have yet to see a header cause an AFR to change from pull to pull, especially when before the meth problem he drove the car for a week and there is no mention of this problem anywhere!!. Reading and you dont get along, YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE. Second, I am not calling out death, maybe you should continue to read my posts I believe I applauded what he is doing. You guys want to bitch because someone is being critical of the information? Get a life and learn to think for yourselves, followers. Short stack, call the F1 teams and give them your straw theory, then the GT40 engineers etc.
Last edited by Rippin07; 08-10-2009 at 12:52 AM.
08-10-2009, 02:35 AM
#273
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[QUOTE=Deathscythe;4200478]
I forgot to mention that the vibrant setup is on as of now. Once again, we went back to the tune which was used for the car going up to the day it was dynoed with the stock header. The car ran without issue, and I was introduced to torque steer again. That's something I forgot about with the jbp header on. The car ran up through 7500 with zero knock, and my boost level dropped down from 22.3 to 21.6. You'd think that the car would be choked up some since the dp is only 2.5" but according to the butt dyno, it doesn't feel like it. I'm not expecting it to be earth shattering, but I do anticipate close to stock numbers.
sorrry reading pwns me lol, are you talking about the vibrant setup close to stock header hp? also what cat-back do you have
I forgot to mention that the vibrant setup is on as of now. Once again, we went back to the tune which was used for the car going up to the day it was dynoed with the stock header. The car ran without issue, and I was introduced to torque steer again. That's something I forgot about with the jbp header on. The car ran up through 7500 with zero knock, and my boost level dropped down from 22.3 to 21.6. You'd think that the car would be choked up some since the dp is only 2.5" but according to the butt dyno, it doesn't feel like it. I'm not expecting it to be earth shattering, but I do anticipate close to stock numbers.
08-10-2009, 02:46 AM
#274
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The theory behind boost is basically the measurement of how much more air is being introduced into the block. Naturally aspirated engines don't experience boost because the air isn't being forced into the block, hence the term 'forced induction'. Our superchargers pull in air from the outside, compress it and force that compressed air into the intake manifold, eventually getting to the engine. My car saw 12.5 psi in it's stock form two years ago. Now my tvs, that moves more air easier than the m62, is still causing a boost pressure of 22.3 to be seen in the upper range ~5500 rpm. So basically, I'm forcing 22.3 psi into the motor instead of the normal 12.5. The math is there.
Purely for information sake. I have no idea if the bends in my header are different from the OP or not but it didn't seem like any of the bends created a smaller diameter or "choke" point. I also don't know if another make of header would have shown better or worse results, all I have is the before and after data. If his is different or defective in any way that's definetly something to consider before a purchase. Did you contact JBP at all and ask them about the issues you had?
