How to tune the LSJ or any car for that matter.
01-31-2006, 12:03 PM
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How to tune the LSJ or any car for that matter.
How to tune the LSJ or any car for that matter.
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First thing is first. You need to know what a STOCK car's ECU wants to see.
You need to datalog all the sensors of the stock car under different operating conditions. I use an OBDII scanner for my laptop and datalog all of the sensors and ignition timing. I scan it under normal cruising, idle, WOT, Decell, partial throttle accell. You need to pay attention to MAF sensor peaks, MAP sensor peaks, and ignition timing peaks.
Now you want to go fast but your ECU doesn't. What to do what to do? Well for one is to trick the ECU. Put the ECU in it's happy place. Make it think that everything is OK when the truth is you are boosting the hell out of it. YOu need to reproduce it normal operating conditions by emmulating it's normal sensor outputs. Go no higher than the normal MAF sensor fequencey. No more voltage than what the MAP sensor would normally produce. You need to cap or clamp these sensors off. You need to do it to all of the sensors.
Add boost add fuel. Do not attempt to do anyting to your car with out being able to monitor whats going on. YOU NEED A WIDEBAND O2 before you change boost or attempt to tune anything.
Larger injectors. You want to run larger injectors and pull back on the MAF frequency to make it idle and run right. Well in this situataion you can take the MAF out of it's normal operating scope and result in changes of normal engine operation. (more ignition timing). You can get away with this if it is a narrow margin. Tune in the air fuel ratio that you are looking for then compair the MAF readings with your stock reading. Try and compromise with the tune and meet in the middle. I really don't recommend this method and in the end on the LSJ YOU CAN"T ADD ENOUGH FUEL to make up for the the last few 100 RPMs of the map where the ECU pulls boost.
The best way to tune is to be able to manipulate all sensors that the ECU reads. Tune your so that you do not exceed the peak Grams per second reading on the MAF and KPA on the MAP sensor. By doing this your car thinks that everything is normal. Well how do you get more fuel for the boost? You need to add extra injectors. These injectors are going to tie into your current fuel system and need to be driven off a piggyback that has Pulse Width Injection. You can inject the fuel totally seperate of the factory ECU.
You see the ECU has no idea what is going on. You can get away with Murder this way
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First thing is first. You need to know what a STOCK car's ECU wants to see.
You need to datalog all the sensors of the stock car under different operating conditions. I use an OBDII scanner for my laptop and datalog all of the sensors and ignition timing. I scan it under normal cruising, idle, WOT, Decell, partial throttle accell. You need to pay attention to MAF sensor peaks, MAP sensor peaks, and ignition timing peaks.
Now you want to go fast but your ECU doesn't. What to do what to do? Well for one is to trick the ECU. Put the ECU in it's happy place. Make it think that everything is OK when the truth is you are boosting the hell out of it. YOu need to reproduce it normal operating conditions by emmulating it's normal sensor outputs. Go no higher than the normal MAF sensor fequencey. No more voltage than what the MAP sensor would normally produce. You need to cap or clamp these sensors off. You need to do it to all of the sensors.
Add boost add fuel. Do not attempt to do anyting to your car with out being able to monitor whats going on. YOU NEED A WIDEBAND O2 before you change boost or attempt to tune anything.
Larger injectors. You want to run larger injectors and pull back on the MAF frequency to make it idle and run right. Well in this situataion you can take the MAF out of it's normal operating scope and result in changes of normal engine operation. (more ignition timing). You can get away with this if it is a narrow margin. Tune in the air fuel ratio that you are looking for then compair the MAF readings with your stock reading. Try and compromise with the tune and meet in the middle. I really don't recommend this method and in the end on the LSJ YOU CAN"T ADD ENOUGH FUEL to make up for the the last few 100 RPMs of the map where the ECU pulls boost.
The best way to tune is to be able to manipulate all sensors that the ECU reads. Tune your so that you do not exceed the peak Grams per second reading on the MAF and KPA on the MAP sensor. By doing this your car thinks that everything is normal. Well how do you get more fuel for the boost? You need to add extra injectors. These injectors are going to tie into your current fuel system and need to be driven off a piggyback that has Pulse Width Injection. You can inject the fuel totally seperate of the factory ECU.
You see the ECU has no idea what is going on. You can get away with Murder this way
01-31-2006, 12:10 PM
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I love you...but not in that kind of way...also you every play with the smt-7? Seems to have a lot of neat features like launch control and you can modify like more than 2 sensors at once or something like that. I wonder if the wiring would be the same as the smt-6?
Dan
Dan
01-31-2006, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by djt81185
I love you...but not in that kind of way...also you every play with the smt-7? Seems to have a lot of neat features like launch control and you can modify like more than 2 sensors at once or something like that. I wonder if the wiring would be the same as the smt-6?
Dan
Dan
I was one of the first in this country to play with the SMT7. There are still some issues with it. They also need to make a config file for our crank trigger and cam trigger patterns. If it works they way it is suppose to then it will be a GOD SEND.
But it doesn't 
01-31-2006, 02:11 PM
#7
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I tune with a hammer.
I asked about the SMT7 and they said the same thing to me twincharged, probably based of your experience with it. Are you a member of the powerperfect forums?
Have you ever checked out the TurboXS UTEC? They don't make a platform for our car but it's a pretty neat concept.
I asked about the SMT7 and they said the same thing to me twincharged, probably based of your experience with it. Are you a member of the powerperfect forums?
Have you ever checked out the TurboXS UTEC? They don't make a platform for our car but it's a pretty neat concept.
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01-31-2006, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by zinner
I tune with a hammer.
I asked about the SMT7 and they said the same thing to me twincharged, probably based of your experience with it. Are you a member of the powerperfect forums?
Have you ever checked out the TurboXS UTEC? They don't make a platform for our car but it's a pretty neat concept.
I asked about the SMT7 and they said the same thing to me twincharged, probably based of your experience with it. Are you a member of the powerperfect forums?
Have you ever checked out the TurboXS UTEC? They don't make a platform for our car but it's a pretty neat concept.
01-31-2006, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Twincharged
I was one of the first in this country to play with the SMT7. There are still some issues with it. They also need to make a config file for our crank trigger and cam trigger patterns. If it works they way it is suppose to then it will be a GOD SEND. But it doesn't
But it doesn't Disclaimer:
I don't have much to any experience tuning with them though i understand the basic concepts. Enlighten me
01-31-2006, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by djt81185
So they dont currently have those trigger patterns for the crank or the cam...what are the designs of each...I know my neon was like 30-1 iirc. Would the smt-6 config files work? Can you create the trigger files on your own or is that something they have to do?
Disclaimer:
I don't have much to any experience tuning with them though i understand the basic concepts. Enlighten me
Disclaimer:
I don't have much to any experience tuning with them though i understand the basic concepts. Enlighten me
01-31-2006, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Twincharged
The patterns are not available and they are far from the same as the Neons.
Dan
01-31-2006, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by djt81185
If you had the patterns or knew what they were would it be possible to make the files (like you would need to know how many teeth, which ones are missing...where they are located, etc correct?)? I figured it was different than a neons...I bet this thing has 2 or 3 times the electronics of 1st gen.
Dan
Dan
On the SMT6 you can setup the patterns but on the SMT7 it is a preconfiged file you must load from the factory.
01-31-2006, 03:25 PM
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What parameters should we be monitoring with autotap to see what we need, and what is going wrong? There was a spreadsheet floating around when I was working with LS1 edit that put the data logs into useable form, is there anyone here that is good enough at setting up spreadsheets to do this? I believe this guy had one a version for the 3800sc guys too on ls1 . com a long time ago so I think he might be able to adapt it.
01-31-2006, 03:42 PM
#14
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If this will help everyone's efforts...
The LSJ crank trigger (CKP) is a 60-2 configuration (GM calls it a 58X) It is pretty much a standard issue Variable Reluctance (VR) design that, with each crank rotation, produces a consistent (although not perfectly sinusoidal) AC waveform of increasing amplitude and frequency (proportional to RPM). It is wired to PCM connector C2 terminals 17(yellow) and 18 (purple)
The camshaft position sensor (CMP) is a 2X design with 4 "notches" producing 4 signal cycles every rotation of the exhaust cam or 2 for every crankshaft revolution (hence 2X).
This sensor is a Hall Effect/Magneto-Resistive (MR) design that actually produces a digital square waveform (5V referenced) and sycronized to specific cam events. It is connected to PCM connectpr C2 terminal 26 (brown/white)
Because this sensor is driven by a hex-drive with 6 possible splined positions, it can easliy be installed "out-of-time" which can disrupt both fuel delivery and spark timing. The 2006 LSJ calibration now includes a new DTC (P0017) that will detect a cam signal (CMP) that is out-of-phase with the CKP signals.
HTH
WopOnTour
The LSJ crank trigger (CKP) is a 60-2 configuration (GM calls it a 58X) It is pretty much a standard issue Variable Reluctance (VR) design that, with each crank rotation, produces a consistent (although not perfectly sinusoidal) AC waveform of increasing amplitude and frequency (proportional to RPM). It is wired to PCM connector C2 terminals 17(yellow) and 18 (purple)
The camshaft position sensor (CMP) is a 2X design with 4 "notches" producing 4 signal cycles every rotation of the exhaust cam or 2 for every crankshaft revolution (hence 2X).
This sensor is a Hall Effect/Magneto-Resistive (MR) design that actually produces a digital square waveform (5V referenced) and sycronized to specific cam events. It is connected to PCM connectpr C2 terminal 26 (brown/white)
Because this sensor is driven by a hex-drive with 6 possible splined positions, it can easliy be installed "out-of-time" which can disrupt both fuel delivery and spark timing. The 2006 LSJ calibration now includes a new DTC (P0017) that will detect a cam signal (CMP) that is out-of-phase with the CKP signals.
HTH
WopOnTour
01-31-2006, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by WopOnTour
The 2006 LSJ calibration now includes a new DTC (P0017) that will detect a cam signal (CMP) that is out-of-phase with the CKP signals.
HTH
WopOnTour
HTH
WopOnTour
Even then they are incredibly slow at getting this back to you if at all. Trust me I tried.
02-23-2006, 10:14 PM
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For those who build a stage kit by themselves ...
Here are my opinion, please guys correct me if I'm wrong.
The MAF sensor is implied in several calculations by the PCM. It's related to the RPM and also the MAP sensor #1 (the one BEFORE the supercharger). I think (and have experimented) that tricking it will only permit to tune the air fuel ratio within a small range, thus affecting the ignition timing in a not optimised way.
I DO NOT suggest the Apexi S-AFC II for our cars. Ray from Revitup clearly said that he didn't been able to get it work properly on his wife's supercharged Cobalt SS.
For the air fuel tuning, the service shop manual clearly says that the injector pulse width is controlled by the rpm, the intake air temperature, the engine coolant temperature and the load. With a small pulley (smaller than 2.8") the LOAD factor here is the more important factor to take care of. That's why tricking the Mass air flow signal is not as effective as tricking the MAP (manifold absolute pressure signal; that's the pressure after the supercharger). Fooling the mass air flow signal down let the PCM thinks it's less loaded, so he runs more timing, resulting in knock retard.
About the MAP signal, you're choice is to clamp it or to scale it. I will myself try soon to scale it, since I think to clamp it (especially when you run a pully smaller than 2.8") will not be as effective.
There is at least two device to do that. First is the Perfect Power SMT-6 piggyback (as used by Twincharged or in the former PSI-FI kit or the current Revitup Kit) or the second device is the Split Second PSC-1 controller.
Both have advantages and disadvantages. SMT-6 is very great and can controll and fool mainly every parameters on a car; that's impressive. But one problem is that the version sold to us (customer) is a box with wires, with no ability for us to program it, so we have to buy it with the calibration provided by (or ask to) the seller. There is a SMT-6D (developper series) that is sold only to dealers and can tuned by a laptop.
About the Split Second PSC-1 controller, it's a bit cheaper, it's only able to scale the map signal and is programmable by a laptop.
Hope this could help ...
The MAF sensor is implied in several calculations by the PCM. It's related to the RPM and also the MAP sensor #1 (the one BEFORE the supercharger). I think (and have experimented) that tricking it will only permit to tune the air fuel ratio within a small range, thus affecting the ignition timing in a not optimised way.
I DO NOT suggest the Apexi S-AFC II for our cars. Ray from Revitup clearly said that he didn't been able to get it work properly on his wife's supercharged Cobalt SS.
For the air fuel tuning, the service shop manual clearly says that the injector pulse width is controlled by the rpm, the intake air temperature, the engine coolant temperature and the load. With a small pulley (smaller than 2.8") the LOAD factor here is the more important factor to take care of. That's why tricking the Mass air flow signal is not as effective as tricking the MAP (manifold absolute pressure signal; that's the pressure after the supercharger). Fooling the mass air flow signal down let the PCM thinks it's less loaded, so he runs more timing, resulting in knock retard.
About the MAP signal, you're choice is to clamp it or to scale it. I will myself try soon to scale it, since I think to clamp it (especially when you run a pully smaller than 2.8") will not be as effective.
There is at least two device to do that. First is the Perfect Power SMT-6 piggyback (as used by Twincharged or in the former PSI-FI kit or the current Revitup Kit) or the second device is the Split Second PSC-1 controller.
Both have advantages and disadvantages. SMT-6 is very great and can controll and fool mainly every parameters on a car; that's impressive. But one problem is that the version sold to us (customer) is a box with wires, with no ability for us to program it, so we have to buy it with the calibration provided by (or ask to) the seller. There is a SMT-6D (developper series) that is sold only to dealers and can tuned by a laptop.
About the Split Second PSC-1 controller, it's a bit cheaper, it's only able to scale the map signal and is programmable by a laptop.
Hope this could help ...
05-12-2006, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by WopOnTour
The 2006 LSJ calibration now includes a new DTC (P0017) that will detect a cam signal (CMP) that is out-of-phase with the CKP signals.
WopOnTour
WopOnTour
now that HP Tuners is out, what should I do to best tune for these cams, because I am getting the P0017
thanks
I want to get the HP Tuner software, but I still have a lot of learnign to do before I play around with it
05-12-2006, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by player_1
As you know I have JBP cams in my car, we we have double checked the cams and they are installed correctly.
now that HP Tuners is out, what should I do to best tune for these cams, because I am getting the P0017
thanks
I want to get the HP Tuner software, but I still have a lot of learnign to do before I play around with it
now that HP Tuners is out, what should I do to best tune for these cams, because I am getting the P0017
thanks
I want to get the HP Tuner software, but I still have a lot of learnign to do before I play around with it
read this thread and it will explain a simular instance when a guy installed a cam 1 tooth off.
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5512
You can disable the codes with the software... example... 2nd o2 sensor fault code.
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5456
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5419
hope that helps
05-12-2006, 04:07 PM
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well the cam is installed correctly, but I just don't just want to eliminate the code I actually want to tune it so that the code disapears because there is no longer a problem, not hide or ignore the problem.
what do I adjust to fix this problem and get the most out of my cam?
what do I adjust to fix this problem and get the most out of my cam?
05-12-2006, 04:15 PM
#20
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You should ask support@hptuners.com about your problem. There are things that you can adjust/change that aren't part of the interface.
Or I guess you could ask then in there supporting vendor forum.
Or I guess you could ask then in there supporting vendor forum.
06-25-2006, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Twincharged
The best way to tune is to be able to manipulate all sensors that the ECU reads.
wow, no offense man, but i can't even BEGIN to say how utterly wrong that statement is.
The best way to tune is to be able to change the tables in the ecu in order to instruct it to do what YOU the tuner want it to do when it sees a certain condition. Fooling sensors does work in a lot of cases, and if done well can create a very good tune, but it will never be the BEST way of tuning. Perhaps the best available in certain cases, but with something like HPTuners available for the SS, I see absolutely no reason to ever mess with a piggyback.
06-25-2006, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JerseyJay
wow, no offense man, but i can't even BEGIN to say how utterly wrong that statement is.
06-25-2006, 09:26 PM
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i'm well aware of it being an old post, but even still that statement is totally erroneous regardless of if hptuners was out or wasn't. Beyond that, if the post is old, why hasn't it been replaced with useful information by now? like an hpt faq or .bin repository?
06-25-2006, 09:35 PM
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here is a link to a .bin repository
www.horist.com/hptuner
red line forums.com has some useful info about hptuners,
on this forum, its mixed in and a little difficult to find.
www.horist.com/hptuner
red line forums.com has some useful info about hptuners,
on this forum, its mixed in and a little difficult to find.