My M62 E85 car will wax the floor vs most TVS cars on gasoline...
10-01-2009, 01:23 PM
#1
My M62 E85 car will wax the floor vs most TVS cars on gasoline...
Bold statement right? Well here is my proof.
Both cars were tuned to the max power I could get out of them.
Blue Line - My car, M62, 2.7", E85
Red Line - My Car, TVS, 3.15", 93 Octane
Although the TVS has higher peak hp the M62 dominates it in the TQ category. The TVS does not beat the M62 until after 6k rpms. If you think about the a 1/4 mile run the car runs from 3k-6k must longer then it runs from 6k-7k. Winner = M62!
TVS on E85
Red Line - My car, TVS, E85, 2.9"
Green Line - My car, TVS, E85, 2.9"
Blue Line - My car, TVS, 93 Octane, 3.15"
TVS vs M62, both on E85
Red and Blue - TVS, E85
Green - M62, E85
You can see that the TVS has better tq and better hp through the entire powerband.
TVS FTW!
The moral of the story is...
If you are going to run a TVS you need to raise your octane! E85 or Meth injection works just fine.
Per federal (DOE) specifications E85 does change the % ethanol vs hydrocarbon by season. The purpose of this is to raise the Reid Vapor Pressure of the fuel for cold starts in flex fuel vehicles (FFV's)- this is done by increasing the % hydrocarbon (gas component) as colder temps are expected.
Here are the normal months changes begin to happen as one moves thru the seasons and the final blend % alcohol for Wisconsin's lattitude;
Sept 1st to Oct 31st - 78%
Nov 1st to March 31st - 70%
April 1st to May 15th - 78%
May 16th to Aug 31st - 83%
(% alcohol is stated in pure terms w/o denaturing gas-- thus the Summer E85 is 85% denatured ethanol but only 83.3% pure 200 proof booze). The months stated above will generally see changes happen near the first day of the month (except May and Sept) unless the weather is holding steady.
Both cars were tuned to the max power I could get out of them.
Blue Line - My car, M62, 2.7", E85
Red Line - My Car, TVS, 3.15", 93 Octane
Although the TVS has higher peak hp the M62 dominates it in the TQ category. The TVS does not beat the M62 until after 6k rpms. If you think about the a 1/4 mile run the car runs from 3k-6k must longer then it runs from 6k-7k. Winner = M62!
TVS on E85
Red Line - My car, TVS, E85, 2.9"
Green Line - My car, TVS, E85, 2.9"
Blue Line - My car, TVS, 93 Octane, 3.15"
TVS vs M62, both on E85
Red and Blue - TVS, E85
Green - M62, E85
You can see that the TVS has better tq and better hp through the entire powerband.
TVS FTW!
The moral of the story is...
If you are going to run a TVS you need to raise your octane! E85 or Meth injection works just fine.
Per federal (DOE) specifications E85 does change the % ethanol vs hydrocarbon by season. The purpose of this is to raise the Reid Vapor Pressure of the fuel for cold starts in flex fuel vehicles (FFV's)- this is done by increasing the % hydrocarbon (gas component) as colder temps are expected.
Here are the normal months changes begin to happen as one moves thru the seasons and the final blend % alcohol for Wisconsin's lattitude;
Sept 1st to Oct 31st - 78%
Nov 1st to March 31st - 70%
April 1st to May 15th - 78%
May 16th to Aug 31st - 83%
(% alcohol is stated in pure terms w/o denaturing gas-- thus the Summer E85 is 85% denatured ethanol but only 83.3% pure 200 proof booze). The months stated above will generally see changes happen near the first day of the month (except May and Sept) unless the weather is holding steady.
Last edited by ebristol; 12-08-2009 at 03:22 PM.
10-01-2009, 01:39 PM
#4
jkI know that most people know this but it is nice to get a good visual of what that looks like on the dyno.
When I took my TVS off, reinstalled the M62 and converted to E85 my first thoughts where "my M62 E85 car pulley a lot harder then my TVS car". And after I went to the dyno those thoughts were confirmed.
10-01-2009, 01:44 PM
#7
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: 02-04-08
Location: Wadsworth, OH
Posts: 4,613
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, I'm a little confused....are you saying TVS on E85 is better than the M62 on E85 or that the M62 beats the TVS with the right tune and setup while running on the E85? Cuz I was strongly debating doing a TVS with a 2.8 and E85, but if the M62 makes better power, then I'll save me money
10-01-2009, 01:55 PM
#10
With the TVS on 93 octane and the 3.15" pulley I could only squeeze 19 degrees of timing out of it before kr. I could have one with a smaller pulley but I would have had to pull back the timing which would have been almost a wash.
With the M62 on E85 (105 octane) and the 2.7" pulley I could run 25 degrees of timing no problem. I could have probably gone down to a 2.6" and really built some tq.
So, I'm a little confused....are you saying TVS on E85 is better than the M62 on E85 or that the M62 beats the TVS with the right tune and setup while running on the E85? Cuz I was strongly debating doing a TVS with a 2.8 and E85, but if the M62 makes better power, then I'll save me money
All I am saying, and as Zooomer has hinted at for quite a while, is that it take high octane fuel to make big power out of the TVS. High octane fuel = E85 or Meth injection with a high mixture of methanol to water. Like 90/10 meth to water. If you are not willing to raise the octane level of your car then the TVS is not the way to go.
But if you do raise the octane level of your then the TVS is ****! Most people already know this but I wanted to share a nice visual look at it with the dyno graphs.
I was not running meth injection on any of these runs.
Last edited by ebristol; 10-01-2009 at 01:55 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
10-01-2009, 01:57 PM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: 06-29-07
Location: Virginia
Posts: 693
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is a variable. But the constant is the fact that I tuned each car to the max power I could get out of it per the setup.
With the TVS on 93 octane and the 3.15" pulley I could only squeeze 19 degrees of timing out of it before kr. I could have one with a smaller pulley but I would have had to pull back the timing which would have been almost a wash.
With the M62 on E85 (105 octane) and the 2.7" pulley I could run 25 degrees of timing no problem. I could have probably gone down to a 2.6" and really built some tq.
Look for the Bold part.
All I am saying, and as Zooomer has hinted at for quite a while, is that it take high octane fuel to make big power out of the TVS. High octane fuel = E85 or Meth injection with a high mixture of methanol to water. Like 90/10 meth to water. If you are not willing to raise the octane level of your car then the TVS is not the way to go.
But if you do raise the octane level of your then the TVS is ****! Most people already know this but I wanted to share a nice visual look at it with the dyno graphs.
Same "cooling mods" on both setups. Dual pass endplate, Dual pass Heat Exchanger, Option b kit. Although I would considering E85 a supporting mod and cooling mod.
I was not running meth injection on any of these runs.
With the TVS on 93 octane and the 3.15" pulley I could only squeeze 19 degrees of timing out of it before kr. I could have one with a smaller pulley but I would have had to pull back the timing which would have been almost a wash.
With the M62 on E85 (105 octane) and the 2.7" pulley I could run 25 degrees of timing no problem. I could have probably gone down to a 2.6" and really built some tq.
Look for the Bold part.
All I am saying, and as Zooomer has hinted at for quite a while, is that it take high octane fuel to make big power out of the TVS. High octane fuel = E85 or Meth injection with a high mixture of methanol to water. Like 90/10 meth to water. If you are not willing to raise the octane level of your car then the TVS is not the way to go.
But if you do raise the octane level of your then the TVS is ****! Most people already know this but I wanted to share a nice visual look at it with the dyno graphs.
Same "cooling mods" on both setups. Dual pass endplate, Dual pass Heat Exchanger, Option b kit. Although I would considering E85 a supporting mod and cooling mod.
I was not running meth injection on any of these runs.
10-01-2009, 02:03 PM
#15
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: 02-04-08
Location: Wadsworth, OH
Posts: 4,613
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, sorry. I was looking for which made better power on the E85. High hp and torque aren't always what makes it best. I was trying to ask which blower gave the best hp and tq curve. Btw, I suck at reading dyno graphs, thats why I'm asking. I don't know if all those little troughs and peaks mean anything or not.
Edit: you answered this before I posted it lol my bad
Edit: you answered this before I posted it lol my bad
10-01-2009, 02:09 PM
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: 07-16-08
Location: Boynton Beach, Fl
Posts: 5,610
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
10-01-2009, 02:32 PM
#17
Yeah, sorry. I was looking for which made better power on the E85. High hp and torque aren't always what makes it best. I was trying to ask which blower gave the best hp and tq curve. Btw, I suck at reading dyno graphs, thats why I'm asking. I don't know if all those little troughs and peaks mean anything or not.
Edit: you answered this before I posted it lol my bad
Edit: you answered this before I posted it lol my bad
Red and Blue - TVS, E85
Green - M62, E85
You can see that the TVS has better tq and better hp through the entire powerband.
TVS FTW!
There is one crazy sole who has done this...
https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l-lsj-performance-tech-47/tvs-e85-dyno-186685/
But he did it because he was running out of injector.
Last edited by ebristol; 10-01-2009 at 02:32 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
10-01-2009, 02:40 PM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: 06-25-07
Location: Kissimmee, Fl
Posts: 6,003
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting.
What kind of AFR/Timing was being pulled on both cars?
Back when I was still on just 93 I was only pulling 15* of timing with an 11.5-11.7 AFR and I could pull a 2.9 pullied balt fairly easy.
I think the 2.7 on E85 and a TVS without E85 would be a decent race. I'm not too interested in dyno racing, I'd like to see track vids/results from these cars.
Also, what size injectors were being used on the M62 car?
What kind of AFR/Timing was being pulled on both cars?
Back when I was still on just 93 I was only pulling 15* of timing with an 11.5-11.7 AFR and I could pull a 2.9 pullied balt fairly easy.
I think the 2.7 on E85 and a TVS without E85 would be a decent race. I'm not too interested in dyno racing, I'd like to see track vids/results from these cars.
Also, what size injectors were being used on the M62 car?
10-01-2009, 02:51 PM
#20
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: 05-31-07
Location: SoCal, Lancaster
Posts: 4,339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
very interesting, great work. you have shed some light on a very expensive bolt on...
Im a fan of efficiency if im spending money, which is why i choose to do a turbo conversion... (imagine how much power it takes just to spin that tvs, not to mention the lack of cool dense air, this is why a turbo car will always prevail)
Im a fan of efficiency if im spending money, which is why i choose to do a turbo conversion... (imagine how much power it takes just to spin that tvs, not to mention the lack of cool dense air, this is why a turbo car will always prevail)
10-01-2009, 03:01 PM
#21
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: 01-23-06
Location: on here
Posts: 10,731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
very interesting, great work. you have shed some light on a very expensive bolt on...
Im a fan of efficiency if im spending money, which is why i choose to do a turbo conversion... (imagine how much power it takes just to spin that tvs, not to mention the lack of cool dense air, this is why a turbo car will always prevail)
Im a fan of efficiency if im spending money, which is why i choose to do a turbo conversion... (imagine how much power it takes just to spin that tvs, not to mention the lack of cool dense air, this is why a turbo car will always prevail)
As compared to the 65 hp of the m62.
You may be surprised to know that the tvs is more efficent then the hahn kit at the supplied pr from hahn.
10-01-2009, 03:03 PM
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: 10-06-05
Location: Seneca, South Carolina
Posts: 10,944
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
so what's the numbers? I can't see the pics here at work.
"BOOM!!"
from observe and report.
from observe and report.
Last edited by ralliartist; 10-01-2009 at 03:03 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
