My M62 E85 car will wax the floor vs most TVS cars on gasoline...
10-01-2009, 03:49 PM
#27
On the M62 2.7” E85 car I never played with the AFR. It is a flat 11.7-11.8 through out the run. 25 degrees of timing.
On the TVS 2.9” E85 car I ran 3 different commanded AFRs in PE. 11.8 flat, 11 flat and 11 flat till 5k then ramp up to 11.8 through redline. It made virtually no difference on the dyno. The last run had a spike in hp at the end which really should not count. 23 degrees of timing on these setups. I would see a touch of kr on 24 degrees.
True about dyno racing. But I can tell you that the M62 E85 car felt so much stronger then the TVS with E85. But I couldn’t race my car against itself unless I went to the track.
I was running Siemen 80# injectors on both setups. 88% IDC on the M62 2.7” and 110% IDC on the TVS 2.9”.
Peak numbers are not as important as the tq/hp curves I was trying to prove with M62, 2.7”, E85 vs TVS, 3.15”, 93 octane. You will have to check out the chart to see the full effect.
But I can break down some of the peak numbers on the different setups just to get an idea.
1. 329/290 – TVS, 2.9”, E85
2. 293/258 - TVS, 3.15”, Premium 93 Octane
3. 285/265 – M62, 2.7”, E85
The tq curve on the #3 looks so much better then #2. Even though the peak numbers are -8/-8 I think the #3 setup would rape the #2 setup.
Example: at 3500rpms #3 has +30wtq and +15whp on #2. #2 does not catch up until 6k.
The #1 setup has more hp and tq then #3 throughout the entire run.
TVS FTW!
90/10 meth to water with a big nozzle.
On the TVS 2.9” E85 car I ran 3 different commanded AFRs in PE. 11.8 flat, 11 flat and 11 flat till 5k then ramp up to 11.8 through redline. It made virtually no difference on the dyno. The last run had a spike in hp at the end which really should not count. 23 degrees of timing on these setups. I would see a touch of kr on 24 degrees.
I was running Siemen 80# injectors on both setups. 88% IDC on the M62 2.7” and 110% IDC on the TVS 2.9”.
Peak numbers are not as important as the tq/hp curves I was trying to prove with M62, 2.7”, E85 vs TVS, 3.15”, 93 octane. You will have to check out the chart to see the full effect.
But I can break down some of the peak numbers on the different setups just to get an idea.
1. 329/290 – TVS, 2.9”, E85
2. 293/258 - TVS, 3.15”, Premium 93 Octane
3. 285/265 – M62, 2.7”, E85
The tq curve on the #3 looks so much better then #2. Even though the peak numbers are -8/-8 I think the #3 setup would rape the #2 setup.
Example: at 3500rpms #3 has +30wtq and +15whp on #2. #2 does not catch up until 6k.
The #1 setup has more hp and tq then #3 throughout the entire run.
TVS FTW!
90/10 meth to water with a big nozzle.
10-01-2009, 04:00 PM
#29
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i think what he was asking was.... what if you are running E85 and need to fill up and there are no pumps in site... what do you do?
10-01-2009, 04:01 PM
#31
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Quick question. Most 93 has 10% ethenol in it. There are a couple gas stations around here that have e-20 with 20% ethenal. I havent looked but does anyone know what the octane rating is on that and would you have to have a tune to run it if it has a higher octane rating then 93?
10-01-2009, 04:18 PM
#32
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I'm a bit confused... now I'm no genius so don't think I'm calling you out or something.
First off, isn't comparing a M62 2.7" E85 vs. a TVS 3.15" pump gas putting the TVS at a disadvantage in the first place? (My thinking is apples to apples not apples to oranges... you dont compare a cobalt bolt-on to a Z06 bolt-on)
Second, why does a TVS need higher octane to obtain decent gains? (Sure a 91 octane tune will make less power than a E85 setup, again apples to apples)
I can follow the dyno charts and I can clearly see your 2.7" E85 tune is the equivelant if not faster than a 3.15" TVS but what are you really comparing? Its two COMPLETELY different setups with not a single thing in common. The best way IMO to really compare the M62 to the TVS would be to run the same pulley and same octane on both. Only then are you really seeing the difference of just the supercharger and not other variables such as fuel or pulley size...
Just my 2 cents.
First off, isn't comparing a M62 2.7" E85 vs. a TVS 3.15" pump gas putting the TVS at a disadvantage in the first place? (My thinking is apples to apples not apples to oranges... you dont compare a cobalt bolt-on to a Z06 bolt-on)
Second, why does a TVS need higher octane to obtain decent gains? (Sure a 91 octane tune will make less power than a E85 setup, again apples to apples)
I can follow the dyno charts and I can clearly see your 2.7" E85 tune is the equivelant if not faster than a 3.15" TVS but what are you really comparing? Its two COMPLETELY different setups with not a single thing in common. The best way IMO to really compare the M62 to the TVS would be to run the same pulley and same octane on both. Only then are you really seeing the difference of just the supercharger and not other variables such as fuel or pulley size...
Just my 2 cents.
10-01-2009, 04:25 PM
#33
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what he is trying to show is that with a 2.7" M62 setup on E85, you'll put down roughly the same numbers as a TVS with the stock pulley on 93...... so instead of paying $1800 for a TVS, switch to E85 and get tuned for it. save money.
am i right?
am i right?
Last edited by rallycobalt06; 10-01-2009 at 04:25 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
10-01-2009, 04:44 PM
#36
Thanks!
Oh. Put in Premium Fuel and stay out of PE. In closed loop, the car will adjust your afr based off the readings from the rear O2 sensor. Your LTFT will be way off. But under idle and cruise the car will be fine. I actually had to do it once
In open loop the car will run super rich.
IDK. I tried to figure that out but I am not that smart. Area47 might have a better idea since he made similar HP numbers on premium fuel + Meth Injection as he did on E85.
My guess would be 90/10 with a 7gph nozzle. If I am not mistaken that is what Area was running.
The E20 that is available at the Renew 85 stations where I buy my E85 is rated to 91 Octane.
You would have to retune the car to run E20. In PE/Open Loop your car would run lean.
Very much so.
It flows so much air that it can not run the same amount of timing as the M62. And probably a hole bunch of other reasons.
True. I was just sharing my results.
Not really
Here are my points.
1. You can make very nice numbers on the M62 with E85.
2. You can make much better numbers on the TVS with E85.
3. E85 is ****! If it is available in your area there is no reason not to run it.
The end.
Exactly.
In open loop the car will run super rich.
IDK. I tried to figure that out but I am not that smart. Area47 might have a better idea since he made similar HP numbers on premium fuel + Meth Injection as he did on E85.
My guess would be 90/10 with a 7gph nozzle. If I am not mistaken that is what Area was running.
Quick question. Most 93 has 10% ethenol in it. There are a couple gas stations around here that have e-20 with 20% ethenal. I havent looked but does anyone know what the octane rating is on that and would you have to have a tune to run it if it has a higher octane rating then 93?
You would have to retune the car to run E20. In PE/Open Loop your car would run lean.
I can follow the dyno charts and I can clearly see your 2.7" E85 tune is the equivelant if not faster than a 3.15" TVS but what are you really comparing? Its two COMPLETELY different setups with not a single thing in common. The best way IMO to really compare the M62 to the TVS would be to run the same pulley and same octane on both. Only then are you really seeing the difference of just the supercharger and not other variables such as fuel or pulley size...
Just my 2 cents.
Just my 2 cents.
Here are my points.
1. You can make very nice numbers on the M62 with E85.
2. You can make much better numbers on the TVS with E85.
3. E85 is ****! If it is available in your area there is no reason not to run it.
The end.
Exactly.
Last edited by ebristol; 10-01-2009 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
10-01-2009, 06:56 PM
#38
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here I go again with the dumb noob questions, but I heard ur AFR needed to be much lower to run E85. Like somewhere down near 8-9. I'm assuming from the dyno graphs and power levels and such that maybe I was told wrong, but I'm just trying to figure out what's what
10-01-2009, 07:35 PM
#41
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You gotta remember that there is more to the equation than just throwing on a smaller pulley. The TVS moves a lot more air, getting the octane up is the first step in taking advantage of all that air with more timing. I think in order to really make some serious big power on the tvs, you need a ported head and high octane (e85).
10-01-2009, 08:01 PM
#43
You gotta remember that there is more to the equation than just throwing on a smaller pulley. The TVS moves a lot more air, getting the octane up is the first step in taking advantage of all that air with more timing. I think in order to really make some serious big power on the tvs, you need a ported head and high octane (e85).
thats the big difference in the cars, put a tiny pulley on the tvs and the tq skyrockets. hell ive got 265ft lbs on my 2.8 with just reg gas, i cant wait to drop down to a 2.5.... but that will be in good time.
10-01-2009, 08:03 PM
#44
even though there is a e85 here there is not enuff stations if you need a fill. oh we dont have 93 here we have 91. if e85 is abundant here or to
the places i go 2. like lake havasu, friso, san diego and so forth.
if areas nozzle is 7gpm with 93, for 91 octane
get 8-9 gpm?
the places i go 2. like lake havasu, friso, san diego and so forth.
if areas nozzle is 7gpm with 93, for 91 octane
get 8-9 gpm?
10-01-2009, 08:23 PM
#47
E85 and Gasoline have diff stoich values but they have the same lambda values. At first I left my tune set for gasoline even though I was using E85. All you need to do is convert the gasoline afr to E85 which is easy.
I had my tune set at 11.8afr in PE. 11.8/14.7 = .80 lambda. To conver to E85 aft multiply the lambda by E85 Stoich of 9.675. 9.675 * .8 = 7.74 E85 afr.
8-9 seems pretty big. I think you would have to run something smaller or you could bog the engine depending on when you start spraying. I am not great with Meth injection. I tried for two weeks but couldn't find a cheap supply of 100% methanol so I gave up on it.
