pick your tuner wisely
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Joined: 02-01-11
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From: modesto
im not the best tuner...i do agree that an aggressive tune the car dose need to be taken care of correctly.
wen i have young kids ask for aggressive tunes i always have the pcm cut part boost at 160 iat2s...and run more wot fuel than normal..my not be the best performance but i havent had a engine blow except for my own. and it really wasn't tune related failure
wen i have young kids ask for aggressive tunes i always have the pcm cut part boost at 160 iat2s...and run more wot fuel than normal..my not be the best performance but i havent had a engine blow except for my own. and it really wasn't tune related failure
Rent me! per hour
Joined: 03-22-07
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From: Still fixing others mistakes.
Originally Posted by Area47
YOU have to say when it's enough. this is two cars that are publicly known under your hands that have blown up. YOU have to make the judgement call. YOU control the out come of the car. YOU set the playing field for the life of the motor. not the driver.
"its what the customer wants". no, it's not. you have to draw the line. i get it, things happen out of the control of others. blaming the data logger for not showing "kr" is horse ****. pull a spark plug and look at it.
i get it, **** happens. this however, was flat out destruction.
Oh yeah it was an accidental shitty aggressive tune. My bad
. Hmmm semen and eyes.hmm good quality post. You definitely raised the bar of awesomeness on CSS.net. 
lol
YOU have to say when it's enough. this is two cars that are publicly known under your hands that have blown up. YOU have to make the judgement call. YOU control the out come of the car. YOU set the playing field for the life of the motor. not the driver.
"its what the customer wants". no, it's not. you have to draw the line. i get it, things happen out of the control of others. blaming the data logger for not showing "kr" is horse ****. pull a spark plug and look at it.
i get it, **** happens. this however, was flat out destruction.
Oh yeah it was an accidental shitty aggressive tune. My bad
. Hmmm semen and eyes.hmm good quality post. You definitely raised the bar of awesomeness on CSS.net. lolnone.
you went back 5 pages to quote this for what reason? go sit in time out and think about your own personal stupidity. come at me with some worth while ****, or gtfo.
the toyota "stuck gas pedal" was caused by floor mats.
some of us have posted the point that needs to be understood. 99% of you have glazed over puppy dog eyes because your fearless leader is under attack. boo hoo.
Reading the title thread "pick your tuner wisely" has got me kinda thinking. It's actually a lot harder than you would think. Where I live there's NO ONE that has any experience with tuning Cobalts. For the last couple years a friend of mine who had a turbo LSJ had been tuning me. But never really cared to put more than like 10 logs in and sent me on my way. That's when I got my TVS I wanted to tune it right. I had my friend give me a basic set up which worked decient. But then started looking into remote tuners on here. If you actually sit down and think, how many good tuners are there in this forum? Not many. I PM'd 4 of the most talked about tuners on this site asking about remote tuning. James fired me a message back instantly ready to go, BennyHHR took almost a week to get back to me and I never heard back from the other 2. Just putting out there that finding a good, reliable tuner isn't easy at all. Atleast it isn't for me.
Reading the title thread "pick your tuner wisely" has got me kinda thinking. It's actually a lot harder than you would think. Where I live there's NO ONE that has any experience with tuning Cobalts. For the last couple years a friend of mine who had a turbo LSJ had been tuning me. But never really cared to put more than like 10 logs in and sent me on my way. That's when I got my TVS I wanted to tune it right. I had my friend give me a basic set up which worked decient. But then started looking into remote tuners on here. If you actually sit down and think, how many good tuners are there in this forum? Not many. I PM'd 4 of the most talked about tuners on this site asking about remote tuning. James fired me a message back instantly ready to go, BennyHHR took almost a week to get back to me and I never heard back from the other 2. Just putting out there that finding a good, reliable tuner isn't easy at all. Atleast it isn't for me.
also, as far as the bad gas comments, when i was stock turbo on the 30psi tune i had to full up with 89 octane gas because i was on a road trip and 89 was the highest octane available for a while. My cars still fine...
granted i didn't go WOT at all, but there was no noticeable difference in the way it drove.
Rent me! per hour
Joined: 03-22-07
Posts: 24,161
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From: Still fixing others mistakes.
Reading the title thread "pick your tuner wisely" has got me kinda thinking. It's actually a lot harder than you would think. Where I live there's NO ONE that has any experience with tuning Cobalts. For the last couple years a friend of mine who had a turbo LSJ had been tuning me. But never really cared to put more than like 10 logs in and sent me on my way. That's when I got my TVS I wanted to tune it right. I had my friend give me a basic set up which worked decient. But then started looking into remote tuners on here. If you actually sit down and think, how many good tuners are there in this forum? Not many. I PM'd 4 of the most talked about tuners on this site asking about remote tuning. James fired me a message back instantly ready to go, BennyHHR took almost a week to get back to me and I never heard back from the other 2. Just putting out there that finding a good, reliable tuner isn't easy at all. Atleast it isn't for me.
I know you're not around much Area. You don't remote tune anyways I just see you posted. Not saying I settled with James. The car made good power no question. Just saying finding good tuners isn't easy at all.
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Joined: 08-10-08
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From: a
blue is in the same boat as me.... tuners are hard to find.... even crappy ones..... everyone talks a good game but really how much exp. do they have??? then like he says you pm a reputable guy and he doesnt get back to you for weeks on end.... if they ever get back to you.... we have 3 options here.... 2 hptuners, and trifecta.... 1 guy is going through personal issues, and has no interest in tunning, the other is in austrailia, dont know if he is ever coming back..... and then that leaves me with good ol vince.... at least with vince you know what you get....
i wanna know for sure who will be the guy who will set up the tunes proper and with care..... the guy who will be available when needed.....
i wanna know for sure who will be the guy who will set up the tunes proper and with care..... the guy who will be available when needed.....
Only speaking from experience with james, ive called/texted him all hours of the day and night hes always responded and told me exactly wut i needed to do to fix my issues and has always been patient with my always changing work schedule..hes even offered to help teach me while im out here deployed..willing to do wut it takes to help u and teaches u along the way
And end up with a blown motor? That's not very sound advice to just pick up HPT and start hitting buttons and see what happens. I've learnt a lot even dealing with James with HPT. Still wouldn't just jump in and start seeing what happens when I do this or change that. I'd rather learn with a tuner as I go. I undertand the principals of things. But I have a guy that lives right by me that can do that for me. And it didn't hold a candle to James' tune.
I think the big message here is that there is no reason to tune a car to 10/10's on the street because there are too many variables that cant be controlled.
The problem is that for 90% of the people out there tuning is either beyond their capability or they are unwilling to invest the time to learn about it. Therefor most of the people buying tunes are not able to make an informed decision when offered the opportunity by the tuner.
Even some of the people who are on James side admit that they start to zone out when he starts explaining what he is doing on their tune. I'm sure the same thing happens for all the tuners so I am not saying it is completely James fault. The difference seems to be that James expects people he is tuning to be able to make a responsible decision based on his info while other tuners feel that it is there job to protect the buyer from making bad decision due to lack of knowledge.
So for instance you get tuners that will make the high and low octane tables the same so that it always runs with max timing and others who drop the low octane table down a few degrees so that if you start to heat soak or get bad gas the tune has someplace to go to save the engine if it starts to knock. I know this isnt what happened here but it is just an easy example for people to understand. Both methods are acceptable but if you have both tables the same you better have an interceptor so you can visually see the knock before something bad happens. If the customer isnt knowledgeable enough to understand why this is dangerous I think it is irresponsible on the tuners part to give them a tune like this. Yes you can say I told him it was dangerous but most people are depending on the tuner to tell them what to do.
The problem is that for 90% of the people out there tuning is either beyond their capability or they are unwilling to invest the time to learn about it. Therefor most of the people buying tunes are not able to make an informed decision when offered the opportunity by the tuner.
Even some of the people who are on James side admit that they start to zone out when he starts explaining what he is doing on their tune. I'm sure the same thing happens for all the tuners so I am not saying it is completely James fault. The difference seems to be that James expects people he is tuning to be able to make a responsible decision based on his info while other tuners feel that it is there job to protect the buyer from making bad decision due to lack of knowledge.
So for instance you get tuners that will make the high and low octane tables the same so that it always runs with max timing and others who drop the low octane table down a few degrees so that if you start to heat soak or get bad gas the tune has someplace to go to save the engine if it starts to knock. I know this isnt what happened here but it is just an easy example for people to understand. Both methods are acceptable but if you have both tables the same you better have an interceptor so you can visually see the knock before something bad happens. If the customer isnt knowledgeable enough to understand why this is dangerous I think it is irresponsible on the tuners part to give them a tune like this. Yes you can say I told him it was dangerous but most people are depending on the tuner to tell them what to do.
Term2 can tune you. If i wasnt tuned by area hed be my 2nd choice of available tuners.
also, as far as the bad gas comments, when i was stock turbo on the 30psi tune i had to full up with 89 octane gas because i was on a road trip and 89 was the highest octane available for a while. My cars still fine...
granted i didn't go WOT at all, but there was no noticeable difference in the way it drove.
also, as far as the bad gas comments, when i was stock turbo on the 30psi tune i had to full up with 89 octane gas because i was on a road trip and 89 was the highest octane available for a while. My cars still fine...
granted i didn't go WOT at all, but there was no noticeable difference in the way it drove.
blue is in the same boat as me.... tuners are hard to find.... even crappy ones..... everyone talks a good game but really how much exp. do they have??? then like he says you pm a reputable guy and he doesnt get back to you for weeks on end.... if they ever get back to you.... we have 3 options here.... 2 hptuners, and trifecta.... 1 guy is going through personal issues, and has no interest in tunning, the other is in austrailia, dont know if he is ever coming back..... and then that leaves me with good ol vince.... at least with vince you know what you get....
Senior Member
Joined: 02-01-11
Posts: 2,799
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From: modesto
I think the big message here is that there is no reason to tune a car to 10/10's on the street because there are too many variables that cant be controlled.
The problem is that for 90% of the people out there tuning is either beyond their capability or they are unwilling to invest the time to learn about it. Therefor most of the people buying tunes are not able to make an informed decision when offered the opportunity by the tuner.
Even some of the people who are on James side admit that they start to zone out when he starts explaining what he is doing on their tune. I'm sure the same thing happens for all the tuners so I am not saying it is completely James fault. The difference seems to be that James expects people he is tuning to be able to make a responsible decision based on his info while other tuners feel that it is there job to protect the buyer from making bad decision due to lack of knowledge.
So for instance you get tuners that will make the high and low octane tables the same so that it always runs with max timing and others who drop the low octane table down a few degrees so that if you start to heat soak or get bad gas the tune has someplace to go to save the engine if it starts to knock. I know this isnt what happened here but it is just an easy example for people to understand. Both methods are acceptable but if you have both tables the same you better have an interceptor so you can visually see the knock before something bad happens. If the customer isnt knowledgeable enough to understand why this is dangerous I think it is irresponsible on the tuners part to give them a tune like this. Yes you can say I told him it was dangerous but most people are depending on the tuner to tell them what to do.
The problem is that for 90% of the people out there tuning is either beyond their capability or they are unwilling to invest the time to learn about it. Therefor most of the people buying tunes are not able to make an informed decision when offered the opportunity by the tuner.
Even some of the people who are on James side admit that they start to zone out when he starts explaining what he is doing on their tune. I'm sure the same thing happens for all the tuners so I am not saying it is completely James fault. The difference seems to be that James expects people he is tuning to be able to make a responsible decision based on his info while other tuners feel that it is there job to protect the buyer from making bad decision due to lack of knowledge.
So for instance you get tuners that will make the high and low octane tables the same so that it always runs with max timing and others who drop the low octane table down a few degrees so that if you start to heat soak or get bad gas the tune has someplace to go to save the engine if it starts to knock. I know this isnt what happened here but it is just an easy example for people to understand. Both methods are acceptable but if you have both tables the same you better have an interceptor so you can visually see the knock before something bad happens. If the customer isnt knowledgeable enough to understand why this is dangerous I think it is irresponsible on the tuners part to give them a tune like this. Yes you can say I told him it was dangerous but most people are depending on the tuner to tell them what to do.
It's not the "flooring it in 5th gear" that causes the issues, it's the "flooring it at a low RPM" that causes the issues. The reason 5th gear usually gets thrown in there is because it takes a lot longer to get out of the low RPMs when floored in 5th versus say 2nd gear. It puts a lot more stress on the engine when at low RPMs. There is a reason a clutch might slip at low RPMs, but be able to hold fine in the upper RPMs. Powell even said that lugging the engine at low RPMs (like 2k RPM) builds a lot of heat. When the valves heat up, they start coking up with carbon and after time the engine can lose compression and have other issues. Plus its a 4 cylinder engine, it is firing a lot less at 2k RPM than a V8 would be at 2k RPM.
I've admitted repeatedly to not knowing how to tune, but it is my understanding that there is a table (or more than one) with a bunch of cells in it, and when load increases or decreases, the cell being used as input or output to the ignition or fuel or whatever, changes. So when I floor it, the pcm reads what the tps, ect, vss, iat are (using those as example only), shifts cells accordingly, and delivers fuel and timing that I have told it to through the "tune". If this is correct, wouldn't ANY conscientious tuner know that those high load cells are the ones where detonation is likely to occur, and adjust output accordingly?
or, am I WAY off base here, and it's accepted practice to put those high load cells right on the edge of engine damage, and then tell the driver "drive NICE, don't ever put the car in those high load cells !
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Joined: 08-10-08
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From: a
What do you mean you know what you get with Vince? There is really no way of logging, and you have to rely on him and his judgement (which can sometime be a while to get a responce back from what I have seen). I considered the Trifecta route at once time, but it seems just like any other canned tune. Which can run great on some car, and not so much so on others
eh... my question got lost in the answers. I understand load, and how that effects heat, and how heat effects detonation...my question was / is do some tuners tune and ignore this very phenomenon?
I've admitted repeatedly to not knowing how to tune, but it is my understanding that there is a table (or more than one) with a bunch of cells in it, and when load increases or decreases, the cell being used as input or output to the ignition or fuel or whatever, changes. So when I floor it, the pcm reads what the tps, ect, vss, iat are (using those as example only), shifts cells accordingly, and delivers fuel and timing that I have told it to through the "tune". If this is correct, wouldn't ANY conscientious tuner know that those high load cells are the ones where detonation is likely to occur, and adjust output accordingly?
or, am I WAY off base here, and it's accepted practice to put those high load cells right on the edge of engine damage, and then tell the driver "drive NICE, don't ever put the car in those high load cells !
I've admitted repeatedly to not knowing how to tune, but it is my understanding that there is a table (or more than one) with a bunch of cells in it, and when load increases or decreases, the cell being used as input or output to the ignition or fuel or whatever, changes. So when I floor it, the pcm reads what the tps, ect, vss, iat are (using those as example only), shifts cells accordingly, and delivers fuel and timing that I have told it to through the "tune". If this is correct, wouldn't ANY conscientious tuner know that those high load cells are the ones where detonation is likely to occur, and adjust output accordingly?
or, am I WAY off base here, and it's accepted practice to put those high load cells right on the edge of engine damage, and then tell the driver "drive NICE, don't ever put the car in those high load cells !
I would just like to say that this thread has definitely turned into a good read for everyone. Granted there has been quite a bit of bicker, name calling and other rather unnecessary things said, but this is definitely good for everyone as a group. The information from Area, mrbelvedere, 06blackg85ss, and Chevycobaltss3 is tremendous regardless of how you want to look at this particular situation.
I have only recently started assisted with tuning (Gremlin85 and I have a local shop in Lowell MA) but the amount of knowledge I have gained from all 4 of these members has been invaluable. This situation appears to just be an error judgement call on both parties. The customer can only have so much blame as well as the tuner.
I think education of the consumer is key in prolonging engine life as well as educating them on what exactly is being done to the car. I try to explain to anyone that comes in exactly what is going on fundamentally with the vehicle with each piece they are putting on their vehicles as well as what is happening with each portion of the tuning process. If the customer decides to disregards warnings or does not care to proceed as requested, we do not tune them flat out. Even when they do complete all the modifications necessary, if they installed parts without the proper supporting mods and required a tune, you still need to factor in a section of error.
Essentially you need to make sure that you can throw that penny into a hole each time you get on it
If you make the hole (_________________________________________________ ________) it's easier on everything than if you make the hole (__________)
Sure making the hole smaller gets your better results but what happens when you miss it?
I don't like reading about inquisitions on people but when certain people get into a thread and start discussing the problem, good info for everyone gets out there and for that I would like to thank everyone contributing positively
I have only recently started assisted with tuning (Gremlin85 and I have a local shop in Lowell MA) but the amount of knowledge I have gained from all 4 of these members has been invaluable. This situation appears to just be an error judgement call on both parties. The customer can only have so much blame as well as the tuner.
I think education of the consumer is key in prolonging engine life as well as educating them on what exactly is being done to the car. I try to explain to anyone that comes in exactly what is going on fundamentally with the vehicle with each piece they are putting on their vehicles as well as what is happening with each portion of the tuning process. If the customer decides to disregards warnings or does not care to proceed as requested, we do not tune them flat out. Even when they do complete all the modifications necessary, if they installed parts without the proper supporting mods and required a tune, you still need to factor in a section of error.
Essentially you need to make sure that you can throw that penny into a hole each time you get on it
If you make the hole (_________________________________________________ ________) it's easier on everything than if you make the hole (__________)
Sure making the hole smaller gets your better results but what happens when you miss it?
I don't like reading about inquisitions on people but when certain people get into a thread and start discussing the problem, good info for everyone gets out there and for that I would like to thank everyone contributing positively
Senior Member
Joined: 02-23-09
Posts: 555
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From: colorado
if your gonna complain about your car blowing up because you wanted to go fast then dont mod your car because even stock cars blow due to tune if you cant pay to play then dont play. I know a couple of cars that have blown on trifecta, zzp, ccss3, and im sure there are others. it happens to the best of them, how many race cars blow up they have payed tuners for the racecars. They blow up the dont point fingers, they paid to play if you cant come to terms with that then dont mod and race your car.
Senior Member
Joined: 08-06-08
Posts: 3,405
Likes: 7
From: Federal Way
who's nuts am i swining from?
none.
you went back 5 pages to quote this for what reason? go sit in time out and think about your own personal stupidity. come at me with some worth while ****, or gtfo.
the toyota "stuck gas pedal" was caused by floor mats.
some of us have posted the point that needs to be understood. 99% of you have glazed over puppy dog eyes because your fearless leader is under attack. boo hoo.
none.
you went back 5 pages to quote this for what reason? go sit in time out and think about your own personal stupidity. come at me with some worth while ****, or gtfo.
the toyota "stuck gas pedal" was caused by floor mats.
some of us have posted the point that needs to be understood. 99% of you have glazed over puppy dog eyes because your fearless leader is under attack. boo hoo.
2) Flat out destruction as you said, to me seems like you was saying that he tuned the car for str8t up destruction....thats how it came across to me as I read it hence it quoted it. Thats why I was like lets see the deliberate tune. Someone said no one said it was deliberate. I quoted to what seems to me as you stating it was deliberate. You commnunicated something and thats how interpet it. Communications 101.
3) I have no qualms with you. Personally I think you did a good job on Darts car and another in here talked highly of your tune. I respect you as a tuner. I even said earlier that if one of the guys who you tuned backs you up if something like this happened and your name came up, nothing would be wrong with them backing you up and a matter of fact they should.
4) You talking about stupidity o_O, you me called stupid cause of???????? If you read the posts and followed it carefully and connect the dam dots since your the so smart one you would have seen where I is going with it; why I had went back 5 pages to quote (see #2). But apparently you somehow got butt hurt, came out swinging and tried to say something witty??...I dont know.. maybe clever. "Go sit in timeout and go think about it" LoL!! GTFOOH. That **** is hilarious.... I dont get riled up like some of these "youngins" in here and def dont got the time to stoop to your level that you trying to be at the moment. Im way above that. Like you say, come at me with some worth while **** cause your **** was way less worth while than mine was. I will say though just because you can tune a car dont make you any smarter than me or even half the folks on this forum.
And dont act like you not a fearsome leader for some people. You know you have a fan club as well so dont trip. If you didnt you wouldnt have repeat customers or people praising your tune. brand loyalty=fan club. Take pride in that **** like you customers take pride in being tuned by you.
Last edited by alerosaint; Oct 15, 2012 at 06:01 PM.
Senior Member
Joined: 06-03-07
Posts: 24,270
Likes: 1
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
if your gonna complain about your car blowing up because you wanted to go fast then dont mod your car because even stock cars blow due to tune if you cant pay to play then dont play. I know a couple of cars that have blown on trifecta, zzp, ccss3, and im sure there are others. it happens to the best of them, how many race cars blow up they have payed tuners for the racecars. They blow up the dont point fingers, they paid to play if you cant come to terms with that then dont mod and race your car.
Rent me! per hour
Joined: 03-22-07
Posts: 24,161
Likes: 20
From: Still fixing others mistakes.
i started doing this around 1996. how else are you going to learn without picking up the tools and doing it yourself. you can only read and sit behind the person doing it for so long. no it's not easy. if you can understand a motor and how it works in the basics of it all, you can tune your own car.
if you don't want to learn, thats fine. no harm no foul.
you want to build a car to be an extension of your personality. tuning it you YOUR liking is much more than just making power and being fast. you tailor the vehicle to your driving style.
if you don't want to learn, thats fine. no harm no foul.
you want to build a car to be an extension of your personality. tuning it you YOUR liking is much more than just making power and being fast. you tailor the vehicle to your driving style.