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I would never weld them in and go through all that hassle until I knew for a fact that it was gonna run that fast. Honestly I seriously doubt you will be in the 7's. Low 9's maybe, but I wouldn't worry about it. See how fast it is first and then run up against your limit for the cage. Guys do it all the time. You don't have to shoot for the moon right now, plenty of time to change it down the road. I know a lot guys running full on v8 drag cars with nos or turbos that can't even get to a 9.00.
I second run it with the cage in it and see where you end up. At the least you'll be able to work on your 1/8 mile if the car is fast enough to need a 7.5second cage. That will also allow you to enjoy the car some, and keep your finish date closer than pushing it further out.
I would never weld them in and go through all that hassle until I knew for a fact that it was gonna run that fast. Honestly I seriously doubt you will be in the 7's. Low 9's maybe, but I wouldn't worry about it. See how fast it is first and then run up against your limit for the cage. Guys do it all the time. You don't have to shoot for the moon right now, plenty of time to change it down the road. I know a lot guys running full on v8 drag cars with nos or turbos that can't even get to a 9.00.
Im not concerned about making it to the 7s as curb weight with me in the car is only going to be 2300 lbs. All of parts are designed for utilizing as much of the horsepower created by the race prepped 427 cid motor and the V7 YSI-B. On top of that the chassis is built to get all of that horsepower to the ground while keeping traction.
Originally Posted by ECaulk
I second run it with the cage in it and see where you end up. At the least you'll be able to work on your 1/8 mile if the car is fast enough to need a 7.5second cage. That will also allow you to enjoy the car some, and keep your finish date closer than pushing it further out.
i hear both of you about running what I have especially to get a baseline with all that I have. I also dont like putting it all together just to tear it apart to start changing things. Its not so simple to modify the cage as NHRA as strict rules about modifying a certified roll cage.
Having said all of that, moving forward without all of the added cost and time of adding to the cage is very appealing to me. As it has been said to me, 8.5 is still a fast time..
at this point i would agree with getting the cage certified to 8.50 and forget making the changes at this point. ive been around drag racing my whole life, i can tell you its gonna take you at least a season to get to the point where you will need the cage upgraded. its gonna take you time to get licenced and get comfortable in the car, along with getting the chassis ironed out. i have no doubt that it will be capable of making the power to run 7.50, but it takes time to get there. after you have run the car for a while and had some satisfaction, then make the changes. i understand not wanting to have to redo work, however in a race car you always making changes, and adding bars into a cage isnt really going backwards.
there is also the whole thing of if you actually are going to be comfortable going faster. people who havent done it will laugh, but if your not comfy going those speeds, you dont take the car to that next level. i helped put a car together about 10 years ago for a racer i knew. he bought a retired warren johnson pro-stock car, he drove it as an 8 second comp eliminator car and decided to take it to the next level. we helped him with an older blown BAE hemi, essentially a top alcohol funny car engine from the mid 90s, along with a crower clutch and a lenco. by the time he finished licencing it was clear he was scared of the car. the last pass he shut it off at 1000', it coasted through with 7.20 at 197 mph. we were sure that with a couple slight tune up changes the car could have gone a 6.60-6.70, but we never got a chance to, he took the car home parked it for a year, then sold it.
Thanks for all of the feed back guys, I appreciate it. I have thought this over and I am choosing to move forward without modifying the cage at this time. I'll ask the NHRA what the process is to do this at a later time. The added cost right now is better spent on getting the project to the street/track . I do know that 8.5 is fast and it will take a some additional setup to get the shorter wheel base to play nice at those speeds. As mentioned before in this thread we managed to stretch the wheel base from 103" to 104.5" which is still .5" shorter than the desired 105" wheel base. I am to much of a rookie to completely appreciate how much that .5" still makes this shorter wheel base a bit more snarly on the drag strip.
As for the need to know whether or not I am going to be comfortable going those speeds that my car I have already learnt that. When Resnick was still working on the project he said the same thing, that it was going to take some time to learn how to be able to drive at these speeds. Just because I had driven fast my whole driving life Resnick said it was going to take more time than I probably wanted it to. After that I paid to go to the NHRA's authorized drag racing school down in Gainesville, Florida. Over the course of 2 days we were taught the fundamentals needed to drive a 700HP Pro-Mod car. With in the first 2 hours we were strapped in and ready to make pass. The passes were incremental starting at 200', 600', 1,000' and finally 1,320'.The first day I made 4 passes. When I did the 600' pass I thought to myself afterwards, 'did I make a mistake building my car?'. My car was going to be faster than the Pro-Mod car that what I was learning on. You see I had never lined up at a drag strip before, never. That was my first time. The last run of the day was the 1,000' run. When I did my burnout it was perfect. The car filled with smoke and I could taste the rubber. Then I launched the car for a run that I want to say was awesome. In fact it was my best reaction time of the day .098. When that run was done I no longer had a shred of doubt that this was for me. Even to this day when I think of my time on the track I smile from ear to ear. Those of you that race will know what I mean. I'm posting up my timeslips from the course. In fact I had so much fun I paid for an extra run because I loved it so much. When you look at the slips keep in mind that this was done in a very short time, from rookie to NHRA licence for 7.5 seconds in the quarter mile. There was one guy at the course who discovered that it was too fast for him and he dropped out the first day there so I know that this power/speed isn't for everyone. You should of seen Resnick's face when I came back from the course and showed him my license.
I know that when the car goes to the track that I will be doing the exact same procedure with starting off with shorter runs to get the suspension dialed in. I won't just be doing the setup by myself. I know a company that I will hire that specializes in tuning race suspensions at the track on a test and tune day and dial in the suspension as we take the car through some shorter runs to ensure it's safety prior to doing complete runs. After the suspension is properly setup then I will be doing the required runs to renew my NHRA license which is all I need because I have already been licensed for 7.5 seconds.
Timeslips from drag racing school, from left to right. Drag Racing School Certificate
Nice, I didn't know you had already done the school, that's cool!
Starting slow is great because it takes a little bit of experience to react to the car, especially at the top end. Plus you won't get bored to quick.
Nice, I didn't know you had already done the school, that's cool!
Doing the training was really cool and for anyone who wants the experience of big HP without building a car I say 'do the course, it's awesome'. One day I'll spend the money and go to NASCAR training at Dale Earnhardt's school because I hear it's awesome too.
Originally Posted by 63 Nova SS
Starting slow is great because it takes a little bit of experience to react to the car, especially at the top end. Plus you won't get bored to quick.
Learning will always be an on going thing and I agree that there is plenty things that someone is only going to learn with seat time behind the wheel. I've wanted to do this for a long time so I can't imagine getting board.
Last edited by victory_red_SS; 10-03-2018 at 06:54 AM.
i will say, there is a lot of difference between 9.0s and 7.50, but your on the right track.
as for upgrading the cage later, all you have to do is make the necessary changes and have it certified for 7.50, its not a real big deal. the chassis has to be recertified every 2 years anyways.
I have been told to expect that difference between 9's and 7's which is why I plan to do incremental runs when I finally get to the track. It worked well at drag school so I'll follow the same program. I look forward to finally being able to experience those differences for myself and the smile that going down the drag strip in my own car will bring.
What kind of fab do you need Rod? Just the floor cut out so the guy can weld the tubes to the chassis rail and then put the floor back together? I can do that.
What kind of fab do you need Rod? Just the floor cut out so the guy can weld the tubes to the chassis rail and then put the floor back together? I can do that.
Hi Deej, glad to see you are still around. What he needs is the floor cut away as he is concerned about cutting into the rectangle tubes that make up the chassis/frame. He also wants to have the tubes cut/coped to fit as the kit is universal so all the tubes are long. He admits that he's a really good welder but his fabrication skills leave a bit to be desired.
I am happy to have your help if you have some time.
I can get hold of a tube notching jig to cope the tubes. I have a variety of tools of mass destruction to get the floor out of the way. Send me your phone number dan@hot4x4.ca I don't have yours anymore
I have a bit of an update that I have held of on while I waited for some information from a couple of the companies I am working with. During the time I have been accumulating parts and planning what I can do to keep moving forward. Just a heads up, this is just a final mock up with a dummy block, this is not my LSX motor, more news on that later on.
I have had many one step forward and then wait for new/missing/correct parts. One of the parts that I needed to change was the drysump pump from ARE. This new pump is a 4-stage pump that still uses the LS1 pan that I previously bought from ARE. The pump uses an HTD system (cog style belt) with a collet for tightening on the pump shaft. From there I had an issue getting the ATI Damper hub for the Vortech to line up to the pulley on the drysump pump. ARE didnt have a solution, ATI didnt have a solution and ATI was way to busy to make me a custom hub. I finally managed to get the right hub from another customer of my engine builder, the same guy who built a LS motor with the same supercharger. The only thing I need now is a slightly longer belt for the pulley.
I ordered the alternator with bracket/pulleys/tensioner/bolts that were on the 2013 Camaro because it didnt use a power steering pump, just like my setup. The problem was it wasnt lining up with my water pump. I ended up exchanging the Corvette style water pump for Mezieres electric water pump. When the pump arrived, I was stoked, so after a long day at work I went to install the Meziere pump. Guess what it didnt line up either. I needed to get the 1.75 spacers from Meziere so I placed my order. When it arrived back down stairs to do the install and guess what I discovered? Meziere sells me 1.75 spacers but they dont ship the longer bolts needed. In fact, they dont even sell the longer bolts period. Off to a hardware store the next day and buy some bolts. Went home and installed the pump and then it was time for the serpentine belt to go on. AND GUESS WHAT FREAKING HAPPENED?
It fit. All of the waiting and more waiting and watching it all line up was a sweet thing.
Dressed mock engine
Next up, installing the custom motor mount to see if the new drysump pump fit, it didnt. While one area was close there was still the issue of a proper fit and having the fittings all line up. So, I thought lets see how close it was. Here is how close it was.
Drysump mounting
Here is my slight butchering mod to see what I needed to do. At this point I thought I was looking at getting front/rear engine plates to use as motor mounts.
Motor mount modification for drysump pump
motor mount modification for drysump pump
The surprise came yesterday when the owner of a fabrication shop came to the house to look over the project and he said he can make the mount work with some enhancement to the remaining supports. I admit I liked hearing that.
After I had that all done, I needed to find out the burning question, will the S/C fit in my engine bay because I dont quite have the same space as a 2013 Camaro. So, I mounted this beauty
Mounted S/C
Keep in mind I am mounting all of these components using minimal bolts, so I dont have to dismantle everything when something doesnt work out. I mean, its not like things ever go sideways for me, right? Here is the modified motor mount waiting for the engine to be put in place.
Here was my first sideways issue, the anchor point, for part of the body parts. Good thing that was designed to be moved and it was two small bolts.
Next issue, this looks a bit tight from this angle!
It looks even worse from this angle as neither the water pump or S/C are clearing.
Oops, this doesn't fit.
Lesson learnt that day was the engine cant be dressed before I lower it into the engine bay, so I started to remove the water pump and S/C. The upside is the fabricator is going to modify the front support area so that it is removable to allow the engine to be re & reed without undressing everything. I am glad I didnt use all the bolts for the install. Another part of the problem is where the engine sits, which is far back as the firewall Lesson was pushed back. Here is the engine now being lower into the engine bay.
Oops, this doesn't fit either. Nor does this fit.
The engine is almost in place but now I have a clearance issue with the shaft on the steering rack. Keep in mind that I chose the stock alternator and bracket from the 2013 Camaro to keep everything lined up with the Vortech kit that I bought.
Shaft on steering rack issues.
The good news is the fabricator has several ideas that hes going to try, and he is confident that he can make it work.
Now that the engine is almost set on the motor mount, I need to answer that burning question, will the S/C clear the tube for the roll cage
S/C doesn't fit either.
No, it doesnt fit so Im thinking, this sucks. So, I talked to Jim at Richmond engines and he said that its simple cut the tube, the fabricator will deal with it. Jim didnt have to tell me twice.
Roll cage tube isn't in the way anymore.
Keep in mind I am mounting all of these components using minimal bolts, so I dont have to dismantle everything when something doesnt work out. I mean, its not like things ever go sideways for me, right? Here is the modified motor mount waiting for the engine to be put in place.
Here was my first sideways issue, the anchor point, for part of the body parts. Good thing that was designed to be moved and it was two small bolts.
Next issue, this looks a bit tight from this angle!
Darn, it doesn't fit.
Crap, it looks tight from this angle too.
Darn, this doesn't fit either.
It looks even worse from this angle as neither the water pump or S/C are clearing.
Oops, this doesn't fit.
Lesson learnt that day was the engine cant be dressed before I lower it into the engine bay, so I started to remove the water pump and S/C. The upside is the fabricator is going to modify the front support area so that it is removable to allow the engine to be re & reed without undressing everything. I am glad I didnt use all the bolts for the install. Another part of the problem is where the engine sits, which is far back as the firewall Lesson was pushed back. Here is the engine now being lower into the engine bay.
Oops, this doesn't fit either. Nor does this fit.
The engine is almost in place but now I have a clearance issue with the shaft on the steering rack. Keep in mind that I chose the stock alternator and bracket from the 2013 Camaro to keep everything lined up with the Vortech kit that I bought.
Shaft on steering rack issues.
The good news is the fabricator has several ideas that hes going to try, and he is confident that he can make it work.
Now that the engine is almost set on the motor mount, I need to answer that burning question, will the S/C clear the tube for the roll cage
S/C doesn't fit either.
No, it doesnt fit so Im thinking, this sucks. So, I talked to Jim at Richmond engines and he said that its simple cut the tube, the fabricator will deal with it. Jim didnt have to tell me twice.
The next step was to mount the S/C so I could see how the charge tubing was going to fit in the space I have. It turns out that it didnt like being at 3 oclock because the tubing was to close to the wheel and steering was going to be completely compromised, so I had to re-clock the S/C. I cant say I was too thrilled, with taking apart the S/C but, after a call to Vortech and talking to a technician I was ready to do what he told me to do. It turns out that it is really easy to clock this S/C. This picture gives you a close up of the impeller of this S/C and I think it looks like a work of art. There is also a picture of where the tube needs to sit to clear the tire.
S/C impeller S/C impeller S/C clocking
Here is a picture of the clearance between my water pump/S/C and my radiator. Plenty of room for my electric fan(s) but not enough room for my drysump oil tank which will be remotely mounted in the backseat area of my car.
Griffin Radiator position
Next is the air to air cooler from Vortech which has big 3 outlets. Because of the space between the intercooler and the radiator I am considering another, fan(s) for the intercooler. I will consult with people who have more knowledge than I do. What would be your opinion Sharkey?
Next up is a few pictures of some of the supporting components for the HP this car will make. There is the Wilson LS7 intake, the Brodix BR 7 BS 300-B cylinder heads (there is a pic of the valve train specs too) and the Holley 105mm throttle body. On top of the heads I have GM Performance LSX valve covers (the victory red LSX was my doing) which are no longer sold by GM. Looking at the pictures and you can get a good idea of how far back the engine sits. You can also see why I chose the Wilson intake because it fits the space that I have, and it is rated for 1500HP+.
Valve specs. Wilson intake, Holley 105mm throttle body. Wilson intake, Holley 105mm throttle bodt, Brodix heads Wilson LS7 intake, Brodix BP BR 7 BS 300 heads, Holley 105mm throttle body headers, Brodix BP BR 7 BS 300, GM Performance valve covers.
There are also a couple of pictures of the charge piping, but I still need to buy some additional piping to get everything to line up in my engine bay.
The next couple of pictures I took yesterday. I still have to solder the connections. I am going to use the weather pack connections that I scavenged from the original wiring from my car. I am not very experienced doing the soldering so if any of you have good advice/instructions, I am all ears.
Gauges. Gauges. I have many other parts that I havent add to my picture files. I have all of the wiring harnesses needed to complete the Holley Dominator EFI system. I also have nearly 95% of all parts that bolt to the engine. All internal parts are being bought by the engine builder. At this point I have pre-paid Jim $18,000. for building the engine Including all of my time painting his shop at the beginning of the year and this doesnt include all of those external components that I have bought from JEGS. I have had people ask me why I would pre-pay when everyone else ripped me off in the past. The answer is simple, Richmond Racing Engines is a reputable shop and I have seen his work from the engines being built as well as when they are run on the engine dyno. All, of his work is top notch and he has a long reputation for being honest. Jim evens supports street legal racing by paying the top prize at the 604 Street Legal drag racing series. That means a lot to me. Jim has also referred me to Dwain from Kremyr Racing, the fabrication shop that is going to do the many things that I do not have the skills to do. That work includes the engine mount, the steering rack issues, completing the headers the last guy started, mounting the radiator and intercooler, making a new fuel cell to fit in conjunction with the wheelie bars, the parachute mount, the front support modification and the funny cage bars to allow for a 7.5 second certification. We talked about possibly doing the funny cage bars later and his opinion was that if the car can run that time then we do the bars now not later. Dwain also has a body shop that can deal with my front fenders/body kit that needs to be adjusted to make up for changing the wheel base from 103 to 104.5 which was an issue. I have a certain amount $$ set aside and I will be working my ass off so I will have the rest when its time to pay. The good/bad news is that Dwain cant start until the beginning of July. Bad news because of the delay, good news because it allows me to do the work that I can perform so that we are (fingers crossed) ready to have this car make it to the race track this year. I have worked long hours this past year and Im going further into debt to finish this project because I am too stupid/stubborn to quit, you choose which one it is.
Last edited by victory_red_SS; 03-26-2019 at 04:15 AM.
Can't wait to see the final product! Hope it comes through this year
I've told my wife that I'm going to push for this year at the track and that means lots of time spent in the garage and lots more $$$ going into the project so it makes all of the pain worth it.
lookin good man, finally gettin down the final stretch,
maybe (as I've said for the last few years lol) I'll actually get my ls based car out this year. cobalt is gone, so at least I won't be fixing something on that every weekend
but it's in the hands of a friend (you remember the kid chris that came up to canada with me all those years ago) and should be back on the road soon, though greatly detuned....
apparently 730whp is too much for the street in a cobalt..... wasn't for me lmao.
lookin good man, finally gettin down the final stretch,
Thanks Paul, as you know it's been a long time coming to get to this point.
Originally Posted by 06blackg85ss
though greatly detuned....
apparently 730whp is too much for the street in a cobalt..... wasn't for me lmao.
I remember Chris. I even remember you bringing your Cobalt to that get together. How much HP is Chris comfortable with where he won't kill himself driving it? Different HP levels for different people. In Chris' defence you got to incrementally where it was all one when he bought your car.
10-01-2018, 06:10 AM
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