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Why dont ecotecs perform better with cams

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Why dont ecotecs perform better with cams

Old 01-16-2015, 09:29 AM
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Why dont ecotecs perform better with cams

The variable geometry follower of the ecotec is a result of where the cam and follower join together vs lash adjuster to valve fulcrum points. I have never been able to find the base ratio(i assume 1.5 to 1) but the ending ratio at full cam lift is 1.69 to 1 . The stock valve train is based off of x amount of oil pressure for x amount of spring pressure

GM Ecotec Bolt-Ons - Cams And A Blower Make A 370 HP Mini Killer - Hot Rod Magazine

The Exh lash adjuster has to support the weight of the follower and the up force of the valve spring and it has to be able to withstand the pressure of the valve being shoved open through post combustion pressure. so the exhaust lash adjuster has to do 500x the work of the intake lash adjuster. The exhaust lash adjuster with stock springs @ 18lbs or more pounds of boost will start collapsing

The Intake lash adjuster just like the Exh lash adjuster has to support the weight of the follower and the up pressure of the valve spring but it doesent have to get shoved through post combustion pressure. The intake valve actualy gets help opening up through the positive pressure from the blower or snail so it has a much easier job then the exhaust lash adjuster
Now ALOT OF PEOPLE for years has said the Exhaust side of the head is the BIGGEST BOTTLE NECK that we need to deal with and they were somewhat right into reffering to the port. the port is part of the problem BUT the EXH lash adjuster is the main culprit as to why the ecotec makes lack luster power no matter what lift and duration you use. As explained above the Exh lash adjuster has HUGE LOAD to handle and in this article is the given time frame of the testing being done i think they figured it out but in typical fashon the testing team dident let them be privy to all they figured out.

GM Racing Ecotec Engine - Birth Of The Ultimate Import Fighter? - Turbo Magazine

So along with my dissapoint on the rollers and that article got me digging and calling and talking with those in the know now they gave me a little here and there but still wouldent give me the golden answer i had to figure it out and once i did it was confirmed by Shaver Specialties and Ray Bates. what ends up happening as said above . The stock valve train is based off of x amount of oil pressure for x amount of spring pressure. When checked @ an installed Height of 1.300 the stock spring showed 52lbs seat pressure @ .395 in lift the spring showed around 65lbs. So with that given info you can hurt performance by running stiffer springs you can actualy start collapsing the Exh lash adjuster loosing lift and duration. the more air and fuel you shove you start collapsing the Exh lash adj and then there goes lift and duration and eventually you will start breaking lash adjusters due to them bottoming out. It does not matter what generation lash adjuster you are using. They have tried shimming the lash adjuster but they failed from fatigue in the end to make the power they did they ran hyd lash adjuster on the intake and a solid on the exhaust. I dont agree with running a setup like that i feel it leaves power on the table.

The next thing you need to worry about is the angle of the follower the greater the lift the the steeper angle you get on the follower. If the angle gets to steep with the follower the easier it is to kick the follower of the lash adjuster and that goes with hyd or solid setups. Once you get to that point you either have to modify the follower for the lash adjuster to set deeper in the follower or get a different follower with a deeper pocket for the lash adjuster.
if you decide to get your cams reground you will have to know how much material is removed so you can figure out how much to add to the valve length and lash adjuster length the ratio is 1 3/4 to 1 dont ask me how to figure that out in relation to the cam base circle

Ray Bates, Shaver Specialties, gave up some info on thus Josh and Alan done some digging Tj also had input in this

Last edited by mrbelvedere; 01-16-2015 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 01-16-2015, 09:35 AM
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This applies to LSJs not LNFs right? (I know the section we are in but it says "ecotecs" which could mean them all)
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Old 01-16-2015, 09:43 AM
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well cosidering they all use the same valve train parts yes it does
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Old 01-16-2015, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by mrbelvedere View Post
well cosidering they all use the same valve train parts yes it does
I have seen gains (or rather losses) in 60-100 times with with ZZPs S1 cams on the LNFs. About 0.5 second faster 60-100 times consistantly with no tune changes and an otherwise stock engine. Boost drops 2-3 psi indicating better VE and it allows me to crank the wg duty cycle up a bit more (to bring boost back up 2-3 psi) in most cases and get around another 0.5 second off the 60-100 time.
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Old 01-16-2015, 09:54 AM
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very good article
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Old 01-16-2015, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Terminator2 View Post
I have seen gains (or rather losses) in 60-100 times with with ZZPs S1 cams on the LNFs. About 0.5 second faster 60-100 times consistantly with no tune changes and an otherwise stock engine. Boost drops 2-3 psi indicating better VE and it allows me to crank the wg duty cycle up a bit more (to bring boost back up 2-3 psi) in most cases and get around another 0.5 second off the 60-100 time.
The title of the thread is a little misleading, hes trying to express that ecotec's dont respond effectively to cams because of the valve train. Sure you can see gains with bigger cams, but there are seemingly big limitations with the way the valve train operates with the hydraulic lash adjusters.
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Old 01-16-2015, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Spawne32 View Post
The title of the thread is a little misleading, hes trying to express that ecotec's dont respond effectively to cams because of the valve train. Sure you can see gains with bigger cams, but there are seemingly big limitations with the way the valve train operates with the hydraulic lash adjusters.
you are correct these engines do not pick up tq/hp as they should on a cam change they all seem to just pick up 15-20hp and that is sad just shoving more air in is not the answer and the people who developed the race engines new it
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Old 01-16-2015, 10:13 AM
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Good stuff John. Looks like you've been doing your homework!
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Old 01-16-2015, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Spawne32 View Post
The title of the thread is a little misleading, hes trying to express that ecotec's dont respond effectively to cams because of the valve train. Sure you can see gains with bigger cams, but there are seemingly big limitations with the way the valve train operates with the hydraulic lash adjusters.
Understood. I should have read the article in the link first.
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Old 01-16-2015, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by riceburner View Post
So is there kind of a way around these issues? Good read but im not savvy enough to fully understand. Appreciate the insight from you john and everyone else involved in the findings.
solid lash adjusters
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Old 01-16-2015, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by riceburner View Post
So is there kind of a way around these issues? Good read but im not savvy enough to fully understand. Appreciate the insight from you john and everyone else involved in the findings.
Pretty much the cam lobe is compressing the hydraulic lifter instead of the valvespring because the lifter is easier to compress, therefore losing lift and power.
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Old 01-16-2015, 01:10 PM
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dont forget post combstion pressure also on the exh side
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Old 01-16-2015, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Slowbalt2000 View Post
Pretty much the cam lobe is compressing the hydraulic lifter instead of the valvespring because the lifter is easier to compress, therefore losing lift and power.
Heavier than stock valvesprings typically run with aftermarket cams will make this issue even worse it seems.
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Old 01-16-2015, 01:24 PM
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heavier then stock springs period will make it worse
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Old 01-16-2015, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mrbelvedere View Post
heavier then stock springs period will make it worse
That is what I meant.
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Old 01-16-2015, 01:46 PM
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has any research been done regarding alleviating this problem some by increasing oil pressure by shimming the relief spring on the pump, or changing oil viscosity/weight?
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Old 01-16-2015, 01:48 PM
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Sticky!!!

Yes and im very excited to get my solids installed

You may want to descibe the necessity of the machining to install the solids
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Old 01-16-2015, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Spawne32 View Post
has any research been done regarding alleviating this problem some by increasing oil pressure by shimming the relief spring on the pump, or changing oil viscosity/weight?
i looked into it and the lifter is just to small to handle the abuse

Originally Posted by JapEatr View Post
Sticky!!!

Yes and im very excited to get my solids installed

You may want to descibe the necessity of the machining to install the solids
i will when i go setup a head with them
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Old 01-16-2015, 02:58 PM
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Good stuff John.
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Old 01-16-2015, 03:19 PM
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This thread is interesting to my interests.

With any luck, we'll actually start making good power with cam swaps after MrB's experiment!
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Old 01-16-2015, 03:46 PM
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Off with the head!
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Old 01-16-2015, 04:52 PM
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Curious question but, I have always been under the assumption that our hydraulic lash adjusters behave in a similar fashion to honda lost motion adjusters on vtec engines. Honda upgraded that design years ago to go from a oil fed piston setup to a spring assembly as shown in the picture below, I wonder if something similar could be adapted to maintain zero lash.

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Old 01-16-2015, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Spawne32 View Post
Curious question but, I have always been under the assumption that our hydraulic lash adjusters behave in a similar fashion to honda lost motion adjusters on vtec engines. Honda upgraded that design years ago to go from a oil fed piston setup to a spring assembly as shown in the picture below, I wonder if something similar could be adapted to maintain zero lash.

lmao let me know how zero lash works out for you
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Old 01-16-2015, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by TStone View Post
lmao let me know how zero lash works out for you
All ecotecs run zero lash you moron lol
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Old 01-16-2015, 07:13 PM
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lol
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