ZZP's Neutral Balance Shafts..
01-12-2010, 03:38 PM
#26
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Location: Portland, OR
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The comment towards bolus and the comment regarding drivability is totally understood. i did the same thing and went from having polys to OTTP mounts, louad ass ZZP exhaust to smooth Hahn...etc. certainly the DD aspect and creature comforts take a hit for performance.
But i have ridden in a stock Atom (Quicksilver, driven by Aaron Silver) and other than the wind in your face and the organ shifting tight suspension...it sounded like a bone stock LSJ(whining blower and all) so i believe there is a slight comparision
Now certainly bolus wont have dash rattles...
The Ecotec atom stock is a lot smoother than you would expect. But it is definitely as close as you can get to bolting the engine straight to your ass. The vibration without the shafts is noticeable but not nearly as bad as what people hear are talking about.
01-12-2010, 05:06 PM
#29
You cannot give a HP gain. You really need to read the product page and the article about balance shafts.
Asking how much power is a simple question with an extremely complex answer. It's like asking how much HP 5# of boost gives. Too many variables. Similarly the neutral shafts mainly give power because you can spin the motor to higher rpm.
But adding these solid shafts others are selling that weigh almost 5# each means you have to spin ~9 pounds to 16,000+ rpm which requires a decent amount of HP. The ZZP shafts are 1.75# each. Better yet would be removing them altogether but that requires the electric water pump kit which we haven't released yet. We are working on it though and it's working great in the test cars.
Unfortunately those watching ZZP know, we can take a long time to develop, test and release products. Sometimes years. We're working on ways to speed this up but past failures have taught us that slower is sometimes better.
Asking how much power is a simple question with an extremely complex answer. It's like asking how much HP 5# of boost gives. Too many variables. Similarly the neutral shafts mainly give power because you can spin the motor to higher rpm.
But adding these solid shafts others are selling that weigh almost 5# each means you have to spin ~9 pounds to 16,000+ rpm which requires a decent amount of HP. The ZZP shafts are 1.75# each. Better yet would be removing them altogether but that requires the electric water pump kit which we haven't released yet. We are working on it though and it's working great in the test cars.
Unfortunately those watching ZZP know, we can take a long time to develop, test and release products. Sometimes years. We're working on ways to speed this up but past failures have taught us that slower is sometimes better.
01-12-2010, 05:13 PM
#30
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You cannot give a HP gain. You really need to read the product page and the article about balance shafts.
Asking how much power is a simple question with an extremely complex answer. It's like asking how much HP 5# of boost gives. Too many variables. Similarly the neutral shafts mainly give power because you can spin the motor to higher rpm.
But adding these solid shafts others are selling that weigh almost 5# each means you have to spin ~9 pounds to 16,000+ rpm which requires a decent amount of HP. The ZZP shafts are 1.75# each. Better yet would be removing them altogether but that requires the electric water pump kit which we haven't released yet. We are working on it though and it's working great in the test cars.
Unfortunately those watching ZZP know, we can take a long time to develop, test and release products. Sometimes years. We're working on ways to speed this up but past failures have taught us that slower is sometimes better.
Asking how much power is a simple question with an extremely complex answer. It's like asking how much HP 5# of boost gives. Too many variables. Similarly the neutral shafts mainly give power because you can spin the motor to higher rpm.
But adding these solid shafts others are selling that weigh almost 5# each means you have to spin ~9 pounds to 16,000+ rpm which requires a decent amount of HP. The ZZP shafts are 1.75# each. Better yet would be removing them altogether but that requires the electric water pump kit which we haven't released yet. We are working on it though and it's working great in the test cars.
Unfortunately those watching ZZP know, we can take a long time to develop, test and release products. Sometimes years. We're working on ways to speed this up but past failures have taught us that slower is sometimes better.
I removed mine with the GMracing balance shaft delete kit without needing an electric pump, but that cost more than your new balance shafts. Given the engine modifications that a balance shaft removal costs, I'd go with your solution if I did it again.
01-12-2010, 07:06 PM
#32
Senior Member
No he runs the NBS. But an E-water pump and no chain on them. Instead of plugging up the oil galleys he uses the nbs for that. But, because Fred doesn't need them I'm getting his! 8K here I come!
01-13-2010, 02:45 PM
#37
Neutral balance chafts dont reduce engine life.
Neutral balance shafts can be replace without removing the engine, head or valvecover.
Neutral balance shafts and there weight affect engine power in a way similar to a lightweight flywheel, but on a much smaller scale. Lighter is better, but its highly unlikely youd ever notice notice a difference in power. Lighter shafts are a good idea, I turned down a set of GMRacing shafts several years ago, to lighten them, similar to what ZZP has done. A light shaft will reduce stress on the waterpump chain during rpm transitions.
The difference in power gain between a full size shaft and a reduced size shaft will be minimal in my opinion. The biggest benefit of shafts is always the reduction of the stress on the chain and the elimination of the relatively weak(as compared to aftermarket) stock shafts and the amount of energy required to spin them due to their out of balance design. Both shafts still have the same radii of material to swing, and the same friction levels,(a few pounds spinning perfect circles on such a small shaft isnt something I think ANYONE would feel) if max power gain is what youre after go with a shaft delete kit.(there are options that maintain a chan driven water pump) If youre considering shafts you really cant go wrong with any of them it would seem, if they are all tested properly Id say buy whomever is cheapest or from your fave vendor.
Neutral balance shafts can be replace without removing the engine, head or valvecover.
Neutral balance shafts and there weight affect engine power in a way similar to a lightweight flywheel, but on a much smaller scale. Lighter is better, but its highly unlikely youd ever notice notice a difference in power. Lighter shafts are a good idea, I turned down a set of GMRacing shafts several years ago, to lighten them, similar to what ZZP has done. A light shaft will reduce stress on the waterpump chain during rpm transitions.
The difference in power gain between a full size shaft and a reduced size shaft will be minimal in my opinion. The biggest benefit of shafts is always the reduction of the stress on the chain and the elimination of the relatively weak(as compared to aftermarket) stock shafts and the amount of energy required to spin them due to their out of balance design. Both shafts still have the same radii of material to swing, and the same friction levels,(a few pounds spinning perfect circles on such a small shaft isnt something I think ANYONE would feel) if max power gain is what youre after go with a shaft delete kit.(there are options that maintain a chan driven water pump) If youre considering shafts you really cant go wrong with any of them it would seem, if they are all tested properly Id say buy whomever is cheapest or from your fave vendor.
01-13-2010, 03:53 PM
#42
Yeah, not a quick job in any sense, two full days if you've never done it I would guess. Assuming you just tilt the motor down enough to slide them out and that doesn't have any complications. I'd only do it if I had the motor out of the car for some reason.
01-13-2010, 05:27 PM
#43
here's the how-to for a balance shaft delete kit (installing neutrals is incredibly similar FYI)
http://www.ecotecforum.com/forums/sh...e+shaft+delete
thats just a little excessive..
http://www.ecotecforum.com/forums/sh...e+shaft+delete
thats just a little excessive..
Last edited by HunterKiller89; 01-13-2010 at 08:40 PM.
01-13-2010, 11:52 PM
#45
here's the how-to for a balance shaft delete kit (installing neutrals is incredibly similar FYI)
http://www.ecotecforum.com/forums/sh...e+shaft+delete
thats just a little excessive..
http://www.ecotecforum.com/forums/sh...e+shaft+delete
thats just a little excessive..
01-14-2010, 10:50 AM
#47
The problem with developing products for a market and selling them based on their merrits is that other vendors don't always have to give accurate information in order to compete. Most customers do not verify the accuracy of what they are told from any vendor and they only buy products once so they never get a chance to AB compare things. What ZZP has found in the past is that we lose a lot of sales, sometimes for a few years to companies like this but eventually patterns emerge and customers start posting their own findings. This holds true if you were to misrepresent the weight of a product, or say that you aren't selling the same axles for $400 that another company is selling for $225 only to be proven later that you were or making claims about cooling surface area of 4900, when it's closer to 4000 or claiming that a blower you sell will give 350WHP. Sometimes it takes years but eventually the combination of ZZP cars outperforming others and independent customers posting and talking in meets brings light to many things. This is the ZZP strategy. Over the long haul continue in markets where others leave and prove that we value honesty over immediate sales based on sometimes false claims. And keep in mind, no matter what is said by a vendor, in the end the customers always vote and in a few years the leader is elected.
01-14-2010, 11:38 AM
#49
Senior Member
Zoomer, if your product is superior, he opened the door for you to sell your product and give solid information backing the fact that your product is, in fact, superior. Why the need to call him out and not answer the original question? Could have just said "They're made of X material and are heat treated to X standards while weighing X pounds."
BTW, did you make sure to drain all fluid from the H/E before weighing it?
*Trying to ease the tension*