2.2L L61 Performance Tech 16 valve 145 hp EcoTec with 155 lb-ft of torque

jdbaugh1 official "build" thread

Old 05-15-2017, 11:16 AM
  #76  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: 02-03-16
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,912
Received 176 Likes on 169 Posts
Originally Posted by Slowbalt2000 View Post
Shouldnt be hard to make at all. I plan on running two stock heat exchangers this time around.
You could make this bracket work for 2 you would just need to widen the mounting portion. Lacking a lower front mount like I have you should have plenty of room.
jdbaugh1 is offline  
Old 05-15-2017, 11:38 AM
  #77  
Moderator
Platinum Member
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Slowbalt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-15-11
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 25,195
Received 344 Likes on 315 Posts
Yep, that was the plan
Slowbalt2000 is offline  
Old 05-30-2017, 01:07 PM
  #78  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: 02-03-16
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,912
Received 176 Likes on 169 Posts

Well I received in my used LSJ block. Was told cylinders would be good to go with a light hone if I was using stock LSJ pistons. Obviously not the case. Cylinder 1 has huge grooves in it. I told the seller and they offered to send me a different block. I then told them my plan was actually to install new sleeves and maybe we could work out a discount instead. So now it doesn't look like I will be reimbursed in any way even though I was provided with an inferior product that should easily be worth less money than a block with usable sleeves. For a comparable example I ordered a fender from JC Whitney. When my fender came in with a dent in it they didn't say "oh well you are going to paint it anyway" no, they reimbursed me for providing me with a product that was different than described upon sale.

Last edited by jdbaugh1; 05-30-2017 at 01:17 PM.
jdbaugh1 is offline  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:15 PM
  #79  
Moderator
Platinum Member
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Slowbalt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-15-11
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 25,195
Received 344 Likes on 315 Posts
damn, where did you get it? I got a gen3 from ebay and it looked cherry.
Slowbalt2000 is offline  
Old 05-30-2017, 03:17 PM
  #80  
Senior Member
iTrader: (3)
 
advise's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-25-07
Location: Bohemia, New York, Long Island
Posts: 2,390
Received 18 Likes on 16 Posts
Originally Posted by jdbaugh1 View Post

Made stock lsj h/e crash bar mount brackets out of 1/8" aluminum cut out with a cut off wheel and bent in a vise with a small sledge hammer. I have the flat pattern I would share if anyone ever wanted to duplicate this to relocate the h/e in FRONT of the AC condenser.
looks good i assume it got to you in one piece
hope shes working well for you
advise is offline  
Old 05-30-2017, 04:35 PM
  #81  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: 02-03-16
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,912
Received 176 Likes on 169 Posts
Originally Posted by Slowbalt2000 View Post
damn, where did you get it? I got a gen3 from ebay and it looked cherry.
I don't really want to put him on blast because he did offer to send a different block. I would just think he should be willing to refund 30 to 50 dollars. Are you going the slight "over-hone" with the custom built pistons for your block? How much did you get it for if you don't mind me asking?
jdbaugh1 is offline  
Old 05-30-2017, 04:37 PM
  #82  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: 02-03-16
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,912
Received 176 Likes on 169 Posts
Originally Posted by advise View Post
looks good i assume it got to you in one piece
hope shes working well for you

Works great and yes it arrived in great condition. My intake air temps hover around 20 above ambient with the addition of this h/e. Unfortunately my car is burning oil like no tomorrow so it is parked for now getting ready to have the engine dropped out.
jdbaugh1 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
advise (05-30-2017)
Old 05-30-2017, 04:56 PM
  #83  
Moderator
Platinum Member
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Slowbalt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-15-11
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 25,195
Received 344 Likes on 315 Posts
I paid 225 shipped and yeah its gonna need a slight hone
Slowbalt2000 is offline  
Old 05-31-2017, 06:42 PM
  #84  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: 02-03-16
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,912
Received 176 Likes on 169 Posts
Well I received in the balance shaft delete bushings I ordered from OTTP but the idler assemblies I paid extra for are nowhere to be found. Currently waiting on how OTTP will handle this. However it is looking likely I will need to make my own idler assemblies. Is it as simple as cutting the end off of the balance shaft and reusing it?
jdbaugh1 is offline  
Old 05-31-2017, 07:08 PM
  #85  
Senior Member
iTrader: (3)
 
advise's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-25-07
Location: Bohemia, New York, Long Island
Posts: 2,390
Received 18 Likes on 16 Posts
Originally Posted by jdbaugh1 View Post
Well I received in the balance shaft delete bushings I ordered from OTTP but the idler assemblies I paid extra for are nowhere to be found. Currently waiting on how OTTP will handle this. However it is looking likely I will need to make my own idler assemblies. Is it as simple as cutting the end off of the balance shaft and reusing it?
I cut mine with a chop saw and had my machines mill then flat
advise is offline  
Old 05-31-2017, 11:58 PM
  #86  
Moderator
Platinum Member
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Slowbalt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-15-11
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 25,195
Received 344 Likes on 315 Posts
I cut mine with a hacksaw its pretty easy
Slowbalt2000 is offline  
Old 06-01-2017, 09:17 AM
  #87  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: 02-03-16
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,912
Received 176 Likes on 169 Posts
Seems like I should be able to hack my way through it. I hope OTTP refunds me the extra on top. I don't know why it is I have so much trouble getting what I ordered.
jdbaugh1 is offline  
Old 06-01-2017, 04:51 PM
  #88  
Banned
 
Join Date: 03-17-17
Posts: 0
Received 93 Likes on 89 Posts
Nice build!
Henry3959 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
jdbaugh1 (06-02-2017)
Old 06-02-2017, 09:21 AM
  #89  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: 02-03-16
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,912
Received 176 Likes on 169 Posts
I know it probably doesn't look like I did much of anything in this picture but I am only a couple steps away from dropping the cradle assembly. To me, even with having to figure out how to get the front end high enough to clear, dropping it through the bottom will be much easier than removing from the top. The hardest think I had to do was remove the heater hose and the damn steering shaft knuckle from the steering rack gave me a hell of a fight for some reason.
jdbaugh1 is offline  
Old 06-02-2017, 10:38 AM
  #90  
Banned
 
Join Date: 03-17-17
Posts: 0
Received 93 Likes on 89 Posts
So I ran the heat exchanger pics by a colleague at Harrison Radiator just to get a second opinion and his reply was the same as my thoughts when I saw this yesterday. In un-stacking the heat exchanger you have lost the low speed cooling from the fan on both the condenser and Supercharger heat exchanger. It has also caused high speed cooling deflection to the condenser and radiator.

If the AC is no longer being used, remove the condenser and place the heat exchanger back up against the radiator.

I have spent over 20 years training for GM but my colleague still works at the desert proving grounds in Mesa where I have had many weeks of training. Use the info if you like.
Henry3959 is offline  
Old 06-02-2017, 11:37 AM
  #91  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: 02-03-16
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,912
Received 176 Likes on 169 Posts
Originally Posted by HGT View Post
So I ran the heat exchanger pics by a colleague at Harrison Radiator just to get a second opinion and his reply was the same as my thoughts when I saw this yesterday. In un-stacking the heat exchanger you have lost the low speed cooling from the fan on both the condenser and Supercharger heat exchanger. It has also caused high speed cooling deflection to the condenser and radiator.

If the AC is no longer being used, remove the condenser and place the heat exchanger back up against the radiator.

I have spent over 20 years training for GM but my colleague still works at the desert proving grounds in Mesa where I have had many weeks of training. Use the info if you like.
I didn't really un-stack the heat exchanger I just changed the order. How would I lose low speed cooling on the condenser? My condenser is in the stock location for my car. I may have less low speed airflow through the h/e and maybe slightly hampered performance when the AC is OFF. When the AC is on the additional airflow doesn't help anything because that air is heated through the condenser. With the AC on this is a huge improvement in h/e efficiency. With the AC off maybe a slight drop but not really significant.

My radiator temps did seem to increase a whole whopping 5 degrees from this change. From around 175 to 180. But I also didn't have the stock LSJ h/e mounted prior to this so I can't really say that the position is the cause for the slightly higher temps. Could just be the additional drag through the h/e.

My IAT2 temps stabilize at around 20 degrees above ambient. Before with only the lower ZZP S3 front mount my temps stabilized at 30 degrees above ambient. During a pull my IAT2 temps hardly even rise (I also have water/meth injection) compared to before. Once I have it all back together I can get some videos of the temps but I am very happy with this setup and it is a significant improvement over what I had.

I'm not saying that your assumptions are incorrect, I'm just saying the negative effect is not as significant as you think based on the empirical data I have observed.
jdbaugh1 is offline  
Old 06-02-2017, 11:52 AM
  #92  
Banned
 
Join Date: 03-17-17
Posts: 0
Received 93 Likes on 89 Posts
Wasn't the heat exchanger between the radiator and condenser? That is called a stack. There is now the space between the radiator and condenser. The fan will pull air through the radiator as designed then get the air from the space between the two. It will not pull it through the condenser.

I agree with the AC on the refrigerant temps that are exchanged to the air go through the HE but high TPS values disengage the AC. It's the best layout for OEM cooling. Adding a secondary HE is really the best way to attack this which is why that is what you see done 99% of the time.
Henry3959 is offline  
Old 06-02-2017, 12:00 PM
  #93  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: 02-03-16
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,912
Received 176 Likes on 169 Posts
Originally Posted by HGT View Post
Wasn't the heat exchanger between the radiator and condenser? That is called a stack. There is now the space between the radiator and condenser. The fan will pull air through the radiator as designed then get the air from the space between the two. It will not pull it through the condenser.

I agree with the AC on the refrigerant temps that are exchanged to the air go through the HE but high TPS values disengage the AC. It's the best layout for OEM cooling. Adding a secondary HE is really the best way to attack this which is why that is what you see done 99% of the time.
My car doesn't come with a supercharger. The condenser is still stacked up as tight against the radiator as it ever was. There is not a gap from where the h/e used to be. The AC condenser is in the spot where the h/e is typically on an LSJ. My h/e is also not spaced very far from the condenser. I put it as close as I felt comfortable with as they have different mounting points and I don't want them rubbing. If you could see it in person you would be able to tell they are still stacked just in a different order than is stock on an LSJ.

I started of with ONLY a ZZP S3 front lower mount h/e as that is what comes in their kit. I have added this LSJ h/e as a secondary unit.
jdbaugh1 is offline  
Old 06-02-2017, 12:22 PM
  #94  
Banned
 
Join Date: 03-17-17
Posts: 0
Received 93 Likes on 89 Posts
Correct... I am doing the same with my Sport but will be putting the HE where it would have been in the OEM application and using the OEM brackets and rubber trim. Do you still have the rubber trim that covers the top opening between the Radiator and Condenser? That is there to stop the fan from pulling air from between the two.

Under hard acceleration (95% OEM) the AC shuts off and the condenser temps drop almost immediately. That can be lowered in HP Tuner as you probably know. I have mine set at 75% now and may lower it a bit more after my SC is on.

Like I said... I'm not telling you what to do, just sharing professional knowledge from myself and the people that design and test this in extreme conditions. I spent so much time at the Desert proving grounds I have a wardrobe of their shirts.


Henry3959 is offline  
Old 06-02-2017, 12:40 PM
  #95  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: 02-03-16
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,912
Received 176 Likes on 169 Posts
I don't have the rubber piece I don't think but I could install some baffling if need be. I don't really think I would have much to gain by going from this to the stock LSJ setup. Everything you are saying makes complete sense and I am not arguing that you are wrong on the principles but maybe overestimating the significance. Based on what I have observed my current setup works great. It may be 5% less efficient in certain situations but IMO not enough to make the change.
jdbaugh1 is offline  
Old 06-02-2017, 12:56 PM
  #96  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: 02-03-16
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,912
Received 176 Likes on 169 Posts
I say HGT and I do a formal comparison after we each get our builds complete. We should record our IAT1, IAT2, Coolant, and ambient temperatures with and without the AC on. Then do some pulls with or without the AC on. I think it would be interesting.

HGT, do you run 100% water or a 50/50 mix?
jdbaugh1 is offline  
Old 06-02-2017, 01:05 PM
  #97  
Banned
 
Join Date: 03-17-17
Posts: 0
Received 93 Likes on 89 Posts
I highly recommend you make something to do what the rubber flap was doing or better.

Others have done this but kept it very close and kept the rubber flap. They have also noticed higher AC head pressures which adversely affects cooling of the refrigerant. GM really has this from an OEM standpoint to work its best under all conditions. Like I said, the AC shuts off when you need the Boost most.

Henry3959 is offline  
Old 06-02-2017, 01:45 PM
  #98  
Banned
 
Join Date: 03-17-17
Posts: 0
Received 93 Likes on 89 Posts
Originally Posted by jdbaugh1 View Post
I say HGT and I do a formal comparison after we each get our builds complete. We should record our IAT1, IAT2, Coolant, and ambient temperatures with and without the AC on. Then do some pulls with or without the AC on. I think it would be interesting.

HGT, do you run 100% water or a 50/50 mix?
There are hundreds of LSJ owners already OEM but sure. I will be a 2.4L and still need to find a good way to get a cold air supply, so we may not be apples and apples.

Last edited by Henry3959; 06-02-2017 at 01:50 PM.
Henry3959 is offline  
Old 06-02-2017, 01:54 PM
  #99  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: 02-03-16
Location: Kansas
Posts: 4,912
Received 176 Likes on 169 Posts
I'll maybe shift it a bit closer and see what happens but I am keeping it in front. The problem with the AC is it will raise the steady state temperature of the intercooler system coolant. So even if it shuts off during a pull, all of the coolant within the system is starting out at a much higher temperature at the start of the pull.

-"GM really has this from an OEM standpoint to work its best under all conditions"
"Best" depends on what priorities are. A car like this is most likely optimized for AC performance over heat exchanger efficiency which makes sense for your average consumer. If I had all of the baffles and the h/e, condenser, and radiator in the same proximity as stock, only in a different order, I don't see how the heat exchanger would perform worse in any situation.

Just like the voided bushings on our lower control arms. These are not optimized for performance but ride comfort. There are many considerations on productions cars where performance is not the priority.

Without doing CFD or a real world direct comparison with that variable isolated our argument is frivolous. Right now we have nothing quantitative, just assumptions and hypotheticals.
jdbaugh1 is offline  
Old 06-02-2017, 02:18 PM
  #100  
Banned
 
Join Date: 03-17-17
Posts: 0
Received 93 Likes on 89 Posts
I'm not arguing... Just stating facts. R134A is 7 degrees less efficient over R12 so engineers were also dealing with that issue and the time you are driving with AC vs under heavy boost is well greater than 99% for most of us that see hot climate temps. If this is not a daily driver and not worried about resale value or just don't need AC where you live, I would put it on a diet and remove all AC components. The compressor, evaporator, condenser and lines would be a nice offset for what the supercharger kit added. I'm betting your not going to do that in Kansas... I lived in NE for 21 years and just the water it pulls out of that humid environment makes me fell better.
Henry3959 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.