La-git IAT's with meth. - Cobalt SS Network

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La-git IAT's with meth.

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Old 09-01-2018, 04:51 PM
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La-git IAT's with meth.

Those that are supercharged with Water / Meth injection, what are you seeing for a (Delta) temp drop? Snow Performance posts that the IAT temps can be lowered "as much as" 100F.
If you have an LNF and Water / Meth I would also be interested in how much your able to drop the IAT but it's a bit different setup..
After adding my lower grill I am loosing some airflow to the secondary heat exchanger but there are many directions to go to drop the IAT temps more.

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Old 09-02-2018, 10:00 AM
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People like the Griffin heat exchanger that is available for these cars. I assume you are already on dual pass end plate.

I inject water/methanol but I can't tell you how much it drops the temperature from where it would be without water/meth. However with 2X-3gph nozzles I can do a 1st through 4th gear pull and not see temperatures reach 140 until the very end of the pull on a 95F+ day. When doing intermittent shorter pulls while cruising at highway speeds my IAT2 temp will actually drop while boosting from where it was while just cruising though if I stay in it it will begin to climb back up slowly. During autocross bursts of throttle it keeps my IAT2 temps around 115-120 for the duration of the run on a hot day.

If you could figure out a good way to inject after the laminova cores, while maintaining even mixture to all cylinders, you would really see significant cooling benefits. When injecting before the cores, like I do, it really hinders the performance of the cores/heat exchanger from lowering the temperature differential. However, it works good enough to get the job done and though it would be possible to tap the manifold for nozzles on the back side of the cores I would not be confident in consistent/even distribution to the cylinders.
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:38 PM
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I think those inflated numbers come from the 1980-90's inefficient non-intercooled supercharger systems.
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Old 09-17-2018, 03:24 PM
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I disagree with you about spraying after the cores. I would spray before the cores. By lowering the inlet air temp you are decreasing the temp differential, but you don’t care about how much work your intercooler does. You just want to get it as cool as possible.

the more you increase temp differential, the hotter the air comes out after the intercooler

I’m not taking into account what meth/water does to corrode the cores. If that’s what you originally meant, then my bad

Originally Posted by jdbaugh1 View Post
People like the Griffin heat exchanger that is available for these cars. I assume you are already on dual pass end plate.

I inject water/methanol but I can't tell you how much it drops the temperature from where it would be without water/meth. However with 2X-3gph nozzles I can do a 1st through 4th gear pull and not see temperatures reach 140 until the very end of the pull on a 95F+ day. When doing intermittent shorter pulls while cruising at highway speeds my IAT2 temp will actually drop while boosting from where it was while just cruising though if I stay in it it will begin to climb back up slowly. During autocross bursts of throttle it keeps my IAT2 temps around 115-120 for the duration of the run on a hot day.

If you could figure out a good way to inject after the laminova cores, while maintaining even mixture to all cylinders, you would really see significant cooling benefits. When injecting before the cores, like I do, it really hinders the performance of the cores/heat exchanger from lowering the temperature differential. However, it works good enough to get the job done and though it would be possible to tap the manifold for nozzles on the back side of the cores I would not be confident in consistent/even distribution to the cylinders.
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Old 09-17-2018, 03:36 PM
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The heat of vaporization for the volume of fluid you are injecting is fixed. Whether you inject before or after the cores doesn't matter as far as the amount of heat your injected fluid will absorb from the intake charge by evaporating. However, when you inject before the cores you are lowering the temperature differential between the cores and intake charge as well as between your intercooler and ambient air. This will drastically decrease the amount of heat removed by your heat exchanger system which will yield a higher final charge air temp than if you inject after the cores which would allow the heat exchanger system to transfer more heat out of the system.
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Old 09-17-2018, 03:45 PM
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people have tested and proven that spraying post blower lowers iat's more. plus pre-blower has been known to work its way into, and wash the grease out of the needle bearings, requiring frequent maintenance

The delta is really going to be based how hot your IATs currently are, and on how much meth you will be spraying (and as a result, how much you want to rely on the functionality of your meth injection setup for fueling).

Methanol has a boiling point of ~148* Fahrenheit, so above that temp is where you will see the most heat consumed as it flashes from liquid state to gas. Any non-stock blower setup is going to see those temps pre laminova, so that's a non-issue.

Basically if you want to spray any amount that is going to make a worthwhile difference, you will have to pull significant fuel out of the tune. and the more you spray, the more fuel you pull, and the more faith you put into your pump/wiring/relay/etc reliability. If anything fails, it's all going to go south pretty quickly. I personally wouldn't spray unless you are seeing IAT's over 150*f, at which I would personally invest the money into a proper heat exchanger rather than a secondary front mount. or if you haven't already, relocate the oem heat exchanger to in front of the a/c condenser

I assume you are on gasoline and not ethanol?
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Old 09-17-2018, 03:53 PM
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A proper water/methanol injection should vaporize the full volume of liquid to vapor and you don't have to have temperatures above the boiling point of the fluid to do that. You do have to utilize a properly designed nozzle that sprays a fine enough mist for it to fully evaporate but that should be a given. The amount of heat removed from the injected fluid evaporating is not dependent on the charge air temp provided that all of the injected fluid does actually evaporate, which it should even at charge air temps much lower than the boiling point of that fluid.
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Old 09-17-2018, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 07blackg5 View Post

Basically if you want to spray any amount that is going to make a worthwhile difference, you will have to pull significant fuel out of the tune. and the more you spray, the more fuel you pull, and the more faith you put into your pump/wiring/relay/etc reliability. If anything fails, it's all going to go south pretty quickly. I personally wouldn't spray unless you are seeing IAT's over 150*f, at which I would personally invest the money into a proper heat exchanger rather than a secondary front mount. or if you haven't already, relocate the oem heat exchanger to in front of the a/c condenser
if you have a good quality water meth kit and keep en eye on things, failure really is a non issue. i make sure to inspect my nozzle every oil change, check the level every time i fill up with fuel, and keep an eye on what the car is doing. when i get into the throttle and its not spraying i cant ell instantly, feels like im missing 30hp. in that short time between hitting it, realizing its not working and lifting, the ecm is pulling timing and cylinder temps havent gotten high enough to cause damage. keeping an eye on the wideband is another key thing, if its lean, lift.

ive been running water meth on my cobalt for 8 years now, and tuned for it the whole time. it hasnt been issue free the whole time, i did have issues with my original devils own kit, but because i pay attention it hasnt caused any damage. ive currently got an aem kit in my car and have had zero issues with it, nor have i had any issues with the aem kit in my other car.
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Old 09-17-2018, 04:37 PM
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I never said it wouldn't cool under the boiling point. I said you would see more drastic results over it. The lower the boiling point, the faster evaporation happens. the closer the temp to the boiling point (and the hotter you get in general), the more "violent" the transition from a liquid to a gaseous state, which will cool faster up to the thermal limit of what you are spraying (which in this case is dependent on the amount of methanol you are spraying). The intake temperatures you are spraying through most assuredly has an effect.

they key in your statement is "provided all the fluid actually evaporates". Yes a fine mist helps the efficiency of evaporation, but the heat has a direct effect on how much evaporates in the same amount of time between the blower and the cylinders. Spraying through "hot iat's" will allow much more methanol to evaporate than spraying through "cool iats"

Which is why most of the methanol evaporates before the cylinders (cooling iats), and most of the water actually makes it into the cylinders, where it is actually hot enough to get the liquid water to flash into a gaseous state and absorb heat. This is why spraying strait water does very little to cool iat's, but lowers cylinder temps drastically.

Again, the air temperature you are spraying into DOES have a drastic effect.
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Old 09-17-2018, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Sharkey View Post
if you have a good quality water meth kit and keep en eye on things, failure really is a non issue. i make sure to inspect my nozzle every oil change, check the level every time i fill up with fuel, and keep an eye on what the car is doing. when i get into the throttle and its not spraying i cant ell instantly, feels like im missing 30hp. in that short time between hitting it, realizing its not working and lifting, the ecm is pulling timing and cylinder temps havent gotten high enough to cause damage. keeping an eye on the wideband is another key thing, if its lean, lift.

ive been running water meth on my cobalt for 8 years now, and tuned for it the whole time. it hasnt been issue free the whole time, i did have issues with my original devils own kit, but because i pay attention it hasnt caused any damage. ive currently got an aem kit in my car and have had zero issues with it, nor have i had any issues with the aem kit in my other car.
I'm not saying it's probable, i'm saying it's possible. IMO, the less stuff you have to rely on, the less possibility there is for catastrophic failure. It may not be probable, but someone wins the lottery almost every time
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Old 09-17-2018, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jdbaugh1 View Post
evaporate, which it should even at charge air temps much lower than the boiling point of that fluid.
Don't confuse evaporation with boiling or vaporize

REMEMBER:
At 12 psi of boost (if you inject after the super charger) it now takes 242F to vaporize water.
At 20 psi of boost you now need 260F
If you inject before boost and start spraying at 5" of vacuum, you will now start to vaporize water at 205.

All specs at sea level.

Last edited by HGT; 09-17-2018 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 09-17-2018, 04:51 PM
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I believe evaporation by definition is below the liquids boiling point.
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Old 09-17-2018, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 07blackg5 View Post
I believe evaporation by definition is below the liquids boiling point.
Exactly, Evaporation is a different process to boiling. The first is a surface effect that can happen at any temperature, while the latter is a bulk transformation that only happens when the conditions are correct.. When spraying water / meth, you need the conditions to vaporize it immediately or you know what your cylinders will get.

Technically, during evaporation the water is not turning into a gas, but random movement of the surface molecules allows some of them enough energy to escape from the surface into the air. The rate at which they leave the surface depends on a number of factors - for instance the temperature of both air and water, the humidity of the air, and the size of the surface exposed.
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:09 PM
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I was assuming anyone that was wanting to inject water/methanol would use small enough nozzle(s) so that all of the injected fluid would evaporate by the time it has entered the combustion chambers.
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jdbaugh1 View Post
I was assuming anyone that was wanting to inject water/methanol would use small enough nozzle(s) so that all of the injected fluid would evaporate by the time it has entered the combustion chambers.
Your still using the wrong term: Don't confuse evaporation with boiling
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:24 PM
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What makes you think I'm confusing evaporation with boiling?
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:25 PM
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Because you keep saying evaporate
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:32 PM
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But I'm talking about vaporization?
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:33 PM
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Then say it... Don't say dick when you mean *****!!
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:45 PM
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Vaporization is what I meant. I should not have used that interchangeably with evaporation, my apologies. Although I do assume most of the vaporization takes place below the boiling temperature especially under conditions of boost which raise the boiling temperature as you said. If the primary vaporization takes place below the boiling point at a given pressure isn't that referred to as evaporation?
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jdbaugh1 View Post
Vaporization is what I meant. I should not have used that interchangeably with evaporation, my apologies. Although I do assume most of the vaporization takes place below the boiling temperature especially under conditions of boost which raise the boiling temperature as you said. If the primary vaporization takes place below the boiling point at a given pressure isn't that referred to as evaporation?
Not possible... H2O changes from a liquid to a vapor (vaporization or water) at 212F at 14.7psi of air pressure. For every psi of boost it takes 3 more degrees F.
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Old 09-17-2018, 06:01 PM
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Your confusing boiling with vaporization. Boiling and evaporation are both types of vaporization.
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Old 09-17-2018, 06:13 PM
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I know the difference... you're the one who started saying evaporation, then vaporization. I am discussing the boiling point of H2O and how boost pressure affects it.

Originally Posted by southal cobalt View Post
I disagree with you about spraying after the cores.
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Old 09-17-2018, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by HGT View Post
I know the difference... you're the one who started saying evaporation, then vaporization. I am discussing the boiling point of H2O and how boost pressure affects it.
Tbh Im not sure what you're going on about.
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Old 09-17-2018, 07:51 PM
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My point exactly... You take conversations so far down a Rabbit Hole you can't even find your own way out.
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