Does anyone have the flow rate numbers from all the different Ecotec heads? Do they all flow the same? This is the kind of info that is out there all over the place for the Honda K-motors but not for Ecotecs. Specifically I'm looking for flow numbers on the L61, LSJ, LNF, LE5, LAF/LEA, LTG, LCV, LKW

I'm deep in the research phase of a build and the lack of hard data on these engines is quite frustrating, lots of butt-dyno claims, threads where the OP disappears, missing images when dynos do actually happen, etc. I've got the performance build book(1st and 3rd editions) and their flow stats for the race ported LSJ head are either super bad or head flow is one of those stats that varies like crazy from setup to setup.

I CAN collect a bunch of these heads from the junkyard and test them, but I'm a broke college student so it's going to take a LONG time for me to get the money for the parts, especially the LNF/LSJ heads.


The build I'm planning out is an N/A ecotec, looking for 200-250WHP, as close to 250WHP as possible. I know this isn't the easy way to this power, I know it'll be more expensive than boost. I know. I'm looking for the N/A character because it's going in a 2500 lb Fiero. The Ecotecs are super easy to get in and working, just need to build an engine that will actually make power. Willing to combine whatever block and head will give me the most power!

Attached pic is the flow stats from the Build book on a ported LSJ head.

 

2.4 LE5 would have to be the best option. Lsj and lnf were designed to be boosted. I set my lsj to no boost once via hptuners and it was an absolute dog.

not sure which flow the best, but I would think le5 would have to be best. It can compete with a 2.0 civic si which is one of the best flowing 4 cyls out there

 

I nt know aout other heads but here are some stock numbers from zzp on the lsj
https://zzperformance.com/collection...ec-ported-head

 

Gotta say there is very few people over the years that have even kissed 200whp on na builds with the ecotec platform. I recall a guy many years ago that got 203whp with a 2.4 and all head and cam work done. he had ALLOT of money into it too!
Is there any reason you don’t want to use an lsj with an m62 pullied down? All the advantages of boosted and NA power band in one. Nice linear power band. And 225-250whp without to much hastle.
Or are you just doing it to be different? The gains from custom cams oversized valves ported heads and the piping to flow it have proven to be underwhelming. Like drop 4K and make 170whp.
And end up going boost in the end anyway.

 

Surely the LAF/LEA is a better point to start, right? they have more power stock, and if you use the LEA cams you should have a higher fuel limit due to cams that are made to supply E85, i think.

I've done tons of research, and I too can't really find many people that hit 200whp, but i also can find almost no one that actually dynos an NA 2.4 build with anything more than just intake, exhaust, tune. Here the HHR forums, EcotecPower forums, Youtube, or J-Body forums. I can see from the Dyno Thread that newt hit 193whp with bolt-ons injectors cams ported heads and tune, but the person above him hit 201whp with just bolt-ons and tune, which is very confusing. If you can link me to any NA dynos with more than bolt-ons, please do.

Then on Youtube ThatDudeInBlue recently drove a 2.4 ecotec swapped miata, and said it was Direct Injected(implying LAF/LEA) and 215whp, but i cant find the build on any forums or Youtube videos so that's not verified either. Also if an LEA w/bolt-ons is 215whp in a miata it should be like 225-230whp with a fwd trans.
As far as why NA, I'm just looking for an NA build, with the lightweight, sounds, simplicity, and characteristics of and NA build. I'm willing to go k24a2 if i NEED to, kits are starting to come out to put them in Fieros, but i would really prefer Ecotec because it's keeping it GM, and it's also way easier to put in the car.

I'm also looking into putting an LCV/LKW in, but they have a totally different transmission bolt-pattern. When GM came out with the LTG/LCV/LKW for some reason they decided that they needed their own unique bolt-pattern. And from the factory they never were mated to a FWD manual transmission from the research I've done so far. It seems LTG's were only manual for RWD cars. There is an F40 sold by GM that is made for the LTG in FWD applications(PN 24284070), but it is $2,000 and because it wasn't in a road car replacements would be impossible to find. I assume it would be possible to take another F40 and swap it's internals into this ones housing, but it's not confirmed. Also no one currently makes mounts for the LTG/LCV/LKW for the Fiero, or for this specific F40(no idea what mounts it needs), but hey i took welding classes for a reason.

 

Rockauto has the 2015 Buick Regal having a 6-speed manual and has a clutch kit, but it's unclear if this is mated to the LTG or the LHU. The F40 wikipedia says it was only in the Regal until 2013 so i'm not really sure what's going on there.

 

Unfortunately ZZP used a nonstandard flow bench so the results aren't comparable to measurements of other heads. I deeply disagree with their testing methodology because I just want to know the flow numbers of the heard, not with some theoretical intake and exhaust manifolds attached, those can change to allow for more flow and are an unnecessary variable added to the test

 

Honestly, I was only comparing the lsj, le5, lnf and 2.2. I don’t even know the other motors you mentioned

 

for n/a ecotecs you need to look past whats in street cars. check out some of the mini stock dirt track stuff. tjperformance does some killer stuff for these cars, he does a 95mm bore block (think this puts them up to 2.7l), 14:1 compression, +4mm valves, etc. obviously this isnt a streetable combination, however it can give you an idea whats out there.

if your looking for something to keep up with a k series for n/a power, an ecotec isnt it. the k series has a far better designed cylinder head, and there is no getting around that.

 

The lower levels I was referring to was original dyno threads. Back in the day. Same links you probably found. The newer DI applications would not really be comparable to those. That might be possible to get closer to the power levels your looking for. I just assumed you meant first and second gen ecotecs for cost effectiveness reasons. Honestly a super charger kit doesn’t add all that much weight.
f40 kits can be made to work with most of these as well. Nothing wrong with an f23 if you get it built with an lsd for this application as well.
if your dead set on Natrually aspirated just don’t get your hopes up too high to get over 180whp without boost or an agressive e85 tune with all the top end stuff done. Which costs significant money as stated.
the guy who got 201 whp with just bolt ons and tune was on a happy dyno for sure. It was beaten to death back in the day. There was a guy if I recall correctly with a stock lsj that made 255whp or something like that. So about 35-40 more than it should have for reference. I can’t remember if it was that car from the dyno thread for sure but basically guys Called bs on the comparability of his numbers is all. It’s just a number without baseline to compare.

 

I have an LTG powered car now, and came from a Harrop TVS LSJ. LTG is not a car you want to throw in a car and have fun if youre broke, those motors blow stock, tuned, lightly modded, heavily modded. Id stay far away lol. That being said no ones really played with the head in them and documented gain. Plus its DI.

That being said, Ebay has complete LSJ motor assemblies for 1800. I know you said NA but price for price and reliable power id still suggest the lsj over the 2.2

 

Thank you I'll look into that. I'm not looking for it to have the same upper limits as the k24, just looking to get as close to 250whp as possible, which is pretty easy to hit in a k24 w/a k20 head

Ah, that's some good info thank you. Yeah I'm open to all ecotecs, and an LE5 with an f23 would be easy as hell, but for the power I want it's looking like I'll either have to go LEA/LAF w/f23 or LCV/LKW w/f40. But I'm curious how an LE5 head on an LEA/LAF block would perform, as they have an 11.2:1 compression ratio, although I'm not sure if that comes from a smaller combustion volume in the head, shaved block, or bigger pistons. That's the some of the info I'm looking to get out there with this thread


yeah the LTG or LNF build is a LONG ways off after school, honestly this is too, right now I'm just looking to get all the information and data out there for future reference, my own and others. This fiero is getting NA no question, it's just a question of which motor/how it's build.

The only reason the LTG is relevant here is because the LTG, LCV, and LKW all share a unique bolt pattern so transmission choices would be interchangable between them

 

This ^^^^^^ for sure. We used to build engines for an off road series about 10 years ago that used a 2.4L as the base engine. We saw about 350 whp out of them. 9500rpm redline, ran on alcohol, 4 Weber carbs, a distributor, pretty crazy stuff.

 

After more research i can confirm the ecotec swapped miata in the ThatDudeInBlue video was most definitely either an LAF or LEA, the valve cover has a distinct bolt next to the oil fill that is not there on the LE5, and there is no fuel rail directly above the intake manifold.

Now to find out if this choice made the swap any more difficult or if the tuning was more difficult at all. The ECU in the LE5 cars is different than the one in the LAF/LEA cars according to rockauto

 

More relevant info: The FWD F40 that was mated to the LTG(which is the same bell housing as the LCV/LKW) Was actually sold in street cars: exclusively the 2014 to 2017 Buick Regal, so the $2000 part from GM is not necessary. The Regal F40 had the following Gear Ratios:

1st: 3.92
2nd: 2.04
3rd: 1.32
4th: 0.95
5th: 0.76
6th: 0.62
Reverse: 3.75
Final Drive: 3.76

Exhaust headers from 2.2 Cavaliers are confirmed to bolt up to 2nd gen Ecotecs(LNF,LE5, etc), but compatibility with third gen engines(LKW/LCV/LTG) from what ive found so far.

 

Regarding the LKW: This engine features VVL, variable valve lift, which allows the intake cam to switch to a higher lift lobe, exactly like Honda's VTEC.

The default cam profile is set up for basically idle/low speed on the low lift lobes and the high lift lobes are the exact same profile as the regular LCV intake cam(10.5mm lift) which is also the lift on stock LE5 intake cams.

As we know, these engines are set up for low/mid range torque, however i think that a custom intake cam could change this engine up completely, if you make the low lift profile the std 10.5mm lift and the high lift profile larger to optimize for higher end power with no loss to the low/mid end. This could really change the perception of the Ecotec and we could start seeing some better top end numbers and performance profiles, potentially seeing numbers closer to the K-series.

The GM factory stated numbers for the LE5 are 177HP 166lb-ft, and Miata guys that swap them in regularly get those numbers at the wheel in a RWD application, meaning you could get a little more out of it in a FWD(or Mid-engine RWD) application. The LKW is rated at 196-202HP 186lb-ft, and the LCV(LKW without VVL) is rated at up to 202HP 191lb-ft in the ATS. If it is rated in the same way as the LE5, some simple bolt-ons and a tune could get the LKW/LCV potentially at 200-215 wheel in FWD, and with a custom cam that has the LCV's can as the low lift profile and something larger as the high lift profile, the LKW should be even better.

The question then is about Ecotecs with performance cams, as I've heard that they dont respond particularly well to custom cams due to the hydraulic valve adjusters or something compressing and taking some of the movement that would go to the valve. I will start looking into this more now. Very excited to continue. Attached are dyno charts for the mentioned engines

 

More info: The LCV and LKW have forged cranks AND connecting rods, but unknown piston material. So unlike the Gen2 ecotecs, you dont need to make a hybrid engine with the crank from the 2.0L engines and blocks from larger engines to hold power, not that it is known if these engines are as intercompatible as the Gen2 engines.

And some clarification about cavalier exhaust: This only applies to 2002-2005 Cavs, those with the L61 engine. Headers will not work from the twin cam engine.

There is a newly announced 2.5L Turbo ecotec thats coming in the next year with 328HP 326lb-ft but it is unknown what the bellhousing will be so thats going to have to be investigated later

The 2.7L turbo in the silverado has a different bellhousing pattern than the 3rd gen ecotecs, not sure if any engine with that bellhousing was ever mated to a manual, FWD or RWD.

 

The 3rd gen Ecotecs are completely different. Basically nothing from the 2nd gen will swap over. The only thing I have found so far that you can make work is something like a LSJ/LNF flywheel to a gen 3. You just have to open up the bolt holes as the bolts they take are 1mm bigger in diameter. Other than that, they are completely different.

Also, going back to the LEAs, we have tuned many of them. Even in stock form but with something like an equal length header, true cold air intake and good tune, we have seen over 200whp on our horrible 91 octane gas. The LCVs make a little more HP but a good amount more TQ.

 

Thank you for the info! yeah on that header bit i think i hit send without finishing that sentence, meant to say compatibility was unconfirmed but thank you for confirming!

And that's good info on the LEA, thank you. good to see a second point of data on LEA's hitting 200whp! what do you usually see them in, dune buggys?

Also good bit of info on the LCV, i dont think the 2nd gen clutch components are necessary because the Regal came with the LTG and F40 so you can just use stock parts for that if used with an F40 unless you need a performance clutch. Curious what it would take to mate the LCV/LKW to the F23 even though they have different bell housings.

What do you think the LKW could be capable of with the low lift profile replaced with the LCV intake cam profile and the high lift profile being a larger lobe with more lift/duration? How do you go about finding what kind of cam specs and engine can take before you get valve-valve or valve-piston contact?

Thanks!

 

See answers above.

 

WHAT? lol ive been staring at pics of this engine for so long and never realized this. This is actually great news because now the intake is routed the right way for the Fiero and there is more room for the exhaust to have multiple components(resonator/muffler) in line without unnecessary routing, awesome.

thats great news too, wouldnt be surprised to see 210-215 wheel on an LEA in a Fiero.

Yeah, to be expected. Sucks because the F23 is WAY easier to get in a Fiero than an F40

Yeah im not expecting the cams to swap over or anything, but to use the lobes on the LCV as a guide for a custom LKW cam. I've heard that about the VVL as well, but i figure just stockpile a couple of those solenoids as backups.

 

you can go over 300hp rather easy with a 2.4 and dont buy into the big valve bs there are reasons why its lack luster performance and zzp is really close to actual lsj head flow numbers

 

Are you talking about NA or FI? 300 NA doesn't sound easy at all, this thread is about NA

 

I know what this thread is about dawg

 

So then what does it take to get to 300HP? Ive never even seen anyone claim 300HP NA, much less a dyno or build thread.