Turbo Swap Advice-Turbo Guru's Please Help....
11-13-2006, 04:29 AM
#26
Senior Member
Originally Posted by Killa SS
The guy that told me a bunch of stuff, i met him at the Drift comp at auto speed way a few months back, he had adjustable cams, intake full exhaust and 3"in DP and his turbo was spinning at its fullest to soon, it, was creating boost very close to idle, he told me he needed to get a bigger turbo because it spooled up to quickly.I thought it odd, but is that possible? But thats where i got my information.
Hopefully this makes sense. I'm tired lol
11-13-2006, 04:30 AM
#27
Senior Member
Originally Posted by Witt
The answer is quite easy. The supercharger is only efficient to a certain amount of airflow. The easiest way to achieve more power/faster 1/4 mile is to twin or turbocharge.
11-13-2006, 03:52 PM
#28
Originally Posted by 2K5SS/SC?
Garrett GT2971R is perfect for minimal lag and 350-400whp. It can be bought at ATP turbo with various housings to support your needs. I contacted and confirmed that with ATP turbo. The SR20DET guys use this turbo as a stealth upgrade because it looks identical to the regular "Disco Potato."
Thank you, and thank you to NJHK as well and everyone else. I'm interested in a ball-bearing turbo. I actually was looking at ATP turbo's site, is there such a thing as a dual ball bearing? I thought I saw somthing like that on there, but I know very little about turbo's. I"ll check into this GT2971R, and a 50 trim. Is ATP a good place to buy from? Thanks!
11-13-2006, 05:44 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by NJHK
I'm sorry but what you're describing is either not realistic or the person who is having that happen to him does not have a properly setup turbocharged system.
First and foremost...can we stop using this damn word... LAG!
I've come to find out that peoples interpretation of lag is purely opinion. The fact is, what you described as "boom, power" isn't realistic in most situations. Fact is, on a "realistic" turbocharged setup, the turbocharger is always spinning, even at idle. The thing is, it has to spin at a certain RPM to create X PSI.
The purpose of a good turbocharged setup is to have the most useable CFM throughout most of your powerband and not a small part of it. A very popular choice is a T3/T4 50 Trim turbocharger. This turbo is "bigger" but it is not something that will be something that you will see a huge delay in max psi. You SHOULD be able to spool this turbocharger to a realistic PSI amount in a good amount of time and have it support most of your RPM band. If you can reach max boost at 3000 RPMs, that'd be perfect because your redline is at 6500 or 7000 RPMs...even 6500 RPMs, that's 3500 RPMs of a strong power on an efficient compressor.
I just want people understand that Turbo lag is almost fiction if you aren't a complete idiot with your setup. The delay is all relative the amount of exhaust energy your engine is producing vs the size of turbine. The larger the turbine, the longer it will take to spin the mass (mass being the turbine).
Now to the original poster, like I said before, the T3/T4 50 Trim Turbocharger would be a good selection. It will be able to support your 400 HP perfectly fine. I'm not 100% sure on what they are rated at but it should be in that HP margin. If you are personally worried about "delay" of the turbocharger, you can do a number of things to improve your spool time:
1. Purchase that size but ball bearing. Those turbochargers spool very quickly.
2. Improve your valvetrain system. This could be done by purchasing a new profile camshaft and/or porting the exhaust ports on your cylinder head. If you do decide to port, you can also see if you can get your turbo manifolds ports to match up with the new size to make it more of an efficient exhaust flow (better flow of exhaust energy).
3. Get your turbo manifold coated. This will exhaust energy from leaving the manifold and going where you want that energy to go torwards...your turbine.
There are probably other ways but it's 2:11 AM CST and I'm tired & working lol.
If you have any further questions, feel free to ask.
First and foremost...can we stop using this damn word... LAG!
I've come to find out that peoples interpretation of lag is purely opinion. The fact is, what you described as "boom, power" isn't realistic in most situations. Fact is, on a "realistic" turbocharged setup, the turbocharger is always spinning, even at idle. The thing is, it has to spin at a certain RPM to create X PSI.
The purpose of a good turbocharged setup is to have the most useable CFM throughout most of your powerband and not a small part of it. A very popular choice is a T3/T4 50 Trim turbocharger. This turbo is "bigger" but it is not something that will be something that you will see a huge delay in max psi. You SHOULD be able to spool this turbocharger to a realistic PSI amount in a good amount of time and have it support most of your RPM band. If you can reach max boost at 3000 RPMs, that'd be perfect because your redline is at 6500 or 7000 RPMs...even 6500 RPMs, that's 3500 RPMs of a strong power on an efficient compressor.
I just want people understand that Turbo lag is almost fiction if you aren't a complete idiot with your setup. The delay is all relative the amount of exhaust energy your engine is producing vs the size of turbine. The larger the turbine, the longer it will take to spin the mass (mass being the turbine).
Now to the original poster, like I said before, the T3/T4 50 Trim Turbocharger would be a good selection. It will be able to support your 400 HP perfectly fine. I'm not 100% sure on what they are rated at but it should be in that HP margin. If you are personally worried about "delay" of the turbocharger, you can do a number of things to improve your spool time:
1. Purchase that size but ball bearing. Those turbochargers spool very quickly.
2. Improve your valvetrain system. This could be done by purchasing a new profile camshaft and/or porting the exhaust ports on your cylinder head. If you do decide to port, you can also see if you can get your turbo manifolds ports to match up with the new size to make it more of an efficient exhaust flow (better flow of exhaust energy).
3. Get your turbo manifold coated. This will exhaust energy from leaving the manifold and going where you want that energy to go torwards...your turbine.
There are probably other ways but it's 2:11 AM CST and I'm tired & working lol.
If you have any further questions, feel free to ask.
I always find myself agreeing with you.
Complementing the above post...the 50 trim is a good turbo...but personally I would take a GT30R over just about anything else. Spool time is reasonably fast while power can be near 500hp. Something else I'll add about LAG...let's say you use a GT40R with 18psi and pump gas. It doesn't make 80% boost until about 6000RPM's (reasonably on a stock LSJ). Well, your making 14.5 psi at 6k and probably producing close to 500hp. Does that mean that until you hit substantial boost that your lagging so much that you feel little or no acceleration at all prior to the turbo's maximum effeciency RPM? OF course not. Fact is..even though at 4000RPM's you were only producing .5 bar..you were still making 300+hp and probably something similar in torque...which means your car was STILL accelerating faster than it ever did with the M62...even half way through the power band. (This is just an example, I don't expect these numbers to be dead on accurate)
GT28RS, T3/T04E 50 Trim, GT30R, SC60-1/SC61, GT35R
These are the best turbo's for the street in my opinion, all of which make 300+whp.
Starting from left to right the turbo's get a little bigger each time. The first 3 are very nice turbo's for a solid running Balt...expect low 12's and some 11's as well when using these turbo's in their efficiency range. They usually make anywhere from 250whp(low boost) to 400+whp using almost 20psi in Honda's...so compare the differences. If I were you I would look into 2.0L built Honda turbo motors to do research and comparison to get a good iead what turbo's do what as far as dyno numbers (perhaps look into the H22 as well as the B20 motors)...those engines only revv around 8K or so when turbo'ed on the street..which is somewhat similar to the LSJ. Most of the strokes are 89mm, with usually a alittle smaller bore than the LSJ. Anyhow...the last two turbo's will give you a bit of lag...but produce way beyond 500whp. Something close to 600whp. Those turbo's are for the most serious of street cars and are personally not recommended just because the power is honestly beyond usability in MOST cases. You don't need a car that burns every gear but 5th out while gunnin' it down the highway.
The key is really getting a turbo that gives substantial power at medium boost (10-12psi) while not allowing so much low RPM boost response issues. The GTR ball bearing turbo's are best at reducing this "LAG" or boost response. So personally I would use the GT30R because you'll get about the same response as the GT28RS (probably something around 3800RPM to 4000RPM) before you hit some pretty good boost and yet it will make power easily to 7K+ RPM's. Easily. You could achieve a 3500RPM power band of 300+whp @ medium boost on a completely stock motor I think, if you use the GT30R. Hope this helps...
Last edited by Fueledpassion; 12-01-2006 at 11:34 AM.
11-13-2006, 06:18 PM
#30
Senior Member
Originally Posted by Bad06SS
Thank you, and thank you to NJHK as well and everyone else. I'm interested in a ball-bearing turbo. I actually was looking at ATP turbo's site, is there such a thing as a dual ball bearing? I thought I saw somthing like that on there, but I know very little about turbo's. I"ll check into this GT2971R, and a 50 trim. Is ATP a good place to buy from? Thanks!
ATP is a good place to buy from. I only bought one item from them but things went smoothly.
If you ever have any questions, just send me PM and I'll see what I can do.
If you want more of a listing of the parts you would need, I did a write up on "How To: Build your own ECOTEC Turbo Kit": http://www.ecotecforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35
Also, there is the Turbo FAQ we did: http://www.ecotecforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1024
I think there is a such thing as dual ball-bearing. I need to read more up on ball bearing turbochargers.
11-13-2006, 06:21 PM
#32
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The ground work we laid for our twincharged application we spec'd a Holset HX35W Internal Wastegated unit for our application. I worked out the efficiency charts for a 3.8" blower pulley and it puts the Holset right in its happy efficiency range. Hoping to make it work on the 60lbers if not fabbing a resistor harness to support up to 90lbers from siemens deka. I can keep you all updated as we move on with it. BTW Witt's car is getting all the work first. He has the most money lol.
Dan
Dan
11-13-2006, 06:22 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by NJHK
It's no problem.
ATP is a good place to buy from. I only bought one item from them but things went smoothly.
If you ever have any questions, just send me PM and I'll see what I can do.
If you want more of a listing of the parts you would need, I did a write up on "How To: Build your own ECOTEC Turbo Kit": http://www.ecotecforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35
Also, there is the Turbo FAQ we did: http://www.ecotecforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1024
I think there is a such thing as dual ball-bearing. I need to read more up on ball bearing turbochargers.
ATP is a good place to buy from. I only bought one item from them but things went smoothly.
If you ever have any questions, just send me PM and I'll see what I can do.
If you want more of a listing of the parts you would need, I did a write up on "How To: Build your own ECOTEC Turbo Kit": http://www.ecotecforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35
Also, there is the Turbo FAQ we did: http://www.ecotecforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1024
I think there is a such thing as dual ball-bearing. I need to read more up on ball bearing turbochargers.
+1 from what I've read on Adam's (right name right?) site they have tons of useful info there.
11-13-2006, 06:24 PM
#34
Senior Member
Originally Posted by djt81185
+1 from what I've read on Adam's (right name right?) site they have tons of useful info there.
And yes, we are trying to build a nice information base...kind of like an "ECOTEC library" and have as many write ups as possible.
You're welcome to join
Sorry for getting off topic! More turbo talk!
11-13-2006, 06:25 PM
#36
Senior Member
Originally Posted by djt81185
The ground work we laid for our twincharged application we spec'd a Holset HX35W Internal Wastegated unit for our application. I worked out the efficiency charts for a 3.8" blower pulley and it puts the Holset right in its happy efficiency range. Hoping to make it work on the 60lbers if not fabbing a resistor harness to support up to 90lbers from siemens deka. I can keep you all updated as we move on with it. BTW Witt's car is getting all the work first. He has the most money lol.
Dan
Dan
11-13-2006, 06:26 PM
#37
Senior Member
Originally Posted by Bad06SS
Great posts! Thanks! You guys have been very informative. You're right, I don't want somthing that's literally not streetable. I'll take the advice you guys have given and do some research. 
Just PM me if you have any questions as far as the write ups I made.
Good luck.
11-13-2006, 06:39 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by NJHK
I'd like to hear more about this project...
Having this info we determined the turbo needs to provide roughly 11-12 psi to the s/c to make 22psi manifold pressure. At this PR and airflow the turbo just clears the stall area and hit the heart of the efficiency range on the compressor map.
Were using the ebay ecotec turbo manifold. We will use the stock ss/sc liquid to air intercooler tho prob converted to dual pass. Were working on trying to figure out where to place the MAF...I want to do it outside teh turbo where the air isnt turbulent and use a bypass valve. Some people want it after teh turbo and run an atmospheric BOV.
The bov vacuum source will be off the lsj intake manifold tap to the boost controller and the stock ss/sc electronic bypass actuator line will be rerouted to the turbo wastegate so the car will still be using the stock ecu to control the turbo's boost (al's is an 06 so its all tq based tho...my 05 is boost based.)
Other possible problem is exceeding the stock cars 2.5 bar map sensor and the SCIP sensor seeing boost and possibly throwing a voltage too high code and commanding p0068 (limp mode). Other than that I don't really think it'll be that hard.
Dan
11-13-2006, 06:53 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by djt81185
Well we figured out what psi approx the blower is going to be running with the 3.8"(The reason for this size is to keep blower rpm down where its most efficient and rely more on turbo boost since the Holset likes/needs to boost to be efficient). From this converted it to an effective displacement figuring 2.0+(2.0*(PSI/14.7Atmospheric pressure)) for its displacement then calculated its airflow requirements. Not to mention we also calculated the ratio of air compresion for the blower since at each pulley size it compresses air by a ratio.
Having this info we determined the turbo needs to provide roughly 11-12 psi to the s/c to make 22psi manifold pressure. At this PR and airflow the turbo just clears the stall area and hit the heart of the efficiency range on the compressor map.
Were using the ebay ecotec turbo manifold.
Having this info we determined the turbo needs to provide roughly 11-12 psi to the s/c to make 22psi manifold pressure. At this PR and airflow the turbo just clears the stall area and hit the heart of the efficiency range on the compressor map.
Were using the ebay ecotec turbo manifold.
Originally Posted by djt81185
We will use the stock ss/sc liquid to air intercooler tho prob converted to dual pass. Were working on trying to figure out where to place the MAF...I want to do it outside teh turbo where the air isnt turbulent and use a bypass valve.
Some people want it after teh turbo and run an atmospheric BOV.
Some people want it after teh turbo and run an atmospheric BOV.
Originally Posted by djt81185
The bov vacuum source will be off the lsj intake manifold tap to the boost controller and the stock ss/sc electronic bypass actuator line will be rerouted to the turbo wastegate so the car will still be using the stock ecu to control the turbo's boost (al's is an 06 so its all tq based tho...my 05 is boost based.)
Originally Posted by djt81185
Other possible problem is exceeding the stock cars 2.5 bar map sensor and the SCIP sensor seeing boost and possibly throwing a voltage too high code and commanding p0068 (limp mode). Other than that I don't really think it'll be that hard.
11-14-2006, 03:01 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by NJHK
Yes, that is possible and what some people do. Some people want their power (max power) to hit higher in the RPM band for traction reasons or just for reasons that they need more high end power than low end power. Remember, the larger the turbine, the slower it will spin...the slower it spins, the later in the RPM band your powerband will be.
Hopefully this makes sense. I'm tired lol
Hopefully this makes sense. I'm tired lol
11-14-2006, 04:04 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by Bad06SS
Thank you, and thank you to NJHK as well and everyone else. I'm interested in a ball-bearing turbo. I actually was looking at ATP turbo's site, is there such a thing as a dual ball bearing? I thought I saw somthing like that on there, but I know very little about turbo's. I"ll check into this GT2971R, and a 50 trim. Is ATP a good place to buy from? Thanks!
11-14-2006, 06:06 PM
#43
Senior Member
Originally Posted by vwnut21
this is true, but you can also overspin the turbo if its not big enough.
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