swazzees

Obviously but, the guy who cares about what kind of work he does.....does a really good job.
My tech..well......I work there, but hes been selected to take car of my car....does a job you wouldnt believe

YelloEye

iTrader: (3)

I don't have a dealer like that here. They forget tools in my car. They leave stuff undone.

Hugger1975

^^exacty why i drove 1.5 hour 65 miles to CED.

have you looked up all dealers within 50 miles?
google....then call them all and ask, "have you done an lnf stage 1 yet."

if not......click.
move to next dealer

misterspockyall

I agree, I drove (a little too far haha) for CED/Rochenback to do the install. They did a great job though, love the kit.

CrateEngineDepot

iTrader: (5)

It's never too far to drive to CED...

CaptainXS

Wow.... Ok... there is sooo much mis-information flying around out here.... I just need to step in and clear a few things up.....

This gets messy because the GM stage kit is designed for anyone, ages 16 and up.... no skill needed other than drive to dealer, drive home with big smile and empty wallet... But those who get it start reading about all this super advanced tuning stuff that is way over most peoples heads. I am talking about things like "learn down" and "ECU OS"

there are 2 different things that fall under the name of "tuning" they usually go hand in hand... but they are not the same... and that is important regarding the stage kit.

1. Calibration... this is the actual "tuning" where you are just making sure all your instruments are setup and working right... like "tuning" a piano or guitar..... or calibrating a scientific instument.... making sure it is all accurate and working as it should be. everything looks and sounds right... everything is in focus and on key.... This is like "training" In a computer controlled car the car's computer is programmed to the engine and parts as it came from the factory, and a little wiggle room is built in. When you change any parts on the car... it is a good idea to "re-calibrate" the computer... just like when you get new tires you should get them balanced... when you replace a steering or suspension part you should get an alignment.. same goes for your engine... if you put on a intake, or exhaust, or cams, or whatever... you should get it tuned. the more extreme the parts the more important this is... an air filter, no biggie... but a full cold air intake, or a 3" cat back exhaust, well yeah... What it does is make sure everything still works together and plays nice. Yes you can play a out of tune piano, yes you can drive a car without balanced tires and no alignment.... but will any of it work nearly as well as a nicely calibrated version of the same thing... no where close....
think of a 3rd grade "music class concert" versus an orchestra performance. (its all about the practice and training... both are music... but which you you prefer to listen to?)

2. Performance mods... This is usually what people THINK of when they hear tuning. It is tuning, but in a different way... think of it like an old school (non digital) radio.... calibration is like the tuner knob... the knob you use to get the station to come in clear... then performance mods are the volume knob. if you crank the volume but you have the station all fuzzy you will just be blasting garbage and static... and can possibly blow a speaker... (think about driving a car with unbalanced tires at 90mph... a whole lot more noticeable than at 35mph) But assuming you have the calibration right... then this part can be alot of fun. tuning for performance is primarily taking the "wiggle room" out of your "generically safe" factory program. If you notice the SS turbo does not "require premium fuel" but when you add the stage kit... suddenly you need hi octane.. and you get a sticker to remind you... that is because the stage kit trades in the "safety" of low octane for the fun of high octane... the car from the factory is designed to "safely" run on any fuel. the stage kit is less safe and needs more care....


The big point i would like to make here is this....

the STAGE kit ASSUMES your car is still all stock as it came from the factory...

If you are buying the stage kit, you probably dont want to void a warranty, so only buy GM parts... well... the only GM approved non-voiding-warranty upgrades for the SS turbo is the Stage kit. Sooooo... the stage kit skips over the "calibration" part of "tuning" since it assumes you are bone stock... (why balance tires that are already balanced from the factory)... and just goes right on to the performance mods... cranking up the volume of the channel that gm dialed in for you at the plant.
but if you messed with the station controls (modified the car physically... intake exhaust turbo intercooler charge pipe downpipe etc...) and you throw the stage kit on... you may quickly find out just how "out of tune" you are....

just wanted to point out what a few people said they may cause some confusion...

the cars are not canned... and to my knowledge there is no "learn down" that was "programmed in" purposely to keep our cars from going faster... It is all in the natural way the computer works on these cars... if you add a part to the car that comes with new features... but dont tell the car how to use the features... it will just use them the same way it did with the old parts... the "calibration" part of tuning is what teaches the engine to make use of added features. (do you know how to use EVERY button on the remote for your cable box? nope, probably not... and i am guessing you just dont press the ones you dont know what they do... your car is the same way)

that is NOT CORRECT at all..... and this is very misleading.... It is ONLY correct in the assumption that your car is all stock and stays as such.... And in the case of the person asking if he needed to get RE-tuned... one can assume he was already TUNED once before if he is asking about RE-tuning... so i would say HECK YES... if you needed to be tuned before the stage kit... i would say you sure as heck will want to get re-tuned when you are throwing an extra 40hp down.

the stage kit is not in any way a "self calibrating, all aware, teach itself, all knowing" computer... i find this statement to be much like "maintenance free" batteries... or "run flat" tires... Yes... it means you can get away being somewhat of a slacker with your battery... and you can blow out your tire and still hobble to safety... but you cant neglect the battery and drive with no air in your tires... and expect it to run right forever....
Due to the higher demands of the stage kit... you will be more likely to notice gains from upgraded parts than you would from those same parts without the stage kit... like i said... the volume knob... you notice more when things are blasting than when they are whispering softly.
so yes you will get more out of your parts (exhaust, intercooler, intake, whatever) with the stage kit than without it.... but you SHOULD always calibrate (tune or re-tune) your car any time you add different parts. Slapping on a bunch of performance parts on a car without tuning everything to work right together is alot like thinking that you can take the wheels and tires off your SUV and put them on a cobalt just because "well they both have 5 lugs, so it should fit!"
calibration is important.... and it becomes more and more important the more you push, and expect to squeeze out of your car. yeah at 25mph you dont need much of an alignment, or balanced tires, or shocks, or tread on your tires, or brake pads, or air pressure... heck... a riding lawn mower could probably handle 25mph.... but try 35... 45... 65.... you will start to see why... now think about 105mph that you will likely hit at the end of the quarter mile drag strip... at that speed... and engine revving at 6000+ rpm... you might want to give some thought to details.... I for one would much rather have the security of knowing my car is tuned and calibrated to handle those situations properly... than i would worry about "warranty" covering it.... to me it is like the old saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" If you do things properly... you should never need to make use of a warranty.

so in short.... if you are worried about warranty... stay all stock... or stage kit only....
but if you want anything other / more than stock, or stock with stage1... then YES i STRONGLY suggest you get tuned for whatever else you do to it.... and NO the stage kits will not "calibrate" anything for you.

(stage kit or not, if you throw a catless downpipe, a short ram intake, full exhaust, and a bunch of other mods... but dont tune anything... you will find yourself needing warranty work... but getting denied for certain.... so stay stock... or get tuned... anything else you are asking for trouble)




But with all that said.... I have heard great things about the stage kit, and about CED here....
So if you are going to buy the stage kit... This is the guy to get it from...


PS. any of you running the stage kit... i would love to hear what quarter mile times you are getting with it.

More_Torque_More_HP

You are miss informed on some of you statements above. The calibration or production "tune" is a torque based calibration. It is looking for a pre programmed torque value calculated by a troque model using all of the sensor inputs. If on a production vehicle your engine was at the low limit of production build for displacement and compression ratio it would normally put out less that 260 lb-ft of torque. The production calibration will see, using the math model and comparing it to current parameters that it is not producing engough torque and will increase the boost to make up for it. The contrary also true. If the calibration sees it is putting out too much power do to build issues or added on parts then the torque output will exceed the calibrated torque model and the calibration will reduce boost, among other things to bring the torque back in line to the production 260 lb-ft

On the stage kit the "learn down" portion of this has been "turned off" so if you put on an aftermarket (doesn't matter which brand) air inlet system or exhaust system you will get the full advantage of the added torque and power and the calibration will not learn it out.

There may still be things that may cause check engine lights and could be "tuned" by someone. The prime example of this is the air flow meter reading with different inlets. If the inlet does place the air flow meter in a proper location away from bends, etc. a check engine light will be turned on.

The stage kit was designed to be used with other mods.

Bill

JPizzle

You are a genius.

Staged07SS

iTrader: (25)

Bill is a great guy, and a huge asset to the Cobalt Community !!

CaptainXS

Yes, I agree with you on most of that.... I think we are saying the same thing in different ways. i was trying to keep it in "laymens terms" so as not to confuse the mainstream people even more (this is a for sale thread in a vendors forum, not the tuning section, so just trying to help the people who just want to pay a little to go faster"

The term "learn down" itself is very misleading... makes it sound like gm is TRYING to null and void the advantage of adding aftermarket parts. ( i would love to know where that term even came from. Fairly certain it is nothing that GM published) that is not the case... it is just the way the stock program is written... as you explained, the computer knows where it is supposed to be running... and tries to keep it there. so if it isnt told "hey this intake and exhaust flows enough air to support 20hp more than stock" then it just assumes "oh boy something is off... dont worry i will adjust for it"
So i assume in order for this "learn down" to have been "removed", they must have done away with the "torque based calibration" model? If so... what have they used in its place? To me it sounds more like they kept the torque based model, and just raised the upper level so it isnt quite so quick to knock you back "in the range"... similar to removing a rev limiter or speed governor.... if you are cut off at 6k rpm and limited to 105mph... (figures made up for example) doesnt matter what you do to the car, add a turbo, a blower, nitrous, shave 1000 pounds off the car... it will still stop you at 6k and 105mph. taking the limiter off does not GIVE you the ability to go 150mph and rev to 8k... you may find that with them removed you could only rev to 6200 and hit 110mph... that may be all your "parts" are capable of. but at least with them removed... now when you add "go-fast" parts... they will help you to get past 6k and 105... not just get you to them and cut you off faster.

But this still does not mean that you have the ability to modify anything you want and the car will magically know just how to use it and take advantage of its full potential. It just means "yeah you will actually notice more of a gain when you put on performance parts."

Perfect example... when i had my cobalt all stock.... it ran great... well i got a great deal on a ton of aftermarket parts... short ram intake, charge pipes, turbo down pipe, K&N filter.... i put them all on the car.... and took it for a spin... it actually ran like crap for a short while till the computer figured out how different things were... (adjusting fuel trims and such) and then it seemed to run pretty good... and had a little bit more power... semed to use a little more gas... but i expected alot more out of the parts. and sure enough after a couple days it felt almost stock again... So this is the "learn down" in action.... Well when i scanned the car... even though it seemed to run fine... the scanner showed it was running crazy rich... (fuel trims off the charts) i pulled a spark plug to confirm this, and the plug was black as night.... this was all due to the performance parts throwing off the calibration. So for fear of hurting my engine, i broke down and "calibrated" it... got rid of the rich condition, got my MPG back, car ran better.... and then i went ahead and added some performance tweaks to the tune... to take advantage of the performance parts i put on... and holy cow... it made a ridiculous difference. Now even other cobalt SS turbo owners ride in my car and ask "darn ken, what did you do to this? it is so fast!" If I hadnt calibrated everything i would still be running rich, would likely have fouled my plugs, misfired like crazy, shaken my engine to bits, and still be running about the same as stock...
the only thing the STAGE kit would have done for me is given me a little more umph. I highly doubt it would have corrected for my fuel trims showing 20-30 points rich. I know it would not have recalibrated my MAF sensor to work with my intake. I highly doubt it would have known that it could tolerate more EGT and more aggresive timing due to the downpipe.... The stage kit does not know what parts you install, or how to adjust to take advantage of them. All it does is turns up the volume...

It takes advantage of the features that the car came with.... and is BETTER ABLE to make use of other parts.... But it is no substitute for a proper tune and calibration.... Yes, it would make a better "starting point"... but this is not the end all be all... unless you ONLY have a stock cobalt with the stage kit... then yes... it is good to go.

but i dont care what parts you put on to which car... you wont get the full advantage of the parts unless everything is adjusted to work together.... you cant add a blower/turbo without adjusting timing, and adding fueling to match the added air flow. You cant just add bigger injectors unless you tell the computer what injectors you put in. Well... you can... I guess... you CAN do anything... it MAY work... probably not WELL... and likely not for very long... The right way to do it is to tune after every significant mod. If you dont care about "the right way" then you can save $500 and do the "Hill Billy Stage kit" all you need is a pair of $5 mini vicegrips... clamp them on to the boost reference line between the turbo and the wastegate cotrol solenoid... poof you now have 26psi for $5.... well at least until your turbo burns up and the cat melts and you snap a rod from detonation.....

the stage kit is the RIGHT way to get more power from a stock cobalt.

Tuning is the RIGHT way to get more power out of a modified cobalt.

The Stage Kit AND TUNING is the best way to get the most power out of a significantly modified cobalt.

there are too many "wrong ways" and "other ways" to bother listing....


I am not arguing with bill.... we are saying the same thing... for the most part.... i am just pointing out....

1. you do not NEED the stage to avoid "learn down" any good tune will adjust the torque model to accommodate your mods.

2. the stage does not eliminate the need for proper tuning and calibration of aftermarket parts. it just lets you get more out of them without a tune.


If i am WRONG on any of this please tell me... I know i am not explaining everything in all its details... I am not going into the the physics and math behind it all... just trying to keep it on the surface here... but is my general statement not true?

Staged07SS

iTrader: (25)

CaptainXS .... you do realize you are debating with one of the GM engineers (More Torque More HP) who designed the LNF Stage Kit right ??

CaptainXS

I did in fact see that he is a GM Engineer... And he obviously knows his stuff... What all he has worked on at work, or where he went to school, or whatever else, nope... no idea...
And yes.... I am "debating" with him... not fighting or arguing or claiming i know more than him... merely discussing the misconceptions that are floating around... Trying to help myself and others understand this all and make an educated decision.

An old boss of mine once pointed out to me that "the best technician usually makes the worst salesman" They know SOOO much about the item that they often confuse and intimidate a casual shopper with technical details and fancy terms...

I am merely trying to understand what Bill knows and translate it so that Johny down the street who just turned 18 and bought a cobalt SS and heard that "the stage kit adds 40 horsepower and lets you add all the parts you want and you wont ever need to tune anything!" So he goes out and replaces his stock intake tract with a small filter right on the turbo... buys some charge pipes with a blow off valve... and zip ties his MAF to the firewall... and is upset because it runs like crap and throws codes "but a GM engineer told me the stage kit never needs a tune... it will just take advantage of any parts i put on it"

I mean who would buy HP Tuners for $700 or a one time Trifecta Tune for $350, or waste $50 a pass on the dyno.... when you can have the stage kit for $500 that will give you all the same performance of custom tuning, and never need adjusted no matter what you add to the car.

i think there is just a good bit getting lost in translation...

More_Torque_More_HP

The LNF is a torque based calibration. I expect in the future you will see more cars going to this. The torque based calibration has a torque model or a target torque. The torque based model expects that the driver is asking based on his pedal position and engine speed a specific torque not just a throttle position as with most other calibrations.

Since it is a torque based calibration the model knows based on the parameter inputs, MAP Temperature, Barometer, Coolant temp, etc., what the torque should be. It then looks at these parameters can determine if the engine is putting out too much or too little torque. The adjustments were designed to take into account any build variations in the engine and produce the same power and torque from each engine. An unfortunate side affect of these learn features is that added parts that increase power are detected by the torque modeling and the calibration learns them out (learn down).

One major advantage of this torque based calibration is that the car sold in Denver still puts out 260 lb-ft of torque. same as the car sold in Miami. The car in denver if it travels to Miami will it will have 260 lb-ft of torque and the Miami car traveling to Denver will still have 260 lb-ft.

The stage kit modifys the calibration to target a higher torque value and then it calibrates out the ability to learn down. The ability to learn up is still active. The learn or torque adjust feature is a different part of the software and is adjusted separatly from the torque curve them selves.

Your example above of fuel trims being off is most likely due to the MAF sensor not reading the air flow correctly with the intake sytem you have installed. Fuel trim is a totally different thing than the learn down feature. The O2 sensors adjust the fueling based what the calibration tells it to fuel based on the amount of air flowing into the engine. The MAF sensor uses a velocity type reading ann temperature reading. If for example you put a 4" diameter system where a 3" diameter system was the air meter will read less air at each thottle position. That shifts the fuel corrections. When learned if you have not done something crazy the fuel trims should be able to bring the fueling back to what is commanded. The fuel trim tables will be shifted but the final fuel ratio would be ok (with-in limits).

The torque learning is going on at the same time and will be reducing the torque back to production, unless you have the stage kit calibration.

First I can not recommend that you tune anything. That being said. If you make hardware changes that exceed the limits of the calibration to adjust then the calibration needs to be update for whatever you have installed that exceeds the limits.

The stage kit, if you make it flow air better on the inlet and or exhaust will not reduce the power gained by the changes. IT WILL NOT adjust the MAF calibration so that the fueling adjustments are centered around zero. IT WILL ADJUST for changes in the "charge air temperature". That means if you improve your intercooler to make the incoming air cooler the stage kit calibration understands this and will give you the increased power that cooleer temperatures bring.

Permafried-

^^^^
Excellent post(s), very informative, thanks Bill!

Now that the warmer weather is here, the snow is gone and I'm not trashing my snow tires all I can say is I am more than happy with the GMS1. I'm currently in the market for a set of tires (since the stock Contis like to let go in 2nd gear far too often and are like pontoons in the rain) that will help with 2nd gear traction. Sure I could use throttle control, but what's the fun of that .

*waits patiently for Darryl's outburst since his kit was going in today*
Would you like me to come out to your neck of the woods and see who is the better drive now that we're even. I'll even give you the benefit of having no spare tire in your trunk .

jsscooby

this is such an informative thread.

Permafried-

Agreed; I knew some about our ECM and the GMS1, on top of that my daily experience said "yep this tune is far superior to stock" and any issue I had with the stock tune are now a thing of the past ('cept gas mileage I CANNOT stay off the gas ). Then Bill comes in and drops so much good information I had to read it 3 times at work to soak it all in .

snoftall

Alright, so just to make sure I'm understanding what your saying here Bill:

1) If you have the Stage Kit installed, and you install a Cold Air Intake, the power gains (i.e. horsepower and torque which the CAI adds) will remain, and the computer will not adjust for this increase in torque? So throwing in random numbers, if you made 320 ft-lb with the stock intake, and the CAI is supposed to add 10 ft-lb, then the engine will actually produce 330 ft-lb, and the computer won't "learn down" the added torque, and reduce it back down to the original 320?

2) If the intake causes your engine to start burning rich, the computer will not adjust the fuel injection, and you will continue to burn rich?

3) If you install an aftermarket intercooler, the power gains (again the extra horsepower and torque which the colder charge air adds) will remain, and the computer will not adjust for this increase in power? So (throwing in the same random numbers from above), if you made 320 ft-lb with the stock intercooler, and the aftermarket one is supposed to increase it by 10 ft-lb, then the engine will actually produce 330 ft-lb, and the computer won't "learn down" the added torque, and reduce it back down to the original 320?

Are these statements correct? Or am I still missing the point?

More_Torque_More_HP

See answers below in blue:

snoftall

awesome! thanks for clearing that up!!

CaptainXS

Just to add in some info that again is being left out... One of the primary goals of "tuning for performance" is to trade in some of the cars "wiggle room" and safety nets for some extra power. To get it dialed in and programmed to take advantage of everything the car has to offer, all the features, and gains your parts and engine offers... as well as environmental issues. As bill pointed out, a car in denver with the thin air will run much different than a car at sea level... and a car in miami with the humidity and heat will run different than a car in canada with its cool dry air. So any tune from the factory has to stay "generic" enough to cover all situations. Gm doesnt know what kind of gas you are using (is it 87 octane from some gas-for-less that is watered down and 3 years old... or you getting 94 octane right from the tanker at the sunoco plant), what climate you are driving in, if you are a grocery getter or a drag racer. So these are all things that "universal tunes" like the stock tune, and the stage tune must leave wiggle room for. They tune modestly to account for the worst situations, and then add in sensors and tables and charts to adjust for changes in situations. on a hot day the baro sensor will tell the car it is hot, and the car will pull timing or other ways to prevent detonation. if your O2 sensor sees the car is running rich it will lean things out.. it is constantly monitoring everything and adjusting things as it goes. problem is that the more adjustments it has to make, the more work it is on the whole car... which in more cases than not, will cost you performance. Most all of the "adjustments" the computer makes are temporary... very little is stored long term.. so it has to re-adjust everything almost every time you start your car.

if you put on a ton of mods to increase airflow above stock.... you are going to be adding TONS of air to the engine... well the computer will see that on the sensors and "adjust for it", and will richen it up to keep it running safely... but think about walking on a balance beam... when you are looking at the beam trying not to fall off, with your arms out to the sides.... how easy is it to walk that straight line when you are constantly trying to adjust and balance... but do you have the same problems when you are walking a straight line down the sidewalk? when you are not thinking about it and adjusting for it. I would hope not... because when you dont have to think and adjust... and you are able to just walk without adjusting, it just works.. Same with the engine. If you could watch all the sensors of your engine as you drive it... you would see how frantically the computer is trying to battle to keep things "in range" all the time. But it is said that a well tuned car will run the same, if not better if you disable the sensors and "adjustments" and tell it to "walk the rope blindfolded".

In the past, and in almost every other car but the cobalt SS turbo... Driving was "adjusted" by the sensors... but as soon as you got on the throttle, many of the adjustments would be disabled, and you would be running on your "tune" alone... and this is where many people would put on all sorts of performance parts... and the car had lots more power driving around... but as soon as the stomped the gas the car would fall right on its face. That is because as soon as the car stoped "adjusting" you got a taste of just how bad your tune was off. Lucky for us... GM gave us LNF owners wideband O2 sensors which allow us to keep adjusting all the way to redline... but just because we CAN does not mean that we should.

would you rather sit on the shoulders of someone "adjusting their way" across a balance beam? or on the shoulders of someone confidently walking down the sidewalk?

so again... if your car is 100% stock... then the stage tune is perfect for you. but the more money you put into the car, the more it makes sense to tune it. If you are going to spend $800 for an intercooler, and $300 for a downpipe, and $500 for charge pipes, $400 for an intake, $1000 for tires, $600 for an exhaust..... Maybe i am crazy... but i would think it would be worth a couple hundred for a tune.. you put those parts on to GAIN performance... You spend a few thousand dollars to buy horsepower... but without a tune, even with stage 1.. you are only going to see maybe 80% of the potential. (guys dont sit on a dyno for hours and hours because it is fun)


Bill, is there anything here that is NOT true? If so please correct me....

the stage kit is a great thing... It does offer alot to both stock SS owners, as well as us modded guys... and i plan to put it on my car here soon... but i have no intention of leaving the computer to adjust for all my mods... I will most certainly be tuning both before and after the stage kit. It is a great thing... but it is not the final solution to all your performance wishes.

More_Torque_More_HP

See my comments below

Permafried-

Whoa, this I did not know. In other words I should be filling my car up with 94/93 now that the stage kit is installed and 91 in situations where either isn't available? I have been going 91 exclusively since I purchased the vehicle but this is good information. I was under the impression "Premium Required" simply meant always run 91 even if you have to give up your first born. I wasn't under the impression it meant the car was tuned for 93+ but 91 would still suffice. While I have never experienced knock on Sunoco 91 since owning the vehicle perhaps I should be switching to the highest octane available which is 94 down my street or 93 at Shell. Again, more good information, perhaps you should write an essay on how the GMS1 works

G Speed

^^^^^^^^^ Exactly what he said???

Should we be using 94

swazzees

94' since day 1

good reading....thanks Bill


BTW GMS1 rocks

G Speed

No need for 94 on stock tune....

but for the stage ?