differences between air to air and air to water
 

ok so i am about to completey redo my charge piping on my turbo setup, and i have been debating running an air to water intercooler vs my current air to air setup. mainly this car will be doing a lot of long distance top end runs on the autobahn, as well as some track time on the nurenburgring(sp*). i was thinking for this knd of endurance running i might wanna switch over to air to water set up like one of these:http://www.precisionturbo.net/interc...tegory_id=3052

for those who actually understand and are familiar with the difference, can you please explain to me the pro's and cons of both systems for my particular application.

thanks
jim

bump no one?....................

Pros:

Will make your intake temps even cooler.
Generally provide better horsepower numbers.

Cons:

Sometimes bulky. You'd have to have a catch can for all the ice.
Keeping intake temperatures down only lasts for a while, not meant for long period of time.

ok so air to air is definately better for my application. thanks dan, btw how's the car coming?

I'd do the air to air option on your car...hell that's even what's being put on mine due to the class rules. As for my car, hell if I know anymore. I'm just waiting patiently for that phone call saying everything is done come pick it up.

i know that air to air is more reliable over air to water because you dont have to worry about the pump going down and other bullshit. i will find the link. hold up

yah i'm allready air to air so i guess imma stay that way. i hate waiting for those phone calls too, it's like watching water boil!

no need to find the link, my first engine blew because of the pump failure.

A good read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercooler

air to liquid can be much more efficient for short runs. If you were doing drag racing events and stuff i'd say go for it because you could put an ice setup in there too. Air to Air, especially front mount (actually v mount is the best) will be by far the best as far as long distace/period of time runs go. You will maintain your intercooling efficiency for a long period of time. Go with air to air.

You stick your hand in 30 degree air its cold. You stick your hand in 30 degree water its really cold. Anyone know anything about conductive heat transfer?

Better yet. Its summer, 70F inside your house. Feels nice. Its winter, 70F inside your house. Feels colder. Anyone know anything about radiation heat transfer?

look at it this way...the water thats cooling your intake charge in a air to water system can heatsoak after longer exposure to heat, whereas the air thats cooling the intake charge in an air to air system cannot heatsoak as its different air molecules all the time. However, as lewis said above, water is a much better conductor of heat, and can hold more joules of heat energy per gram.

basically, water will yield better intake temps, but will heatsoak after awhile, whereas air will not be quite as good as water, but will never heatsoak

define v-mount

The intercooler is in a diagonal position instead of being perpendicular to the ground. It doesn't always work that well, but in many cases you can increase air flow to the intercooler and radiator, have better airflow characteristics, lesss piping, etc. Usually pretty expensive tho because you can't jus tach it on the front.

aaaannnnndddd what's your point?

See hunterkillers post right below mine.

so basically you were just stating why everyone before you said what they did? from the context it sounded like you were disagreeing with us.

If you want better results go with a better Air to Air setup... ie: better core... might cost you a lot more money but you will see 100x better results than running some of these other Air to Air setups which are out there....

-Karo

btw good luck with getting that 30* water LOL

Won't water freeze at or below 32*F ?

-Karo

You are all rookies. Conductive heat trasfer of air is .025 W/m*K. Liquid water's conductive heat transer is .6 W/m*K. Thats right, a water-air heat exchanger will HEAT EXCHANGE 24 times better than air to air, but what does the mechanical engineer know? Why do you think they dont use air-air for your engine cooling system? You wanna argue with me about heat soak? Ill ask you again, why dont they use air/air for the engine's coolant system?

no need to get angry...and who is this even directed to? isnt everyone agreeing with us...?

No everyone is saying to go air/air.

^^^^^^

While your absolutely right, that works the other way too. Once the heat is in the system, you have to get rid of it. A front mount HE will of course pull a large amount of the heat out of the system, but is not perfect, and will retain a certain amount of heat.
We all have to realize that neither system is perfect, and both have their disadvantages. Many time it's all about preference.

Although, i will comment on the engine cooling part... water to air does a far better job of keeping the motor more consistent as far as cooling, resulting in better engine efficiency. IMO, they are two different systems (engine coolant, IC coolant), as one regulates heat, the other is intended to provide maximum cooling.

lol you are so cocky with your mechanical engineering degree. How many times have you brought that up, oversimplified things, then gotten proven wrong? I am giving you the facts...you can think about why. If you can't figure it out after thinking about it i will explain, but a air/liquid intercooler is better for short periods of time. Air to air is better for long period...of course this is with comparable systems.

I disagree. And gave you the science to prove it.

As a matter of fact the air/water intercooler would highly outperform an air/air over any given time. 3 seconds or 3 days with the exact same surface area for cooling. I.E. you have a water/air with 500 cm^3 of surface area and you have air/air with 500cm^3 of surface area. The water/air >>>>> air/air in any situation. I cant think of one single instance where the air/air would be better. Please dont say, "well why are all the turbo cars air/air from the factory?"

Its cheaper, simpler (no pumps, wiring ect), and does a good enough job.


Sorry if im coming off as a dick, but I am having a bad day and I dont want people going around looking like idiots.


Lets say you heatsoak the media inside the air/air and heat the air up to 500degrees. Then you heat soak the media inside a water/air to 500 degrees. The air/water will cool faster, even though you just heat soaked the SHIT out of it.

keep in mind the science behind an air/air intercooler is completely different AND the air cooling the core in an air/air intercooler is CONSTANTLY being replaced with ambient air, while an air/liquid intercooler uses a closed loops system (as far as the liquid being used goes, not the air being cooled). If you could have new cold water being poured in their every time you get some heat soak it would be great, but that's not how it works.

You think the water in a water/air HE would be hotter than intake air after a turbo even thought the water/air in closed loop for the water/air and open loop for the air/air? :wtf: