Opinions on K&N Drop In
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From: Edmonton
Opinions on K&N Drop In
I haven't run a K&N filter in my car(s) for a while now and to be honestly I'm usually not very sold on them either. My older cars were usually under 200hp and I never noticed a real gain in power or fuel economy when switching over. First of all, with the learn down diasbled (maybe yes, maybe no on GMS1, never seem to get a solid answer on these boards), would I gain any power? I'm not really sure how GM set up the GMS1 tune and if the learn down is truly deactivated.
On top of that little fact, does the K&N oil based filter (drop in) let a large amount of dust and dirt into the engine? I know they probably don't filter as well as a generic paper filter, but should it be anything worth concerning over? Also, I hear of people gumming up their sensors around the intake. Is this only from over-oiling the filter?
Lastly, is there a dry-flow alternative as far as drop in goes? I have not found one yet...I just worry most about messing up the sensors in the intake tract.
My filter is getting dirty so I'm looking at options, seeing as the price of a OEM filter is pretty much the same as a K&N.
On top of that little fact, does the K&N oil based filter (drop in) let a large amount of dust and dirt into the engine? I know they probably don't filter as well as a generic paper filter, but should it be anything worth concerning over? Also, I hear of people gumming up their sensors around the intake. Is this only from over-oiling the filter?
Lastly, is there a dry-flow alternative as far as drop in goes? I have not found one yet...I just worry most about messing up the sensors in the intake tract.
My filter is getting dirty so I'm looking at options, seeing as the price of a OEM filter is pretty much the same as a K&N.
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From: Kathmandu
You'll hear all sides of the story: they let more dirt in, they let more air in, they skew MAF readings, the oil gums up the MAF sensor, yada yada. All the tuners seem to be using them, so I guess they're okay unless you over-oil them. It's just something else for your dealer to point at when things go wrong, so be sure to take it out and put the factory filter back in when you go in for service.
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From: Edmonton
You'll hear all sides of the story: they let more dirt in, they let more air in, they skew MAF readings, the oil gums up the MAF sensor, yada yada. All the tuners seem to be using them, so I guess they're okay unless you over-oil them. It's just something else for your dealer to point at when things go wrong, so be sure to take it out and put the factory filter back in when you go in for service.
Had mine in for a week and half before i got the GMS1. instantly it felt better right off the line kinda like it was starving for air with the paper filter or something (the filter i had was not very dirty) i constantly noticed a bit of a studder at low rpm when starting in first. k&n in and studder gone completely. and also on cold starts just idling in first it would jerk allot unless you gave it a bit of gas. it doesnt anymore. felt like a bit of a power gain for the first half hour i had it in but then learn down seamed to nullify that.
over all impression. 3dollars less than my factory paper filter and i never have to buy one again=win
sounds nicer with spool up and BPV louder=WIN
definately makes the car feel more driveable low and middle range engine doesnt feel choked anymore=Win
Didnt have a paper filter in when i got my GMS1 but it still sounds and feels great, i imagine there is a small % more power throughout the powerband.
Im Happy with it=WIN
over all impression. 3dollars less than my factory paper filter and i never have to buy one again=win
sounds nicer with spool up and BPV louder=WIN
definately makes the car feel more driveable low and middle range engine doesnt feel choked anymore=Win
Didnt have a paper filter in when i got my GMS1 but it still sounds and feels great, i imagine there is a small % more power throughout the powerband.
Im Happy with it=WIN
I've been running one for almost a year with no problems. I have the air box mod with the AEM silicone elbow, and BYT said there was no skewing of the MAF at all when he tuned it.
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From: Tejas
General Explanation of "Learn Down"
To answer one of the questions of the OP:
"Learn Down" is a side effect of how the ECU is programmed to work. It has airload targets and it does its best to reach them (through the use of the throttle plate and turbo), and once it reaches it, it will stick to it. What some people were finding was that with bolt-ons, it allowed the engine to breathe easier, but all that ended up meaning was that the engine didn't need as much boost to hit the airload target and would stay at roughly the same power output.
With an aftermarket tune, these airload targets are raised to a point that the ECU cannot get to them, and in doing so, will call upon as much airflow as it can in its attempt to reach them (usually resulting in higher boost).
Will "Learn Down" ever be gone? Yes and no.
No, in the way that the ECU is programmed with airload targets means that no matter who tunes the car it will always have to have airload targets to try to reach. That's just how it thinks and understands.
Yes, in the fact that GMS1 and aftermarket tunes raise these airload targets to levels that the car may never reach, even with bolt-ons letting it breathe better (and so therefore power output will benefit from bolt-ons).
Hope this clears things up.
"Learn Down" is a side effect of how the ECU is programmed to work. It has airload targets and it does its best to reach them (through the use of the throttle plate and turbo), and once it reaches it, it will stick to it. What some people were finding was that with bolt-ons, it allowed the engine to breathe easier, but all that ended up meaning was that the engine didn't need as much boost to hit the airload target and would stay at roughly the same power output.
With an aftermarket tune, these airload targets are raised to a point that the ECU cannot get to them, and in doing so, will call upon as much airflow as it can in its attempt to reach them (usually resulting in higher boost).
Will "Learn Down" ever be gone? Yes and no.
No, in the way that the ECU is programmed with airload targets means that no matter who tunes the car it will always have to have airload targets to try to reach. That's just how it thinks and understands.
Yes, in the fact that GMS1 and aftermarket tunes raise these airload targets to levels that the car may never reach, even with bolt-ons letting it breathe better (and so therefore power output will benefit from bolt-ons).
Hope this clears things up.
Stamina...If I could hug you...I would...I wish ALL LNF owners understood that...I've been trying to preach that for quite a while...but some people will believe anything someone says when they know little on the topic (*cough* most GMS1 buyers *cough*).
https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l-lnf-performance-tech-153/learn-down-feature-still-present-w-gm-tune-166584/
https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l-lnf-performance-tech-153/learn-down-feature-still-present-w-gm-tune-166584/
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From: Edmonton
To answer one of the questions of the OP:
"Learn Down" is a side effect of how the ECU is programmed to work. It has airload targets and it does its best to reach them (through the use of the throttle plate and turbo), and once it reaches it, it will stick to it. What some people were finding was that with bolt-ons, it allowed the engine to breathe easier, but all that ended up meaning was that the engine didn't need as much boost to hit the airload target and would stay at roughly the same power output.
With an aftermarket tune, these airload targets are raised to a point that the ECU cannot get to them, and in doing so, will call upon as much airflow as it can in its attempt to reach them (usually resulting in higher boost).
Will "Learn Down" ever be gone? Yes and no.
No, in the way that the ECU is programmed with airload targets means that no matter who tunes the car it will always have to have airload targets to try to reach. That's just how it thinks and understands.
Yes, in the fact that GMS1 and aftermarket tunes raise these airload targets to levels that the car may never reach, even with bolt-ons letting it breathe better (and so therefore power output will benefit from bolt-ons).
Hope this clears things up.
"Learn Down" is a side effect of how the ECU is programmed to work. It has airload targets and it does its best to reach them (through the use of the throttle plate and turbo), and once it reaches it, it will stick to it. What some people were finding was that with bolt-ons, it allowed the engine to breathe easier, but all that ended up meaning was that the engine didn't need as much boost to hit the airload target and would stay at roughly the same power output.
With an aftermarket tune, these airload targets are raised to a point that the ECU cannot get to them, and in doing so, will call upon as much airflow as it can in its attempt to reach them (usually resulting in higher boost).
Will "Learn Down" ever be gone? Yes and no.
No, in the way that the ECU is programmed with airload targets means that no matter who tunes the car it will always have to have airload targets to try to reach. That's just how it thinks and understands.
Yes, in the fact that GMS1 and aftermarket tunes raise these airload targets to levels that the car may never reach, even with bolt-ons letting it breathe better (and so therefore power output will benefit from bolt-ons).
Hope this clears things up.
Good answer, much appreciated.
/End Thread
PS With your permission I would like to add this to the "All you need to know about different tunes" thread as it is a great simple explanation of Learn Down.
To answer one of the questions of the OP:
"Learn Down" is a side effect of how the ECU is programmed to work. It has airload targets and it does its best to reach them (through the use of the throttle plate and turbo), and once it reaches it, it will stick to it. What some people were finding was that with bolt-ons, it allowed the engine to breathe easier, but all that ended up meaning was that the engine didn't need as much boost to hit the airload target and would stay at roughly the same power output.
With an aftermarket tune, these airload targets are raised to a point that the ECU cannot get to them, and in doing so, will call upon as much airflow as it can in its attempt to reach them (usually resulting in higher boost).
Will "Learn Down" ever be gone? Yes and no.
No, in the way that the ECU is programmed with airload targets means that no matter who tunes the car it will always have to have airload targets to try to reach. That's just how it thinks and understands.
Yes, in the fact that GMS1 and aftermarket tunes raise these airload targets to levels that the car may never reach, even with bolt-ons letting it breathe better (and so therefore power output will benefit from bolt-ons).
Hope this clears things up.
"Learn Down" is a side effect of how the ECU is programmed to work. It has airload targets and it does its best to reach them (through the use of the throttle plate and turbo), and once it reaches it, it will stick to it. What some people were finding was that with bolt-ons, it allowed the engine to breathe easier, but all that ended up meaning was that the engine didn't need as much boost to hit the airload target and would stay at roughly the same power output.
With an aftermarket tune, these airload targets are raised to a point that the ECU cannot get to them, and in doing so, will call upon as much airflow as it can in its attempt to reach them (usually resulting in higher boost).
Will "Learn Down" ever be gone? Yes and no.
No, in the way that the ECU is programmed with airload targets means that no matter who tunes the car it will always have to have airload targets to try to reach. That's just how it thinks and understands.
Yes, in the fact that GMS1 and aftermarket tunes raise these airload targets to levels that the car may never reach, even with bolt-ons letting it breathe better (and so therefore power output will benefit from bolt-ons).
Hope this clears things up.
Last edited by tom.g; Apr 28, 2010 at 01:19 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
I saw noticeably higher airflow compared to the factory filter. I'll see if I can dig my logs up and I'll post them if I find them. I wish AmsOil made their nanofiber airfilters for our cars...I would love to do some logs comparing those 2!!
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From: Edmonton
I'm going to pick one up tomorrow, since I have some of the facts and opinions.
It also helps that the K&N filter is 47 bucks while the OEM filter is 60...kinda makes up your mind.
Canadian prices, performance shop vs. dealership.
It also helps that the K&N filter is 47 bucks while the OEM filter is 60...kinda makes up your mind.
Canadian prices, performance shop vs. dealership.
Last edited by Highbeamz; Apr 29, 2010 at 12:19 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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From: USA
Here's what Modified Mag said when they put a complete Typhoon System on a Stage 2 SC:
"This (Typhoon) added 11.4 WHP and 1.6 TQ at the high end of the curve ... very slight improvement in the 3500 to 5000 rpm range.
This says a few things ... in excess of 5250 RPM's to redline the K&N filter system will buy you a little power.
Your downsides are a more intensive air filter cleaning cycle.
In the midrange, it doesn't get you much at all ... a sliver of improvement."
This says a few things ... in excess of 5250 RPM's to redline the K&N filter system will buy you a little power.
Your downsides are a more intensive air filter cleaning cycle.
In the midrange, it doesn't get you much at all ... a sliver of improvement."
Eh...you're better off sticking with just the K&N filter unless you plan on spending A LOT...and I mean A LOT of time tuning your MAF and zeroing out your fuel trims. No matter who you get your car tuned by...you're going to need way more than one quick session of logs to get an aftermarket intake solved...many logs over a long period of time will be necessary to get things running optimally