Dude, you live like 5 blocks away from me, and Ive never met you. Youd think by now you would at least swing by to say hi, lol. But yeah dude, your a local guy even though i dont know you, If you needed help we would knock that **** out for you with the quickness, lol. Just let us know.

Nah man, sorry. I just got done doing some much needed work on my car, im flipping pooped. Though if your bored on the way home, give me a call, more than welcome to swing by here before you head up the hill. I can take a look at that sweet ass ride of yours, lol.

 

hear anything about those tires?

 

if thats the case...im gonna have to say you'd be faaar from flooding the engine. Its just throwing another 60lb injector in the mix then, and of course if you're seeing a normal AFR, then your other 4 injectors are comepnsating for the added fueling enough in your tune. It would maaybe flood if it was pure water injection...but you could run 6 M10 nozzles in place of your injectors and be just fine, give that methanol has a much lower AFR than gasoline.

AKA, i call BS, and prove why

 

ottp buys from a company in colorado springs
i forgot the damn companies name
they sell it for like 150 or something.

im goin 2 bed lates

 

You sir are correct, cant argue with anything you said here.
But when tuning for meth, you usually want to have a turn on setting at low psi. In our case, we usually shoot for about 5 or 7. Youll see that if you shift too hard. so going from stoich in the blink of an eye to at 5 psi with a m10 at low enough rpms with a tvs no less. What would you think would happen. your not going to have enough airflow to dissipate all that meth at once. Your going to risk running an incredibly lean afr with high timing from lower rpms and trying to have the meth compensate for it. Also I would bet the person tuning it wouldnt tune wot at those rpms anyways, because frankly you dont see it at all time. But it still does happen. You scoot along in first gear and see 5 psi and your not wot. bog. you shift hard into second, bog. Your in 5th gear on the freeway, and want to pass someone without having to get out of gear, bog. Granted, this could all be solved by picking up the turn on point for it to turn on. Or simply using the proper sized nozzle.
But nothing you said above is false what so ever. It comes down more so to doing these everyday things that are much over looked.

I know i used the word flooded. That was my fault, i should have been more careful with my choice of words. You bring up a damn good argument.

 

i cant say ive ever seen an AFR lower than 10.0:1 with rapid PE engagement or quick shifting/throttle position changes due to meth. You would need lower than a 8:1 to see a misfire due to too much fuel, and you can go as low as 2:1 and you wuldnt flood the engine. You know on VERY cold starts engines typically inject enough fuel to yield anywhere from a 6:1 t a 3:1 AFR, and clearly they dont flood.

I think you underestimate the amount of liquid it takes to flood an engine. So basically, a fast shift MIGHT yield a few misfires (i mean like .1 seconds worth, or 10 misfires), but wont do any damage/flood the engine/cause a loss of power outside of those misfires.

 

Then honestly, I take it you've never experimented with running larger nozzles on an underpowered car. Granted what you say may be true. But it may be safe to say you've never played with a 10gph nozzle on your car. If a fast shift MIGHT do those things, why do it knowing theres a chance that it COULD happen? Why not just use the PROPER nozzle? What benefits would occur from using such a large size nozzle? Cooling? I believe Corky bell said it best, that chemical intercooling is a band-aid fix for a poor intercooling system. Do I agree? Yes. Did that stop me (or anyone for that matter) from using it? No. Scientific explanation is all well and great in a perfect world. Real world experience teaches you these things otherwise. How else do you explain small pullied cars stuttering and bogging while running meth injection.
Would you call it a bad tune? Or would you call it too much meth? Or maybe both?
But as far are the scientific reasoning goes. I wont argue. But then again, I don't use meth nozzles as my injectors. So, you may know more about that subject than I. I however have a decent grip on how these cars react to meth.

Though, if were going to talk on the subject. We may as well compare apples to apples.
The subject on the matter at hand is if a 10gph nozzle is too large for a car making sub 300 hp.

First you have to look at the car itself. As I said, sub 300 hp car. With no where near enough air to make use of a 10gph nozzle.
Now add in the pump. Mind you the 10gph nozzle unless otherwise stated are measured at 100psi at the pump. Devils own lowest rated pump that they publicly sell on their site is 150. The AIS pumps are rated at 250 psi.
So now your dealing with a 250psi pump with a 10gph nozzle rated for 100psi. The nozzle is far from a 10gph nozzle now.
As i said my poor choice of words left me in a bind. but the only point im trying to get across is. Do you honestly feel that this car is really in need of such a nozzle?
Hell, do you honestly feel that this car is really in need of such a nozzle even if the pump was set at 100 psi?

That is the only real concern I have. It has nothing to do with nozzle injectors and flooding engines. (AGAIN my fault for the poor word choice) Merely the fact that im to believe a 10gph nozzle isnt needed on a sub 300hp car. Thats all.

Whether you agree or not, is up to you and the ppl whos car this is going on. You can sit here and question me on hypothetical questions that i will more than likely never experience in my life. I merely know what is going on in this situation. So dont hold it against me if i cant break out engineer tools and answer all your questions to your liking.
Im only a simple southern california tuner who has a little experiance tuning some of these cars. Im in no way the smartest person to know half of the things you said in your 2 posts. And I don't put myself out there to act like I am.
I hope this answer is to your liking.

 

I have seen 9gph nozzles ran on sub 300hp cars and they ran fine. allowed us t max the timing table. Is this needed? of course not. 91 octane isnt even needed. Does it benefit the car? certainly. you're replacing low octane fuel with high octane fuel...a fuel with a much lower stoich point, aiding in combustion chamber cooling. how does that NOT benefit the engine? lol.

Dont get me wrong shaun...i know you're a great tuner, and one of the first to break the 300whp mark on an m62 IIRC, but everyone is subject to learning, and if we disagree on a point, it never hurts to throw out our information that backs our argument so we can compare them and hopefully learn. Thats why we're all here, right?

Hell, Witt and area had a very long (i mean several pages) debate with ZZP about fueling issues in cyl #4, if the problem exists, and if so, what its causes are. At the end of the day, even the mighty Witt was completely proven wrong, and Area stated that Zoomer was right. Even the greatest tuners make mistakes, so in my mind, it never hurts to question them. They either prove themselves, and you klearn something or you disprove them, and prevent the spread of misinformation.

at any rate, im going to sleep. we'll continue in the AM i guess? lol

 

No, i totally agree with you. I read that entire thread on the fueling was a great read.
And I am fully aware of everything your saying is true. Im merely in disagreement on the nozzle usage. You used a 9gph nozzle to max a timing table. You never mentioned what psi the pump was at. But you said 9gph, so one can only assume the general 9gph @ 100 psi. Sure, thats all well and good. A bit overkill IMO. When i was running 91 with a 6gph @ 100 psi to max out timing table with a 19 psi pulley, I never once second guessed my decision to go against what the nozzle calculator told me. (noob i know, lol) There just was no point for me to do so. 6gph was m ore than enough for me. What more could i possibly benefit from? More octane? Lower injector duty cycles some more? The point is, anything more was just over kill. Granted the car in question had a tiny bit more power than the tvs car were talking about. So adding a VERY large nozzle to achieve the same thing, i feel is very unnecessary. As there is nothing more to gain from it. The cons in the scenario - more methanol to be wasted. Like most people, im a cheap m-fer, Id rather use the proper nozzle, get all the benefits, and save money in the process and use it towards other things.
I think in the practical. IMO there is nothing practical about a 10gph nozzle when a 6gph nozzle will do the same job, with room to spare.

Thanks for the kinds words, hardly needed. Im not much of a bragger when it comes to my car. It has always been slow, lol. I didn't want to give you the wrong impression that I was upset about our opinions. I know you have a very intellectual approach about just about anything you post about. Im more than happy to give my opinions on things. But just as a for warning, understand that i think like every tom dick and harry out there thats trying to go fast and not break the bank in the process. I don't take offense when my answers have objections. Not everyone has the same views as me. And when it comes down to it, I don't always have the most technical answers ever either. I'll be the first to say that your understanding of fueling and methanol injection easily surpasses mine. Though, id like to think I have more experience in dealing with it first hand. I wouldn't mind continuing tossing around more opinions/facts around. You taught me a few things about engine flooding. Though, i think you learned from me that im a cheap ass, and hard headed, lol. Catcha in the morning

P.s. You never answered the questions above.
Do you honestly feel that this car is really in NEED of such a nozzle? (10gph nozzle, 250psi pump)
Hell, do you honestly feel that this car is really in NEED of such a nozzle even if the pump was set at 100 psi? (10gph nozzle, 100 psi pump)
And if so, why?

 

hey guys I wont be able to make it anymore sorry

 

jeebus christmas, i'm still running an m3 nozzle lol, and i make plenty of power. if you wanna see how much volume one of those nozzles puts out, remove the nozzle and put in a bottle while still have the hose attached. remove the boost line from the tfitting, and set the boost all the way down, then blow into the hose. watch how fast it fills up the bottle.

 

Little pull I did on the way to work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9flf_...=youtube_gdata

 

This still going?

 

Yes it is I'll be there a little after 11am

 

what time?

 

11ish

 

thought it was at 10?

 

Yeah that's what I meant 10

but I won't be there till 11

 

http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...a41a0402092ad5

found the H/E

 

i thought those were rhetorical...lol The pump used in the M9 nozzle was at 150psi FYI.
I don't believe the nozzles are needed, but I see it as beneficial at times. Lets say, hypothetically, a M5 nozzle (spraying a 100% meth mix) is giving you all the octane you need to max out your timing table. Of course at this point, you dont need any more octane, so no more meth is included, however, given the heat of the M62 and such high combustion chamber pressures, its safe to say you have a very hot combustion chamber.

This is why I would use a 10gph nozzle. Run a 50/50 of meth/water, and you still have the same 5gph of meth providing the necessary octane, but you also now have 5gph of water to help cool the combustion chamber, prevent excessive engine temps, and help increase the longevity and reliability of the motor as a whole. I agree that this is really only for high HP numbers, or ese the same can be achieved with smaller nozzle sizes, but just since rootbeer is using a TVS (and likely to make some great numbers if he turns the meth on at some point), I would say a M10 is fine for him. He would be running a 50/50 mix of course, nothing like a 90/10, but I believe a TVS car can benefit from an M10 over an M6, at least in the longevity department, if not possibly in the horsepower department.

As for the second question....absolutely. a M10 nozzle @100 psi is only an M6 nozzle with a 150psi pump, or a bit smaller with a 220 psi pump.

Perhaps one of the reasons we disagree (and steve as well), is that steve and I are using the 150psi pump. If you are using the 220psi pump, then an M8 for us is smaller than an M6 for you. I dont suppose this is the case? or are you using a 150psi pump as well?

 

So the ONLY reason you would add 4 more gallons per hours to said vehicle would be for additional cooling of the combustion chambers. Egt temps with a properly sized nozzle will already do well enough to where you don't have to add 4 more gph (more if your on a larger pump) Not to drag anyone specifically in on this conversation. The tvs owners who have been tuning them with success are not using a 10gph. And the reason being is that there is no need for them.

The m6 nozzle at 150 psi is around 7.9 gph
the m8 at 150 would prolly be around 9.7 gph and at 220psi would be very close to 10.5gph.

I USED a 100psi pump preset from devils own. I don't enjoy playing nozzle pressure vs pump psi games. Im old school low psi pumps for me.

The pump you are using with a 10gph nozzle would place your nozzle at around 12.3 gph.
Again, really not needed. So you would be injecting an additional 6gph in the motor for additional cooling. When a normal run of the mill 6gph nozzle on your 150 psi pump would be MORE than you would need with your extra cooling capabilities. A little less than 6gph to max your timing table. With the additional 1.9 gph to help cool the motor. Unless you feel this car REALLY NEEDS an additional 6.5 gph to cool the combustion chambers. Then please by all means, knocks yourselves out. I for one, (and I know im not alone in this)
feel that is just plain silly.

Im using a nozzle vs pump psi calculator to get the numbers. I do not know these off the top of my head, So Im not talking matter-of-factly. These are more or less numbers. But still should be "good enough"

So far some Dyno results for today.

DsMastery - before tune. Stock Full exhaust - 225whp 192wtrq
New results, Exhaust and tune only - 246whp 209 wtrq

 

I wouldnt say ONLY like that. there are 2 reasons to use meth:
1) to increase performance
2) to increase reliability

an M6 is fine for increased performance, running mostly meth, but running a larger nozzle so you can run water in there too and still maintain the same volume of meth allows for a more reliable motor. At the end of the day, I'd rather have my car be reiable than be a performer, as these cars are our DDs, and most of us cant afford to have anything go wrong.

Im going to chalk this up to tuner preference. If you're fine using a smaller nozzle, then by all means, go ahead. I prefer using a larger one so i can run more water in my mix. I would say both are reasonable options, and we both just favor our own.

EDIT; can you link to this flow rate calculator? it would help me out when going to large nozzles like M14 or M16 sized ones (it's for the GTO community..THATS definitely too large for a cobalt..lol)

 

Pretty much. We can call it all preference. That will make things clearer i suppose.
Calculator I found was on the devils own forums. Though a google search should pull up a few more. Ill get around to it after the packer/cowboy game

Btw, dyno results for the tvs car
250whp/249wtrq shut down at 6k due to lean condition and engine detonation.

 

First attempt @ tuning a TVS on 91 octane.

Second pull leaned out for some strange reason... And iat2s were well into the 160s. (after reviewing the log, there was no lean condition found per HPT)
Got a couple logs showing the car sitting @ 11.5-11.7 all pull long depending on elevation. dunno what caused the car to do that. See what the log says later
I know im beating a dead horse here... But I really wonder if his stock plugs just aren't liking him past 6000.. meh two step colders are on the way. we'll soon find out...

 

was dmystrey results done on the same dyno?
still good power, made more than my stg2. i made 236whp/211wtq with stg2 and intake