Injector basics for LSJ - Page 7 - Cobalt SS Network

Go Back  Cobalt SS Network > Engine Technical Discussion > Tuning
Injector basics for LSJ >

Injector basics for LSJ

Tuning For tuning and related discussions

Injector basics for LSJ

Old 01-13-2016, 01:09 PM
  #151  
Moderator
Platinum Member
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Slowbalt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-15-11
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 24,355
Thanked 301 Times in 276 Posts
I would try to get split streams.
Slowbalt2000 is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 01:11 PM
  #152  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: 03-03-14
Location: Florida
Posts: 415
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
At this point I'm completely gun-shy of buying anything. Got any recommendations?
patooyee is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 01:27 PM
  #153  
Moderator
Platinum Member
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Slowbalt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-15-11
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 24,355
Thanked 301 Times in 276 Posts
I recommend asking id if they offer split stream injectors, i was sure they did.
Slowbalt2000 is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 01:31 PM
  #154  
New Member
 
Join Date: 10-31-05
Location: Houston
Posts: 103
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Slowbalt2000 View Post
I would try to get split streams.
Plenty of people are using single stream injectors from Injector Dynamics and I've never heard of any issues. I believe the very fine atomization of the fuel is what makes them so good and negates the need for the split stream. That's the argument people make for them anyway.
RedLined is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 01:39 PM
  #155  
Moderator
Platinum Member
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Slowbalt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-15-11
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 24,355
Thanked 301 Times in 276 Posts
I know they are pretty much the best you can get. But i couldve sworn they offered the correct ones. I could be wrong.
Slowbalt2000 is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 05:39 PM
  #156  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: 03-03-14
Location: Florida
Posts: 415
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Before I return these injectors I decided to simply google their part number (0-280-158-123) to see what would turn up. Take these for what they are worth:

Stan Weiss' - Electronic Fuel Injector (EFI) Flow Data Table
Lists two different flow rates for the part number, neither of which are the ones advertised by FIC.
(Use browser find function to easily find the part number in that huge list.)

Some sort of marketing data sheet straight from Bosch:
http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/medi...5993867pdf.pdf

Audi S4 Wiki:
Fuel injectors - S4wiki

Apex Speed Technology ? View topic - Bosch Motorsport Injector Characterization
It is said in this thread that Motec has accurate injector data on these injectors. (I'm not sure the best way to go about asking them for it.)

Bosch EV14 Injector Migration
Discussion in this thread is getting borderline on my personal comprehension level. Contains some data that was supposedly supplied by ID.

Here's a spreadsheet with some info:
http://www.usrallyteam.com/content/p...ector_data.xls

Overall there is tons of mentions of the part number on the internet. This is just some of the most informative ones that pop up after about 10 minutes of searching. Maybe ya'll can make some sense of it all?
patooyee is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 05:50 PM
  #157  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: 03-03-14
Location: Florida
Posts: 415
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I called Motec just for ***** and giggles. They did not give two f's, they were literally disgusted to even be on the phone with me.
patooyee is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 06:41 PM
  #158  
New Member
 
Join Date: 10-31-05
Location: Houston
Posts: 103
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by patooyee View Post
Before I return these injectors I decided to simply google their part number (0-280-158-123) to see what would turn up. Take these for what they are worth:

Stan Weiss' - Electronic Fuel Injector (EFI) Flow Data Table
Lists two different flow rates for the part number, neither of which are the ones advertised by FIC.
(Use browser find function to easily find the part number in that huge list.)

Some sort of marketing data sheet straight from Bosch:
http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/medi...5993867pdf.pdf

Audi S4 Wiki:
Fuel injectors - S4wiki

Apex Speed Technology ? View topic - Bosch Motorsport Injector Characterization
It is said in this thread that Motec has accurate injector data on these injectors. (I'm not sure the best way to go about asking them for it.)

Bosch EV14 Injector Migration
Discussion in this thread is getting borderline on my personal comprehension level. Contains some data that was supposedly supplied by ID.

Here's a spreadsheet with some info:
http://www.usrallyteam.com/content/p...ector_data.xls

Overall there is tons of mentions of the part number on the internet. This is just some of the most informative ones that pop up after about 10 minutes of searching. Maybe ya'll can make some sense of it all?
Yeah, I looked through most of that after I bought these injectors. I believe the OP used some of that to come up with his injector data.
RedLined is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 06:45 PM
  #159  
New Member
 
Join Date: 10-31-05
Location: Houston
Posts: 103
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by patooyee View Post
I called Motec just for ***** and giggles. They did not give two f's, they were literally disgusted to even be on the phone with me.
Wow, really? Most of the time people just politely decline to give out info.
RedLined is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 06:56 PM
  #160  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: 03-03-14
Location: Florida
Posts: 415
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'm on the fence now. I searched FIC on LS1tech.com and found literally nothing but good things. "My car tuned perfectly using the supplied data," seems to be the most common statement concerning FIC.

I also searched ID there, found about the same stuff.

FIC has been so professional this entire time, which is the universal concensus on ls1tech.com as well.

If they gave out bad data then no one's injectors would work and there would be no shortage of internet hate, I'm certain.

While cost isn't a huge deciding factor for me, I paid half for 5 injectors from FIC what ID wants for 4 injectors.

I kind of feel like the P12 PCM that the OP (and Redlined) are working on is an odd-ball PCM with unique concerns whereas my e67 is very standard and straight forward. Maybe that is why the data needs so many special considerations for them but may not for me?

I don't know ...
patooyee is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 07:46 PM
  #161  
Moderator
Platinum Member
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Slowbalt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-15-11
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 24,355
Thanked 301 Times in 276 Posts
Hmm. I would test them out for you but my car is garage locked right now. Maybe send them to jesse and see what he thinks about tuning with them?
Slowbalt2000 is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 08:45 PM
  #162  
New Member
 
Join Date: 10-31-05
Location: Houston
Posts: 103
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by patooyee View Post
I'm on the fence now. I searched FIC on LS1tech.com and found literally nothing but good things. "My car tuned perfectly using the supplied data," seems to be the most common statement concerning FIC.

I also searched ID there, found about the same stuff.

FIC has been so professional this entire time, which is the universal concensus on ls1tech.com as well.

If they gave out bad data then no one's injectors would work and there would be no shortage of internet hate, I'm certain.

While cost isn't a huge deciding factor for me, I paid half for 5 injectors from FIC what ID wants for 4 injectors.

I kind of feel like the P12 PCM that the OP (and Redlined) are working on is an odd-ball PCM with unique concerns whereas my e67 is very standard and straight forward. Maybe that is why the data needs so many special considerations for them but may not for me?

I don't know ...
In case no one read the article from Injector Dynamics that I posted the link to previously, it's not that the data is wrong. It's that it's someone else's data that's been modified ever so slightly so that it doesn't look like its been copied.
Though I honestly believe that the data FIC is giving out for these injectors is just wrong period. Could it be a simple mistake on their part, possibly. But then how come they've made the same mistake more than once? Every time they give out the data it's labeled as 650cc or 72.02lb @58 psi. I believe it's the data for one of their other Bosch injectors.
In the case of the P12 I can't see why this GM pcm would be different than every other. Especially since data from very popular injectors has been used without issues.
Either way you can only truly know the specs on your specific injectors by having them tested. If I remember correctly Injector Dynamics tests every set of injectors so that you get data that is specific to your set of injectors.
RedLined is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 08:57 PM
  #163  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: 03-03-14
Location: Florida
Posts: 415
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RedLined View Post
If I remember correctly Injector Dynamics tests every set of injectors so that you get data that is specific to your set of injectors.
I don't believe that is true. Maybe if you pay extra for that test or something. Mitch told me this morning that they machine hundreds of injectors in a batch, then give each one serial numbers, run them through a break-in machine, and then flow-test every 10th one. So long as the results are within a specified range all are considered "matched." He says sometimes when a very high performance application demands a truly matched set they will pick a set of injectors that match the closest from the ones that they tested and in some cases will go as far as modifying those to get them to match even closer. But the average customer who orders injectors gets a random selection from the batch.

I'm not saying that this is not a good practice. Rather, I think it probably is. You can't test every one of thousands and thousands of injectors.

Originally Posted by RedLined View Post
Though I honestly believe that the data FIC is giving out for these injectors is just wrong period.
I'm sorry if I am not following along properly, but didn't you get them to work? If the data is wrong did you change it to accomplish that?

I did read every word of the link you posted, discussed it with Mitch this morning even. I'm not discounting it. Rather I take everything with a grain of salt on the internet. I've seen good vendors go at it numerous times in the 4x4 industry only to become enemies in the end and both continue on providing excellent products and services. It's hard to know what goes on behind the scenes when this happens. Hard to care when the end results are happy customers.
patooyee is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 09:08 PM
  #164  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: 03-03-14
Location: Florida
Posts: 415
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Maybe it's best I just talk to Jon directly about the article, get his side of the story? Make my concerns clear to him, see what he says. I already have my return shipping label printed and paid for. I have no qualms about returning the injectors. But I would have a hard time finding a good reason to do so if Jon swears that the data he provided is not going to cause problems. Just search ls1tech.com forum for threads with "fuel injector connection" in the subject. There is literally not one negative review. It's hard for me to imagine that, if the data he is supplying with injectors is deliberately skewed, someone on there wouldn't complain. There are hundreds of tuners on that site.
patooyee is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 09:29 PM
  #165  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: 03-03-14
Location: Florida
Posts: 415
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Haha, I'll tell you what, all this makes me think very seriously about running propane!
patooyee is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 09:36 PM
  #166  
New Member
 
Join Date: 10-31-05
Location: Houston
Posts: 103
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by patooyee View Post
I don't believe that is true. Maybe if you pay extra for that test or something. Mitch told me this morning that they machine hundreds of injectors in a batch, then give each one serial numbers, run them through a break-in machine, and then flow-test every 10th one. So long as the results are within a specified range all are considered "matched." He says sometimes when a very high performance application demands a truly matched set they will pick a set of injectors that match the closest from the ones that they tested and in some cases will go as far as modifying those to get them to match even closer. But the average customer who orders injectors gets a random selection from the batch.

I'm not saying that this is not a good practice. Rather, I think it probably is. You can't test every one of thousands and thousands of injectors.



I'm sorry if I am not following along properly, but didn't you get them to work? If the data is wrong did you change it to accomplish that?

I did read every word of the link you posted, discussed it with Mitch this morning even. I'm not discounting it. Rather I take everything with a grain of salt on the internet. I've seen good vendors go at it numerous times in the 4x4 industry only to become enemies in the end and both continue on providing excellent products and services. It's hard to know what goes on behind the scenes when this happens. Hard to care when the end results are happy customers.
They are working, but getting them to "work" doesn't mean they are functioning properly under all loads and at every voltage. For example the injectors started dumping massive amounts of fuel while I was accelerating uphill in fifth yesterday. I mean the car was going along fine, then it felt like I got knock retard or something, (but it wasnt because one of my Interceptors is programmed to flash when I get knock)and my afr gauge went full rich. I had to pull over and restart the car. No cel or anything.
Imagine if this happened to you while you were crawling up a steep hill in your buggy, or powering through some serious mud or sand?
RedLined is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 09:37 PM
  #167  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: 03-03-14
Location: Florida
Posts: 415
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RedLined View Post
They are working, but getting them to "work" doesn't mean they are functioning properly under all loads and at every voltage. For example the injectors started dumping massive amounts of fuel while I was accelerating uphill in fifth yesterday. I mean the car was going along fine, then it felt like I got knock retard or something, (but it wasnt because one of my Interceptors is programmed to flash when I get knock)and my afr gauge went full rich. I had to pull over and restart the car. No cel or anything.
Imagine if this happened to you while you were crawling up a steep hill in your buggy, or powering through some serious mud or sand?
Haha, well you didn't mention that yet. I would say if that is happening then they AREN'T working.

You would credit that to improper voltage offset?
patooyee is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 09:48 PM
  #168  
New Member
 
Join Date: 10-31-05
Location: Houston
Posts: 103
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by patooyee View Post
Maybe it's best I just talk to Jon directly about the article, get his side of the story? Make my concerns clear to him, see what he says. I already have my return shipping label printed and paid for. I have no qualms about returning the injectors. But I would have a hard time finding a good reason to do so if Jon swears that the data he provided is not going to cause problems. Just search ls1tech.com forum for threads with "fuel injector connection" in the subject. There is literally not one negative review. It's hard for me to imagine that, if the data he is supplying with injectors is deliberately skewed, someone on there wouldn't complain. There are hundreds of tuners on that site.
IDK, I just don't understand why no one has gotten injector data directly from them until you asked. Also who doesn't provide some kind of data with their injectors? Not even a sheet that shows they're flow matched? Come on. Right away I felt like I was in trouble when I opened the package and there was nothing in the box but injectors.
If you feel you can trust anything FIC says then you might as well just take their word for it and run the injectors. I seriously hope that they work for you without any issues. It's possible that myself and the OP just didn't interpolate the data properly.
RedLined is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 10:13 PM
  #169  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: 03-03-14
Location: Florida
Posts: 415
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
HAHA! BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY THAT THE CHANCES OF ME BEING RIGHT ABOUT INJECTOR DATA WHEN YOU ARE WRONG ARE VIRTUALLY ZILCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!

Here is my interpretation of the situation though:

The injector data that they provided to me has some values in it that are in e40/e38/e67 format. (Don't ask me which or what that means! I openly admit that I do not know!) The P12 apparently uses some other format which requires the e67 data to be interpolated as apparently you and the OP have done? I'm not sure how or why that is required but my understanding is that FIC (and most others for that matter) does not deal with p12's. Virtually the entire industry operates on e38/e40/e67 standard format for the V8 engines. Probably 1 out of every 1000 injectors anyone sells is for a P12 Ecotec. The rest go into V8's that use the more common ECM's. As someone stated here in another thread, there are probably 1000 V8 cars and trucks on the streets today for every 1 P12 Ecotec. So when the OP purchased these injectors he alone interpolated the e67 data to work in the P12 and therefore was the single solitary person on the planet with that data at that time.

When I spoke to Jon at FIC he said it had been a year or more since he had sold these injectors to an Ecotec user. He said he did at one point have a copy of the OP's interpolated p12 data but had since lost it. He said he would try to find it from a performance shop that he did business with that tuned Ecotecs. That shop happened to be local to me and I can confirm that they either never existed or have gone out of business. I was able to find their defunct FB page though which makes me believe that they did exist at one point. From FIC's POV though I can see how they might be reluctant to provide data to customers that was interpolated by an unknown customer for an unknown PCM that they do not work with even if they were in possession of that data. Furthermore, once I told him I was not using that ECM, that I was in fact using an e67, he had the e67 data to me within 2 minutes. Virtually everyone you are saying has tried to get the data was trying to get the p12 data which FIC apparently does not have to give. Furthermore, I can assure you that, until the day that I called Jon, he had NO CLUE that an Ecotec existed on this Earth that used anything other than a p12. He was completely surprised to hear that I was using an e67 and that that e67 came stock in my Ecotec car. He knew exactly what an e67 was because it is what Corvettes, Camaros, etc use. Thus, if anyone contacted him before me and did not specify what ECM they were using, Jon is surely assuming that they are asking for p12 info that we have already established that he is not in possession of. I'm sure you know many people do not know what ECM they have, most do not understand ECM models. So there is no reason to believe that anyone specifies that info to FIC when they order.

I'm not taking FIC's side. Just stating what I know so far.
patooyee is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 10:17 PM
  #170  
New Member
 
Join Date: 10-31-05
Location: Houston
Posts: 103
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by patooyee View Post
Haha, well you didn't mention that yet. I would say if that is happening then they AREN'T working.

You would credit that to improper voltage offset?
Yes, I believe I hit a part of the table that maybe the OP never reached. I know I probably should have downshifted into fourth but I kept the car in fifth and just put my foot down. I tried to replicate the circumstances again today while data logging but I couldn't do it. I also went full throttle through second and third just to see if anything would happen, but still no issue.
RedLined is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 10:21 PM
  #171  
Moderator
Platinum Member
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Slowbalt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-15-11
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 24,355
Thanked 301 Times in 276 Posts
just for reference, there is more than just ecotecs that use the p12, im pretty sure trailblazers use it too, along with the tbss.
Slowbalt2000 is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 10:25 PM
  #172  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: 03-03-14
Location: Florida
Posts: 415
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Slowbalt2000 View Post
just for reference, there is more than just ecotecs that use the p12, im pretty sure trailblazers use it too, along with the tbss.
TBSS uses e40. My last buggy had a TBSS LS2 in it.

Surely there are others that use P12's. But none that I know of that people routinely upgrade injectors in.
patooyee is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 10:28 PM
  #173  
Moderator
Platinum Member
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Slowbalt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-15-11
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 24,355
Thanked 301 Times in 276 Posts
also just so you know, from what ive seen looking at cobalt files. the e37 and e67 are essentially the same
Slowbalt2000 is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 10:35 PM
  #174  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: 03-03-14
Location: Florida
Posts: 415
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
What uses the e37?
patooyee is offline  
Old 01-13-2016, 10:47 PM
  #175  
Moderator
Platinum Member
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Slowbalt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-15-11
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 24,355
Thanked 301 Times in 276 Posts
my car does.

07-10 l61 and lap cobalts

08+ le5 cobalts
Slowbalt2000 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Injector basics for LSJ


Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.