tuning torque management
11-27-2017, 10:58 PM
#1
tuning torque management
does anyone know of any guides or info on tuning the torque management on an lsj? anything i find only talks about how to eliminate it. im looking for info on what pids to watch, possible histograms to use, and how the "etc tps max" table works. im not looking for info on the max boost tables, got that under control.
basicly im trying to get my car a little more driveable. ive had the torque management off since i bought the car, like most people do when they get a tune. i put the torque management tables back to stock settings, and it really helped tame the ls4 throttle body's touchy throttle down, however however it picked up a surge when applying throttle after a 1-2 shift (light throttle in town type driving). i cut the timing "retard vs torque reduction %" values in half and that went away for the most part, however the touchyness of the ls4 throttle body started coming back. im sure im on the right track, i just dont want to guess my way through this.
basicly im trying to get my car a little more driveable. ive had the torque management off since i bought the car, like most people do when they get a tune. i put the torque management tables back to stock settings, and it really helped tame the ls4 throttle body's touchy throttle down, however however it picked up a surge when applying throttle after a 1-2 shift (light throttle in town type driving). i cut the timing "retard vs torque reduction %" values in half and that went away for the most part, however the touchyness of the ls4 throttle body started coming back. im sure im on the right track, i just dont want to guess my way through this.
11-29-2017, 01:51 PM
#2
do you have acess to the throttle map
ie
throttle body to throttle pedal differences
i found it get a lot better when you keep the throttle body open % at tick over for longer period of time
ie
throttle body to throttle pedal differences
i found it get a lot better when you keep the throttle body open % at tick over for longer period of time
11-29-2017, 10:37 PM
#7
we dont have anything like that in hp tuners, at least not with the p12 pcm. it would be nice if we could modify the pedal response, what you have there is just like making a progressive throttle linkage.
i dont think anyone has tried a 90mm throttle body. stock on the lsj is 67mm, the ls4 is 75mm and you have to hog the blower out to properly use it. i cant imagine anything bigger offering anything more.
i dont think anyone has tried a 90mm throttle body. stock on the lsj is 67mm, the ls4 is 75mm and you have to hog the blower out to properly use it. i cant imagine anything bigger offering anything more.
Moderator
11-30-2017, 12:46 PM
#10
Last edited by Henry3959; 11-30-2017 at 12:53 PM.
11-30-2017, 01:39 PM
#14
Yeah... I have seen just as stupid things tried in the 2 stroke world without any consideration to the entire VE capability of the engine. The only upside is, any obstruction anywhere from intake tip to tail pipe tip contributes to total VE so if it helps it helps but I would hate to have to tune it to drive around.
11-30-2017, 11:40 PM
#15
iirc the foximus race car is running an aem stand alone system in it, im unsure if thats drive by wire still or a cable. if it was a cable throttle maybe he was using the gm cavalier blower kit adapter for a 2.2l cable throttle body, and thats only 56mm. would be worthwhile to change it up then.
back onto topic, still cant seem to find any info but ive been slowly chipping away at my tune. ive managed to make the car a whole lot more driveable. what ive done so far is play around with the "spark retard vs torque reduction", stock settings gave me some issues, i multiplied the whole chart by half and i picked up a surge in 2nd gear. i ended up with the chart at 3/4 of what it was stock, seems to be working. i also did a little smoothing on the "etc tps max" chart, it made the car a lot smoother.
another thing ive been playing with is the throttle body settings. since i went to 60lb injectors 5 years ago the car has never had a good cold start or a very good idle, both with the stock throttle body and the ls4. i tried the suggested scalar of 4500 and 4950 and both worked, but still never had a great idle. this week i ended up bumping the scalar to 5500 and it made another world of difference in touchyness, but in doing that i now had a worse cold start. started really looking at it and noticed the car is running 30.5 degrees timing on a cold start and its not hitting the target idle speed. started playing with the min/max effective area settings and finally today got a real good cold start and warm up while hitting the target idle speed with proper timing figures.
just had a look at some of my old tunes trying to sort this out. my "effective area" settings are now at max 30 min 12. looking at a stock tune they are max 150 and min 0. it appears in the tune zzp did for me when i got my 60lb injectors (this was still for an lsj throttle body not the ls4) they put the effective area max 22 min 13. makes sense why i started having issues with idle right after i put their tune in. they did do a couple email touch ups on the tune, and i was having some real bad surging at idle and they told me to clean my throttle body and it wasnt the tune, then quit replying to my emails. now i know for sure it was their tune that caused all these headaches.
back onto topic, still cant seem to find any info but ive been slowly chipping away at my tune. ive managed to make the car a whole lot more driveable. what ive done so far is play around with the "spark retard vs torque reduction", stock settings gave me some issues, i multiplied the whole chart by half and i picked up a surge in 2nd gear. i ended up with the chart at 3/4 of what it was stock, seems to be working. i also did a little smoothing on the "etc tps max" chart, it made the car a lot smoother.
another thing ive been playing with is the throttle body settings. since i went to 60lb injectors 5 years ago the car has never had a good cold start or a very good idle, both with the stock throttle body and the ls4. i tried the suggested scalar of 4500 and 4950 and both worked, but still never had a great idle. this week i ended up bumping the scalar to 5500 and it made another world of difference in touchyness, but in doing that i now had a worse cold start. started really looking at it and noticed the car is running 30.5 degrees timing on a cold start and its not hitting the target idle speed. started playing with the min/max effective area settings and finally today got a real good cold start and warm up while hitting the target idle speed with proper timing figures.
just had a look at some of my old tunes trying to sort this out. my "effective area" settings are now at max 30 min 12. looking at a stock tune they are max 150 and min 0. it appears in the tune zzp did for me when i got my 60lb injectors (this was still for an lsj throttle body not the ls4) they put the effective area max 22 min 13. makes sense why i started having issues with idle right after i put their tune in. they did do a couple email touch ups on the tune, and i was having some real bad surging at idle and they told me to clean my throttle body and it wasnt the tune, then quit replying to my emails. now i know for sure it was their tune that caused all these headaches.
12-01-2017, 07:43 AM
#16
iirc the foximus race car is running an aem stand alone system in it, im unsure if thats drive by wire still or a cable. if it was a cable throttle maybe he was using the gm cavalier blower kit adapter for a 2.2l cable throttle body, and thats only 56mm. would be worthwhile to change it up then.
back onto topic, still cant seem to find any info but ive been slowly chipping away at my tune. ive managed to make the car a whole lot more driveable. what ive done so far is play around with the "spark retard vs torque reduction", stock settings gave me some issues, i multiplied the whole chart by half and i picked up a surge in 2nd gear. i ended up with the chart at 3/4 of what it was stock, seems to be working. i also did a little smoothing on the "etc tps max" chart, it made the car a lot smoother.
another thing ive been playing with is the throttle body settings. since i went to 60lb injectors 5 years ago the car has never had a good cold start or a very good idle, both with the stock throttle body and the ls4. i tried the suggested scalar of 4500 and 4950 and both worked, but still never had a great idle. this week i ended up bumping the scalar to 5500 and it made another world of difference in touchyness, but in doing that i now had a worse cold start. started really looking at it and noticed the car is running 30.5 degrees timing on a cold start and its not hitting the target idle speed. started playing with the min/max effective area settings and finally today got a real good cold start and warm up while hitting the target idle speed with proper timing figures.
just had a look at some of my old tunes trying to sort this out. my "effective area" settings are now at max 30 min 12. looking at a stock tune they are max 150 and min 0. it appears in the tune zzp did for me when i got my 60lb injectors (this was still for an lsj throttle body not the ls4) they put the effective area max 22 min 13. makes sense why i started having issues with idle right after i put their tune in. they did do a couple email touch ups on the tune, and i was having some real bad surging at idle and they told me to clean my throttle body and it wasnt the tune, then quit replying to my emails. now i know for sure it was their tune that caused all these headaches.
back onto topic, still cant seem to find any info but ive been slowly chipping away at my tune. ive managed to make the car a whole lot more driveable. what ive done so far is play around with the "spark retard vs torque reduction", stock settings gave me some issues, i multiplied the whole chart by half and i picked up a surge in 2nd gear. i ended up with the chart at 3/4 of what it was stock, seems to be working. i also did a little smoothing on the "etc tps max" chart, it made the car a lot smoother.
another thing ive been playing with is the throttle body settings. since i went to 60lb injectors 5 years ago the car has never had a good cold start or a very good idle, both with the stock throttle body and the ls4. i tried the suggested scalar of 4500 and 4950 and both worked, but still never had a great idle. this week i ended up bumping the scalar to 5500 and it made another world of difference in touchyness, but in doing that i now had a worse cold start. started really looking at it and noticed the car is running 30.5 degrees timing on a cold start and its not hitting the target idle speed. started playing with the min/max effective area settings and finally today got a real good cold start and warm up while hitting the target idle speed with proper timing figures.
just had a look at some of my old tunes trying to sort this out. my "effective area" settings are now at max 30 min 12. looking at a stock tune they are max 150 and min 0. it appears in the tune zzp did for me when i got my 60lb injectors (this was still for an lsj throttle body not the ls4) they put the effective area max 22 min 13. makes sense why i started having issues with idle right after i put their tune in. they did do a couple email touch ups on the tune, and i was having some real bad surging at idle and they told me to clean my throttle body and it wasnt the tune, then quit replying to my emails. now i know for sure it was their tune that caused all these headaches.
between that and the scaler and effective area you should get rid of the surge
im still having problems holding a commanded idle and getting retarded timing at idle
need more overspeed adjustment
edit: are you on stock cams ?
just thought of this too grab a trailblazer tune off hpt's repository and see what the effective area is set to, i used that as a base and worked from there , dont have my laptop at work and its been awhile since i messed with it
Last edited by advise; 12-01-2017 at 07:49 AM.
12-01-2017, 04:43 PM
#17
i got rid of the bad surging i had at idle with the zzp tune way back, the car was undriveable, it would rapidly surge between 700 and 1800 rpm at idle. they screwed with the idle over/under speed tables and i put them back to stock, surge was gone.
yea im on stock cams. i looked at the tb 4.2l settings, they are max 150 min 0 just like the lsj. it seems as i lower the min area i start to end up with a low idle and elevated timing at idle when warm. setting the minimum lower than 8 and the car stalls. im going to try pushing the maximum up a little more, ive been taking baby steps but seeing the max at 150 ill tyr a larger change and see what happens.
yea im on stock cams. i looked at the tb 4.2l settings, they are max 150 min 0 just like the lsj. it seems as i lower the min area i start to end up with a low idle and elevated timing at idle when warm. setting the minimum lower than 8 and the car stalls. im going to try pushing the maximum up a little more, ive been taking baby steps but seeing the max at 150 ill tyr a larger change and see what happens.
12-01-2017, 06:37 PM
#21
motor is stock internally, 225k km on it.
2.7" pulley
60lb injectors
zzp intake
ls4 throttle body
dual pass and 2nd zzp stage 3 heat exchanger with flow through tank
mid length header
2 1/2" exhaust
water/meth
the ls4 throttle body even with just adapter seemed to make a noticeable difference in mid range power.
2.7" pulley
60lb injectors
zzp intake
ls4 throttle body
dual pass and 2nd zzp stage 3 heat exchanger with flow through tank
mid length header
2 1/2" exhaust
water/meth
the ls4 throttle body even with just adapter seemed to make a noticeable difference in mid range power.
12-06-2017, 03:37 PM
#22
godt the cold start worked out real well now, it starts and idles like an efi car should. im frustrated its taken so long for me to sort this out.
also pretty happy with the torque management tuning, at least for now. the car is a lot more mellow to drive, but being on snow tires it still spins pretty easy. im real interested how it will be once i get the summer tires on in spring.
also pretty happy with the torque management tuning, at least for now. the car is a lot more mellow to drive, but being on snow tires it still spins pretty easy. im real interested how it will be once i get the summer tires on in spring.
12-07-2017, 05:49 PM
#24
essentially yes. typically in a routine of flash the car before starting it, get the log started and then fire it, let it warm up and keep an eye on it, even make some changes in the editor as things cross my mind. next time im in the car when its cooled back down (doesnt take very long this time of year in canada) ill flash in the changes and start again.
the best time to tune driveability is during your normal routine. i always find when i go for a drive just to tune i never end up getting rid of the little things that drive you nuts. when i was tuning the megasquirt in my last car i had a 45 minute commute each way, and id data log the drive in, review the log and make changes at lunch, flash it in before i drive home, log all the way home and make changes in the evening.
the best time to tune driveability is during your normal routine. i always find when i go for a drive just to tune i never end up getting rid of the little things that drive you nuts. when i was tuning the megasquirt in my last car i had a 45 minute commute each way, and id data log the drive in, review the log and make changes at lunch, flash it in before i drive home, log all the way home and make changes in the evening.