PCV goes to fresh air
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Powell Race Parts (04-12-2016)
04-11-2016, 06:17 PM
#29
BlueLNF, I think if you can manage to get enough vacuum at the old MAF port, the next issue would be that out1 is before the MAF and out2 is after (in IM) without reliably knowing how much flow is going through each one. That would be an issue with anyone who has relocated the MAF though.
04-11-2016, 10:45 PM
#31
You know u can sit here all day taking advice from people on how to fool around with ur pcv system, and not listen to those of us saying get a powell oil separator, but us few guys suggesting it know that when all is said and done, and ur car starts running like crap cause ur valves are gunked up, you will just end up back here wondering whats wrong and finally listen to us and get the separator. But then ull have added a whole bunch of headache in cleaning valves and taking all pipes and intercooler off to clean them. So why not just listen to us now, do what us veterans to the cobalt suggest, cause we have had experience with all this and have tried everything, save yourself a future headache and us an I told you so, and just get the dang powell oil separator and be done with it. lol
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Powell Race Parts (04-12-2016)
04-12-2016, 10:42 AM
#32
PCV system takes MEASURED air after the intake moves it through the crank case and then back into the intake before the turbo. The air is MEASURED the entire time. As someone else stated, breaking that system will allow unmeasured air into the stream.
Imagine it as a side stream from a main river that leads into a pond and then a second stream from the pond leads back to the main river. Imagine the pond takes in runoff from rainfall and would increase in size if the stream system didnt keep it in check. Everything flows in 1 direction and the amount of water moving is the same and known in the side stream system.
Now imagine there are men who live in the area that think they can make this self serving water shed system look really cool and they break the first stream flow to install a dam. water from the first stream backs up against the damn and goes back to the main river. The pond on the other hand is now increasing in volume from water run off.
The Dam is not functioning like the men thought it would and now there homes are all flooded and the dam doesnt look so cool anymore. They have to bring there pond to the autoshop to get fixed.
Imagine it as a side stream from a main river that leads into a pond and then a second stream from the pond leads back to the main river. Imagine the pond takes in runoff from rainfall and would increase in size if the stream system didnt keep it in check. Everything flows in 1 direction and the amount of water moving is the same and known in the side stream system.
Now imagine there are men who live in the area that think they can make this self serving water shed system look really cool and they break the first stream flow to install a dam. water from the first stream backs up against the damn and goes back to the main river. The pond on the other hand is now increasing in volume from water run off.
The Dam is not functioning like the men thought it would and now there homes are all flooded and the dam doesnt look so cool anymore. They have to bring there pond to the autoshop to get fixed.
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Powell Race Parts (04-12-2016)
04-12-2016, 11:00 AM
#33
You know u can sit here all day taking advice from people on how to fool around with ur pcv system, and not listen to those of us saying get a powell oil separator, but us few guys suggesting it know that when all is said and done, and ur car starts running like crap cause ur valves are gunked up, you will just end up back here wondering whats wrong and finally listen to us and get the separator. But then ull have added a whole bunch of headache in cleaning valves and taking all pipes and intercooler off to clean them. So why not just listen to us now, do what us veterans to the cobalt suggest, cause we have had experience with all this and have tried everything, save yourself a future headache and us an I told you so, and just get the dang powell oil separator and be done with it. lol
04-12-2016, 12:02 PM
#34
You know u can sit here all day taking advice from people on how to fool around with ur pcv system, and not listen to those of us saying get a powell oil separator, but us few guys suggesting it know that when all is said and done, and ur car starts running like crap cause ur valves are gunked up, you will just end up back here wondering whats wrong and finally listen to us and get the separator. But then ull have added a whole bunch of headache in cleaning valves and taking all pipes and intercooler off to clean them. So why not just listen to us now, do what us veterans to the cobalt suggest, cause we have had experience with all this and have tried everything, save yourself a future headache and us an I told you so, and just get the dang powell oil separator and be done with it. lol
Tom, I am not some n00b that is refusing to listen to good advice. I am turbo swapping my car again and sorting out the PCV routing BEFORE messing with it. Ideas and explanations are bouncing around here and its actually REALLY good info. My car is already getting the valves cleaned when I pull of my IM to install the new one I have been working on that includes meth bungs and is shaved. Furthermore, I would rather understand the whole system than just "buy Powells" and not understand exactly why.
TL;DR, I am doing this right, I just want to know why I need to do what I am doing.
Anyways, I am buying a new intake and sending it to my buddy to weld in a bung for the line that goes to the k04. It will be as close as possible to the turbo so my set up should run exactly like stock. He will also be shaving the MAF plate out of it since I do not run one there anyways. Will be nice and clean when done.
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CudaJoe (04-12-2016)
04-12-2016, 01:28 PM
#36
Thank you exninja.
Tom, I am not some n00b that is refusing to listen to good advice. I am turbo swapping my car again and sorting out the PCV routing BEFORE messing with it. Ideas and explanations are bouncing around here and its actually REALLY good info. My car is already getting the valves cleaned when I pull of my IM to install the new one I have been working on that includes meth bungs and is shaved. Furthermore, I would rather understand the whole system than just "buy Powells" and not understand exactly why.
TL;DR, I am doing this right, I just want to know why I need to do what I am doing.
Anyways, I am buying a new intake and sending it to my buddy to weld in a bung for the line that goes to the k04. It will be as close as possible to the turbo so my set up should run exactly like stock. He will also be shaving the MAF plate out of it since I do not run one there anyways. Will be nice and clean when done.
Tom, I am not some n00b that is refusing to listen to good advice. I am turbo swapping my car again and sorting out the PCV routing BEFORE messing with it. Ideas and explanations are bouncing around here and its actually REALLY good info. My car is already getting the valves cleaned when I pull of my IM to install the new one I have been working on that includes meth bungs and is shaved. Furthermore, I would rather understand the whole system than just "buy Powells" and not understand exactly why.
TL;DR, I am doing this right, I just want to know why I need to do what I am doing.
Anyways, I am buying a new intake and sending it to my buddy to weld in a bung for the line that goes to the k04. It will be as close as possible to the turbo so my set up should run exactly like stock. He will also be shaving the MAF plate out of it since I do not run one there anyways. Will be nice and clean when done.
04-12-2016, 02:02 PM
#38
04-12-2016, 02:34 PM
#39
If you look inside the stock intake elbow you'll see there is a 90° pointing towards the filter element, this is the fresh air intake for the valve cover. After that the line has a check valve that only allows air to go into the valve cover not out from.
Then you have the outlet line that runs into the compressor wheel which will have a vacuum on the turbo side.
So to have your system function as stock you should have a 90° on the inside of your intake line and then just plumb the outlet line right before the turbo. Should work the same as stock. If you want to keep oil out of the whole system get Powell's v2 separator since you have a modified IM.
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Powell Race Parts (04-12-2016)
04-12-2016, 05:33 PM
#40
Yelloeye and Tom have about said it all and Italian Joe and Kolt etc got it right for sure. The FAI needs the check valve so the PCV stays in vacuum where possible.This picture is horrible to tell the truth. Based on the sticker on the intake if you have one of their phenolic spacers which mimic the inlet manifold gasket, then the moment you get in boost the PCV valve gets spat out into the phenolic spacer area and the PCV valve o ring doesn't seal at all. Then you get boost pressure into the crankcase. That works well (not) . If you eliminate the PCV valve and don't maintain that vent circuit the system will turkey call and run like crap.
04-12-2016, 05:38 PM
#41
here is what I posted way back when I started the PCV upgrade stuff
"For the LNF, the OEM system has:
• On the fresh air side running post filter and pre turbo impeller; a check valve in the hose (thats the orifice) and it lets air in to the engine. This inlet air path goes directly to the base of the engine and is sealed from the upper cylinder head.
• There is another vent route out through the head into the inlet manifold. There is a check valve in the inlet manifold vent path, so the engine on vacuum ( off boost) can breathe fumes into the inlet manifold. The check valve there closes the moment the inlet is not pulling vacuum.
• There is a vent tube with an internal orifice on the dirty side, it vents to the turbo on the intake side.
• There is a “floor” in the dirty side route in the rocker cover with horizontal seperators
Catch cans without a seperator in two chambers really just become an accumulator of oil.
The idea is for the oil laden air on the dirty side to pass through the media ( or spill plates) so the air can leave the oil behind and then be sent on to the original routing.
Then the question is, what to do with the accumulated oil? it needs a place to go, and draining it after every track session or every week on the street onto your driveway or into a plastic bottle is not a good way to do it.
• I have a way and it makes the system better, while preserving the stock PCV operation which is very important. "
"For the LNF, the OEM system has:
• On the fresh air side running post filter and pre turbo impeller; a check valve in the hose (thats the orifice) and it lets air in to the engine. This inlet air path goes directly to the base of the engine and is sealed from the upper cylinder head.
• There is another vent route out through the head into the inlet manifold. There is a check valve in the inlet manifold vent path, so the engine on vacuum ( off boost) can breathe fumes into the inlet manifold. The check valve there closes the moment the inlet is not pulling vacuum.
• There is a vent tube with an internal orifice on the dirty side, it vents to the turbo on the intake side.
• There is a “floor” in the dirty side route in the rocker cover with horizontal seperators
Catch cans without a seperator in two chambers really just become an accumulator of oil.
The idea is for the oil laden air on the dirty side to pass through the media ( or spill plates) so the air can leave the oil behind and then be sent on to the original routing.
Then the question is, what to do with the accumulated oil? it needs a place to go, and draining it after every track session or every week on the street onto your driveway or into a plastic bottle is not a good way to do it.
• I have a way and it makes the system better, while preserving the stock PCV operation which is very important. "
04-12-2016, 10:54 PM
#43
here is what I posted way back when I started the PCV upgrade stuff "For the LNF, the OEM system has: • On the fresh air side running post filter and pre turbo impeller; a check valve in the hose (thats the orifice) and it lets air in to the engine. This inlet air path goes directly to the base of the engine and is sealed from the upper cylinder head. • There is another vent route out through the head into the inlet manifold. There is a check valve in the inlet manifold vent path, so the engine on vacuum ( off boost) can breathe fumes into the inlet manifold. The check valve there closes the moment the inlet is not pulling vacuum. • There is a vent tube with an internal orifice on the dirty side, it vents to the turbo on the intake side. • There is a “floor” in the dirty side route in the rocker cover with horizontal seperators Catch cans without a seperator in two chambers really just become an accumulator of oil. The idea is for the oil laden air on the dirty side to pass through the media ( or spill plates) so the air can leave the oil behind and then be sent on to the original routing. Then the question is, what to do with the accumulated oil? it needs a place to go, and draining it after every track session or every week on the street onto your driveway or into a plastic bottle is not a good way to do it. • I have a way and it makes the system better, while preserving the stock PCV operation which is very important. "
04-13-2016, 12:35 AM
#45
Look up the thread about Powell's system under development. Some work TOO well per se. They gather like bottles worth of oil over a track weekend. If my engine were to actually ingest that much oil I'd know immediately there's a serious problem. To me it shows that when you change pressures just a little bit in different parts of the PVC system it affects its operation greatly. The orifices are designed for specific pressure gradients that are found in certain points in the intake. Even as designed it's not perfect as evidenced by gross valves. Powell's separator, esp version 3, appears to be a good system that improves the stock design and makes up for modifications to the stock setup.
04-13-2016, 06:57 AM
#46
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
If you don't have enough filter area then oil can be pulled through or the flow can be blocked causing other issues has Powell's pointed out. Make it too large and the temperature drop can cause water vapor to condense, and no one wants water in their oil.
04-13-2016, 09:12 AM
#48
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
I think they're sending the check valve with all of them now, just make sure you get it.
04-13-2016, 10:41 AM
#49
^^^^ yes the check valve on the oil drain back became necessary, it was evident early on. GM thought the orifices we maintained would be enough, and they still thought that vacuum was there all the time. Its not, and as eCAulk or someone said, that vacuum in the PCV is a delicate and fragile thing.
And clearly the issue of hurt motors remains. Most folks call us to buy the PCV upgrade because they have oil everywhere. If the cause is broken ring lands, then the PCV upgrade wont help. sad to say it cant band aid mechanical damage.
And like I said, smoke test for boost leaks ;that is so much an issue it makes me crazy, esp., when I see half assed charge pipe installs with crude couplers kinked onto massive intercoolers stuffed into places they wont fit.
And clearly the issue of hurt motors remains. Most folks call us to buy the PCV upgrade because they have oil everywhere. If the cause is broken ring lands, then the PCV upgrade wont help. sad to say it cant band aid mechanical damage.
And like I said, smoke test for boost leaks ;that is so much an issue it makes me crazy, esp., when I see half assed charge pipe installs with crude couplers kinked onto massive intercoolers stuffed into places they wont fit.
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