What is the best catless downpipe out there for our car? I have seen ZZP, CIA, and Hahn. Has anyone had any problems with any of them? I have only heard good things so I'm not sure which one is the best.

go with cia for as many mods as possible awesome products & great prices

Hahn!

Hahn!

You are all alone....

go with cia for as many mods as possible awesome products & great prices

x2!

If you want to spend your money wisely. Go Clear Image automotive

going any other route is not smart at all. CIA has clearly outdone the rest.

sorry for the double post


I have heard no problems from CIA nd ZZP downpipes. i cannot speak for Hahn

Zzp!!!!!!

What is the best catless downpipe out there for our car? I have seen ZZP, CIA, and Hahn. Has anyone had any problems with any of them? I have only heard good things so I'm not sure which one is the best.

I have the Hahn. Amazing quality. Tech was throughly impressed that installed for me.

Recently purchased the catted version as well.....So will have a catless hahn for sell soon (didnt pass scca inspection lol)

what about synapse turbo, im using their downpipe and absolutely love it

what about synapse turbo, im using their downpipe and absolutely love it

Sorry I should of included every company.

If you have a downpipe not in the poll just post it.

I have the Hahn. Amazing quality. Tech was throughly impressed that installed for me.

Recently purchased the catted version as well.....So will have a catless hahn for sell soon (didnt pass scca inspection lol)

Could you pm the condition, mileage, and price of the catless. If you decided to sell it.

sorry for the double post


I have heard no problems from CIA nd ZZP downpipes. i cannot speak for Hahn

Hahns downpipe does not have any problems smart ass.

I am also in the market for bolt ons. I've decided on Injen charge piping but still have no clue as for a downpipe.

I am also in the market for bolt ons. I've decided on Injen charge piping but still have no clue as for a downpipe.

Yep, same here. Just trying to get everyone's opinion on downpipes.

I have the Hahn catless and no problems here

I have the Hahn catless and no problems here

x2 I have the catless also

im looking to get one soon. either CIA or ZZP.

Hahn is catching up!

Def. CIA...outstanding sound and quality.

bump!

i run clear images catless dp. hahns would be second choice for me but quality wise its no different from clear images and clear image has better prices.

link for synapse turbos: http://www.synapseturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SM&Product_Code=syn-syn-dwp-001&Category_Code=
As i've stated, never recieved a CEL or problems. Sounds amazing, worksmanship is also great.

link for synapse turbos: http://www.synapseturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SM&Product_Code=syn-syn-dwp-001&Category_Code=
As i've stated, never recieved a CEL or problems. Sounds amazing, worksmanship is also great.

looks good but a little pricey. I can get a hahn catless dp and hahn 3in catback for $850 shipped so I'm not sure what do do.

Looks like CIA is running away with it.
Bump

http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/showthread.php?t=174321

You are all alone....



x2!

If you want to spend your money wisely. Go Clear Image automotive

going any other route is not smart at all. CIA has clearly outdone the rest.

That right there is just a BS comment, just so they'll buy from the company that you are working with. There is nothing wrong with any DP out there, I believe the Dejon throws a code, but Synapse and Hahn are both great DP's.

What makes the cia dp so great imo is that you can have a cutout and a cat all in one, with the others you cant.

ZZP is MUCH cheaper(199 for the none catted, $289 for the catted) and that is stainless... not aluminum, CIA is $100 more, their aluminum one is more expensive than ZZP Stainless one

ZZP also has the FASTEST LNF right now, so, I think they know what they are doing, lol

I've seen all three, and they all are quality pieces. Be wary of the CTI dp though. Bad experience with theirs.

ZZP is MUCH cheaper(199 for the none catted, $289 for the catted) and that is stainless... not aluminum, CIA is $100 more, their aluminum one is more expensive than ZZP Stainless one

ZZP also has the FASTEST LNF right now, so, I think they know what they are doing, lol

Does ZZP's catless DP throw a code? I havent heard if it has or hasnt yet.

i feel like people dont give ZZP a chance besides on triple gauge pods. Blueberry has their downpipe and omfg the picture of it amazes me. looks so nice. he says NO CODES WHATSOEVER

i feel like people dont give ZZP a chance besides on triple gauge pods. Blueberry has their downpipe and omfg the picture of it amazes me. looks so nice. he says NO CODES WHATSOEVER

Noone gives ZZP a chance cause noone is marketing their product.... and thats the honest truth...

Their DP throws no codes BTW

Noone gives ZZP a chance cause noone is marketing their product.... and thats the honest truth...

Their DP throws no codes BTW

I would like to go CIA but ZZP is $100 cheaper and there have been no reports of problems with it.

I would like to go CIA but ZZP is $100 cheaper and there have been no reports of problems with it.

which DP do you want?

which DP do you want?

Well CIA looks a little better so if both were the same price i would get CIA dp

i mean catted or catless lol

I'm hoping to order CIA's catless DP soon.

i mean catted or catless lol

Catless

I have the CIA catted DP, definately free'd up some power before it got learned down... awesome downpipe. A nice fat high flow catalytic converter with 3" stainless steel beautifully welded on either side. Gets rid of the stock crush point for the o2 sensor. also get rid of two HUGE clunker catalytic converters. The pipe weighs way less as well.

I've decided on the ZZP catless DP. Can't beat the price. I'll definitely throw up a review next weekend.

i run clear images catless dp. hahns would be second choice for me but quality wise its no different from clear images and clear image has better prices.

Prices are about the same. $20 difference or so.

Anyone tried exhaust depot's? It's 268.00...I might just try it to be different ha ha

Anyone tried exhaust depot's? It's 268.00...I might just try it to be different ha ha

Never even heard of Exhaust Depot having a DP. Wonder if anyone else has it.

So a cattless DP won't set a code on the LNF? Thats surprising .

So a cattless DP won't set a code on the LNF? Thats surprising .

It's because the "smart" shops angle their o2 bung the right way, so it wont throw a code. You wont get a code with Hahn's, CIA's, or ZZP's.

This poll is kinda biased. Only someone that has owned all 3 DPs could actually contribute an accurate vote. There is probably nobody on this site that has owned and tested all 3.

Well CIA looks a little better so if both were the same price i would get CIA dp

looks better? how can one pipe look better than the other? they are all basically the same damn thing :lol:

besides, once on.......how many times are you going to see it again?


I do agree that one would have to own all 3 to give an accurate review of all 3... BUT I would bet money the dyno difference between all 3.........would be minimum... like probably 3whp or less, something you wouldn't even notice

I am fairly confident in saying there is no "wrong" option, just depends on what you want to spend...

I plan on going with the ZZP catted downpipe and catback... because of cost... OTTP has a cheaper catback but being that when you add in shipping, its suddenly more than the combo at ZZP, which is $930 shipped... and that is catted downpipe + catback w/ resonator.... for a catless downpipe and catback with no resonator, its be MUCH cheaper, but I don't want drone so i'm going with the "whisper" exhaust

I got in touch with Exhaust Depot to clarify a few things about the DP they offer for our car (their site is kind of vague unless it's about an SRT vehicle). $268 is for aluminized piping and they currently Do not offer Stainless for our car. They do not do the "angled 02 bung" mod, however they will throw in a "fouler" for free if you need one and are worried about throwing a Check Engine Light. If you are like me and are worried about that wonderful thing called snow rusting out your aluminized steel...they do offer a professional ceramic coating for 75 bucks through a company called performancekote (performancekote.com). Bit pricey for Aluminzed but it's another option that's out there...

Go to CIA and get the REAK thing. Not adapters. Their prices are NOT that bad and they make QUALITY stuff. They have had several group buys here on Cobalt SS and nobody has reported any complaints. In fact most have posted ENDORSEMENTS of CIA's products. Some of them having switched from other manufacturers. Got to the group buy thread and look for CIA's gb on their stuff. They had gb on the downpipe, charge pipes, CAI (still waiting for mine) and soon a SRI. Check it out. You WON'T be disappointed.

PS
And they only make stuff for Chevy.

look at the votes

I just lowered the pricing on the ZZP LNF downpipes. To anyone that has already ordered, you can email Kyla@zzperformance for a coupon code for the difference.

Thanks for your interest in the #1 downpipes on CSS.net

look at the votes

Top of the page! ;)

looks better? how can one pipe look better than the other? they are all basically the same damn thing :lol:

besides, once on.......how many times are you going to see it again?


I do agree that one would have to own all 3 to give an accurate review of all 3... BUT I would bet money the dyno difference between all 3.........would be minimum... like probably 3whp or less, something you wouldn't even notice

I am fairly confident in saying there is no "wrong" option, just depends on what you want to spend...

I plan on going with the ZZP catted downpipe and catback... because of cost... OTTP has a cheaper catback but being that when you add in shipping, its suddenly more than the combo at ZZP, which is $930 shipped... and that is catted downpipe + catback w/ resonator.... for a catless downpipe and catback with no resonator, its be MUCH cheaper, but I don't want drone so i'm going with the "whisper" exhaust

Buddy, Im saying from the amount of votes it looks like a better option.

I just lowered the pricing on the ZZP LNF downpipes. To anyone that has already ordered, you can email Kyla@zzperformance for a coupon code for the difference.

Thanks for your interest in the #1 downpipes on CSS.net

I seen that, thanks!! So for 189.99 I get a catless DP that will throw a code, and for 229.99 I get a catless DP that wont throw a code because of the angled o2 bung?

I seen that, thanks!! So for 189.99 I get a catless DP that will throw a code, and for 229.99 I get a catless DP that wont throw a code because of the angled o2 bung?

Correct.

And on the votes. Inherrently the company who has sold dowpipes the longest or the most will always have the most votes. This doesn't make them better.

Let's say a new company came around and no one had heard of them but god their parts. Guess what? They'd get zero votes.

You see this in the other section of the forum with Hahn and ZZP on LSJs. Look at something from a year ago and now. The products haven't changed but the voting is completely different as people get to use ZZPs stuff.

In the 3800 market, all the vendors sold downpipes. After some time it became apparent that ZZP had the best parts and the best pricing. I don't expect this market to be any different. If there is a better way to do something we do it. If there is a better material, we use it. This is why we have water jet cut flanges, 100% 304 stainless pipes, flawless tig welds and interlock flexes. No one else can say that, and no one else shows pictures of their welds close up.

sub'd to see the reaction from others about that post ^^

interesting statement.

i just installed an XTC from CA and have had no problems with it

i love hahn parts but i got the cia dp due to me feeling the need to support local companies

Hahn catless dp ftw

I'd say if you want a catted DP go with CIA or Hahn. (I like their cats better) If you want a off road DP then go with ZZP (it's only a metal tube with one bend lol), might as well buy the cheapest.

I'd say if you want a catted DP go with CIA or Hahn. (I like their cats better) If you want a off road DP then go with ZZP (it's only a metal tube with one bend lol), might as well buy the cheapest.

IIRC ZZP uses magnaflow Cat's right?
I thought magnaflow cat's were liked by most people . I didn't have any trouble with the ones i've had.

IIRC ZZP uses magnaflow Cat's right?
I thought magnaflow cat's were liked by most people . I didn't have any trouble with the ones i've had.

Yeah magnaflows are nice. But I'm pretty sure the cats CIA and Hahn are higher performance. I believe a 5% power loss over non-catted DPs. Pretty much like not having a cat at all.

Yeah magnaflows are nice. But I'm pretty sure the cats CIA and Hahn are higher performance. I believe a 5% power loss over non-catted DPs. Pretty much like not having a cat at all.

We've tested on the flow bench and the dyno our Mag cats over the 'race style' and ours make more power every time. People in the 3800 market are well aware of this and it cost one of our competitors all their credibility. We're pretty much the only company selling DPs there now.

We've spent a lot of money testing many cats. We do this type of R&D for all our products. We try and make them perform better than any other company's because we use them ourselves. We advertise our expertise by being the fastest. We can't do this with parts that aren't quite as good as other vendors. They have to be the best or our cars will not be the best. If our cars aren't the best, we lose our entire promotion strategy and have nothing left.

I'd say if you want a catted DP go with CIA or Hahn. (I like their cats better) If you want a off road DP then go with ZZP (it's only a metal tube with one bend lol), might as well buy the cheapest.

We did the first few like that. We just use an angled bung now. Looks similar to others.

Correct.

And on the votes. Inherrently the company who has sold dowpipes the longest or the most will always have the most votes. This doesn't make them better.

This is why we have water jet cut flanges, 100% 304 stainless pipes, flawless tig welds and interlock flexes. No one else can say that, and no one else shows pictures of their welds close up.

Hmmm? Well, we definitely haven't been selling downpipes the longest in this market, but we sure do offer the best.

We don't use water jet cut, rather we use laser cut flanges, 100% 304 stainless, flawless tig welds and interlock flex couplers. So your comment above is un-founded.

As for hi-flow converters, we have been using the metal metrix converters for over 6 years now. Magnaflow just released their metel matrix converters roughly one year ago. No difference other than they use a spun-down body instead of formed. Anything other than metal matrix is old school ceramic and does NOT flow as well.

We have been posting pictures since day one. Not just the finished products but prototype, to pre-production to perfection. This is the largest picture I could find, I can look harder if you like. :)

You can clearly see this is American made 304 stainless as depicted by the mill, "Rath Gibson". You can even read the heat number laser etched on the tubing.

Your turn to post a picture: close-up please.

http://www.clearimageautomotive.com/Products/P1070045.JPG

is it getting hot in here?

is it getting hot in here?

Only if you get too close to those BEAUTIFUL Mig welds on the outside and INSIDE of the flanges on CIA's product. Their picture doesn't show the INSIDE welds. Those welds are a good indication of the overall quality of their product. They designed the product on the basis of quality and then priced it accordingly, They didn't set the price and then design the product around that. I, for one am very satisfied with CIA's products and will gladly pay the extra couple of $ for anything they make, based on what I already have. :guns:

Only if you get too close to those BEAUTIFUL Mig welds on the outside and INSIDE of the flanges on CIA's product. Their picture doesn't show the INSIDE welds. Those welds are a good indication of the overall quality of their product. They designed the product on the basis of quality and then priced it accordingly, They didn't set the price and then design the product around that. I, for one am very satisfied with CIA's products and will gladly pay the extra couple of $ for anything they make, based on what I already have. :guns:

perfectly said!

Dan, first let me say that I commend you for your use of 100% stainless. It's a rare quality that a vendor actually has a 100% 304 stainless part. The statement of having your flanges laser cut tells me that you're serious about ensuring you're making a good piece. The welds also look very nice.

I have a few questions and comments.

-What is the cpi count of your converter? Who makes it?

-What is the thickness of your 4 bolt front flange?

-Are you using a 4" long flex?

-How much is your downpipe with and without cat?

Metal matrix catalytic converters use a metal core instead of ceramic. They can withstand shock, vibration and physical impact better then a ceramic core. Running rich can will melt and break-up some ceramic cores, as seen in the LSJ section of the forum. Metal cats are less prone to failure from running a bad tune. The problem with them is that they are more restrictive than the series of ceramic core we use and can clog over time. Ceramic can as well but cpi count is key here. Go to the Grand Prix message boards. Ask them how Random Tech downpipes work. RT was the premier vendor there and uses the metal cats to this day. But people have learned. We've dyno'd turbo cars and gained 100WHP from removing a restrictive cat.

http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/IMG_2004.jpg

welding:
http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/downpipe%20weld.jpg

whoa

Weld Looks good ZZP!! geez

whoa

Weld Looks good ZZP!! geez

Thank you. We are frequently told "these are the best welds I've seen in my life" by people in the trade. We pride ourselves on it.


On the laser cut flanges used by CIA and many companies. Laser cut flanges are expensive and very nice. The finish is clean and they go above and beyond what any cheaper company will do. ZZP used to use laser cut flanges and we still have parts here from doing so. In the course of discussion on our products I asked if laser cutting was the best. I was tired of problems and other people picking at me for making claims as such. The reply was "Zoom, laser cut flanges are above and beyond the application needs" I replied, that's not what I asked. I said is it the best. "Well, no...we could do water jet flanges." So we did. The following pictures show the differences and frankly I'm still angry to this day that at one point my guys believed our parts were "good enough" when they could have been better.

Laser cutting adds heat to the material and cause cause warping in larger pieces. This is seen below wiht the header flange on the table. Below that you can see the finish on the edges. Lasers leave a tiny bit of slag at the start and stop and the finish is not as smooth as the water jet flange shown in the picture. Our water jet flanges have a finish so smooth it appears sanded.

http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/IMG_2005.jpg
http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/IMG_2006.jpg
http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/IMG_2007.jpg

Picture of our water jet LNF flange. This is not touched up, smudges are from dirty fingers.
http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/IMG_2008.jpg

Thank you. We are frequently told "these are the best welds I've seen in my life" by people in the trade. We pride ourselves on it.


On the laser cut flanges used by CIA and many companies. Laser cut flanges are expensive and very nice. The finish is clean and they go above and beyond what any cheaper company will do. ZZP used to use laser cut flanges and we still have parts here from doing so. In the course of discussion on our products I asked if laser cutting was the best. I was tired of problems and other people picking at me for making claims as such. The reply was "Zoom, laser cut flanges are above and beyond the application needs" I replied, that's not what I asked. I said is it the best. "Well, no...we could do water jet flanges." So we did. The following pictures show the differences and frankly I'm still angry to this day that at one point my guys believed our parts were "good enough" when they could have been better.

Laser cutting adds heat to the material and cause cause warping in larger pieces. This is seen below wiht the header flange on the table. Below that you can see the finish on the edges. Lasers leave a tiny bit of slag at the start and stop and the finish is not as smooth as the water jet flange shown in the picture. Our water jet flanges have a finish so smooth it appears sanded.

http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/IMG_2005.jpg
http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/IMG_2006.jpg
http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/IMG_2007.jpg


From what I'm reading laser/water jet is a wash (I think that's a pun) unless you're making parts for the Shuttle.
http://www.teskolaser.com/waterjet_cutting.html#process

zzp do you guys offer a catted cut out down pipe like cia????? i think this is the best of both world....plus i cant offord the v-band set up from hahn

ZZP if you only backed your products like this I would have a ZZP windshield banner in no time

ZZP should do a group buy and even if they did like 20 dollars off or even free shipping it would still be a great deal.

I'm still on the stock downpipe for now...

I gotta say it's pretty cool to see that CAI and ZZP take pride in their work. Keep it up!

wish I could get a hold of ZZP... I want your DP!!!

wish I could get a hold of ZZP... I want your DP!!!

email me any time- stattama@aol.com. It's tough to get through to us by phone based on the number of people calling in.

wish I could get a hold of ZZP... I want your DP!!!

you can email customerservice@zzperformance.com or get to Matt or I directly. We handle about 100 orders a day so it can't be that hard to get ahold of us;)

I forgot to mention, not only is ZZP nearly 1/2 the price of some of these companies, we also off a $50 recycle credit if you return your old cat. Clearly the pictures posted show that a few companies are offering very high quality products for the LNF, but ZZP is is nearly 1/2 the price of our competitors. Should be a no brainer.

Thanks guys!

shit!! i didn't know zzp's was that cheap!! i also didnt kno u guys give 50 bucks if i send back my stocker!! i'm bout to do it right now lol

Do some type of group buy on the downpipes ZZP! I know your price is already super low but if you do a group buy you will have a ton of people buying!

^yea but wait till after i give my lawyer 500 bucks to keep my license :lol:

Do some type of group buy on the downpipes ZZP! I know your price is already super low but if you do a group buy you will have a ton of people buying!

There is a certain sales psychology of pricing an item high and then putting in on sale or doing a group buy but we are trying to move the forum away from that and show people that you simple get a lot more mod for your money at ZZP, everytime.

Our downpipes are incredibly low priced compared to what many peopl are buying and selling on the forum. Example is our LNF downpipe in 304 stainless which can be made even lower with our $50 old DP trade in program. We're selling 304 stainless cheaper than CAI sells mild steel pipes for. If people aren't buying them at this price, no price drop is going to have people buying. But I suspect in a short while we'll be the only ones selling DPs. After all why would people pay double for the same part?

yeah really, its like a 24/7 365 group buy, lol

I have ZZP's have had NO issues. Fitment was great, sound is amazing!

Well said ZZP and i completely agree. Its easy to offer a Group Purchase when you marked your product up alot to begin with. You guys offer your Downpipe at a great price, and i would LOVE to purchase and trade in my stocker for 50 bucks but i might need that come inspection. All i can say is when I have a few bucks to throw around ZZP has got some business from me

http://cobaltss.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4137863&postcount=41

Here is a little inside video of me going about 70% throttle 0-80 mph! ZZP's Catless Downpipe

sounds good blueberry... does the dp fit the hahn exhaust?

If I were to go with a CIA DP, which one would I have to get. On their site I see 4 different ones. I see that 2 of them are Aluminized and the other 2 are Stainless. I got that part, but whats the whole "Off-Road" stuff mean?

If I were to go with a CIA DP, which one would I have to get. On their site I see 4 different ones. I see that 2 of them are Aluminized and the other 2 are Stainless. I got that part, but whats the whole "Off-Road" stuff mean?

cat-less

cat-less

Gotcha. Then aluminized and stainless is just what ever you prefer correct?

cat-less

Gotcha. Then aluminized and stainless is just what ever you prefer correct?

Gotcha. Then aluminized and stainless is just what ever you prefer correct?

Aluminum rusts and doesn't last as long but it's cheaper.

aluminum rusts and doesn't last as long but it's cheaper.

aluminized!!

aluminized!!

why you say that? Is it not worth the extra money to get the stainless one?

if you are driving in snow and salt. yes.

why you say that? Is it not worth the extra money to get the stainless one?

I'm saying the material is not "aluminum" it's "aluminized" meaning it is between mild steel and stainless steel, but closer to mild steel, for corrosion resistance. Generally speaking, it's not recommended to mix materials in an assembly and the exhaust system on your Cobalt is all stainless so a stainless downpipe would a better choice. I'm not saying you CAN'T mix materials but I wouldn't do it.

why you say that? Is it not worth the extra money to get the stainless one?

I would never put an aluminum exhaust on my car even if I lived in Fl away from snow. If you invest money in your car spend a little extra and invest in quality parts aka 304 stainless steel.

aluminized!!

Thanks for the correction. Brain/finger glitch on my part.
Is it not worth the extra money to get the stainless one?
At ZZP you can get a 304 one for less than the cost of aluminized pipes sold elsewhere. Should be a no brainer. If we did aluminized piping, we could sell them for about 100 bucks. Not sure how many people would put an aluminized part on a turbo car tho...

This has been an informative thread . It's great to see a vendor interact with the community in this way . Thanks for the Info ZZP , you sold at least one DP in this thread ( to me ) and i'm sure a bunch more.

i'm about to buy one next week cuz of this thread

i'm about to buy one next week cuz of this thread

I thought it would be a good idea to get everyones attention and vendors competing :)

ZZP stainless steel catless DP for $229.99, and ZERO codes. How could you not buy that?

well, I pulled the trigger and just bought a catted stainless 3" downpipe from ZZP, $304 shipped to my door, can't beat that

Whatever is the cheapest, stainless steel option.

:lol:

I bought ZZP's catless DP and I couldn't be happier. ZZP definitely does not sacrifice quality for the price.

ZZP stainless steel catless DP for $229.99, and ZERO codes. How could you not buy that?

well, I pulled the trigger and just bought a catted stainless 3" downpipe from ZZP, $304 shipped to my door, can't beat that

I bought ZZP's catless DP and I couldn't be happier. ZZP definitely does not sacrifice quality for the price.

i'm with these guys the zzp catless dp is sweet and i got it for an amazing price but the stock dp was a PAIN IN THE ASS to get out i broke a buddies swivel socket taking the thing off but it was well worth it

i'm with these guys the zzp catless dp is sweet and i got it for an amazing price but the stock dp was a PAIN IN THE ASS to get out i broke a buddies swivel socket taking the thing off but it was well worth it

^x2. I didn't break anything, but it took me two days of trying, some WD40, and buying a rachet with breaker bar mode to get off one last bolt.

It really sucked having the whole thing off except for one bolt you can't get off... and then have to put it back on so you can drive it to work and try again the next day. Talk about suspense and being so close yet so far. :thumbsdow :lol:

I bet the bolt you had trouble with was the top bolt on the rear flange. If you remove all three nuts from the FRONT flange, pull the down pipe to the rear to remove it from the studs and let that end drop, or even pull it down a little to get access, then use a ratcheting box wrench on the top nut I think you'll find the install much easier. This is the procedure I used on my 11,000 mile sedan and the down pipe practically FELL out of the car. And I did the job on 2 jack stands under the front of the car in about 20 minutes. Also, remember to remove the O2 sensor before completely removing the stock down pipe or you'll need a buddy to hold the pipe as you bust a nut trying to turn it out. Just twist the wire as you turn it out, then remember to twist it again when reinstalling it in the new DP and the wire will unwind as it goes in. BINGO. Time for a beer!

I bet the bolt you had trouble with was the top bolt on the rear flange. If you remove all three nuts from the FRONT flange, pull the down pipe to the rear to remove it from the studs and let that end drop, or even pull it down a little to get access, then use a ratcheting box wrench on the top nut I think you'll find the install much easier. This is the procedure I used on my 11,000 mile sedan and the down pipe practically FELL out of the car. And I did the job on 2 jack stands under the front of the car in about 20 minutes. Also, remember to remove the O2 sensor before completely removing the stock down pipe or you'll need a buddy to hold the pipe as you bust a nut trying to turn it out. Just twist the wire as you turn it out, then remember to twist it again when reinstalling it in the new DP and the wire will unwind as it goes in. BINGO. Time for a beer!

there are 4 bolts on the front flange and the last one on the front i had to use 2 extensions and a swivle socket to get it and that made the rear one easier but it was tight as hell so it didn't help

there are 4 bolts on the front flange and the last one on the front i had to use 2 extensions and a swivle socket to get it and that made the rear one easier but it was tight as hell so it didn't help

Whoops! Correct. 4 nuts. Typo! The ratching box wrench helped there too. If they had been around when I was a Snap On dealer I could have been a rich man.

Whoops! Correct. 4 nuts. Typo! The ratching box wrench helped there too. If they had been around when I was a Snap On dealer I could have been a rich man.

haha yea it's no biggie that's actually what i had to do but that last one was a pain :lol:

+1 on ZZP shipping


ordered it in the a.m. Saturday morning... it shipped today and will be here Thursday

ZZP stocks all of our products. When you order, the parts ship the same day if you order by 4pm.

Wish I would have known that when I ordered my DP a while ago, lol

I got the ZZP downpipe..... was at my door in 7 days because they had to add the angled 02 bung....

But the kept in contact with me about it!

Clear Image also has down pipes in stock. Same day shipping and we are offering $50.00 off retail right now.

There was a reason we were not able to keep them in stock prior to now; everyone wanted our products and we had trouble keeping up. :)

We offer the Best quality and finish work available.

Thanks all.

i dont see synapseturbo on that list lol

Clear Image also has down pipes in stock. Same day shipping and we are offering $50.00 off retail right now.

There was a reason we were not able to keep them in stock prior to now; everyone wanted our products and we had trouble keeping up. :)

We offer the Best quality and finish work available.

Thanks all.

Definitely Dan!! :)

Product is superb! I felt bad putting it on the car!

Definitely Dan!! :)

Product is superb! I felt bad putting it on the car!

yay!, a fellow CIA dp owner, lol. How does it sound? do you have it on the stock exhaust or did you get an aftermarket one?

yay!, a fellow CIA dp owner, lol. How does it sound? do you have it on the stock exhaust or did you get an aftermarket one?

still on stock catback. Sounds amazing though! :)

you get any loud pops between shifts? every now and then I scare the poo out of myself when a loud pop reverberates off the car next to me into my ear. It happens when im not driving the car hard at all, not even the turbo is engaged when it happens. During NLS you get that nice pop as well around 6000rpms.

you get any loud pops between shifts? every now and then I scare the poo out of myself when a loud pop reverberates off the car next to me into my ear. It happens when im not driving the car hard at all, not even the turbo is engaged when it happens. During NLS you get that nice pop as well around 6000rpms.

I do, even more since I'm catless. You should have heard the thing when I was catless and muffler delete. OMG.

Sounded like a shotgun went off. The next day I welded my muffler back on. I was THAT guy.

i wish I was that guy just so i can get a damn catless DP :(

I dont have my stock muffler but I think im gonna wind up with a nice fart cannon. I have never EVER had a fart cannon on any car I owned. But im thinking I wanna try like a megan racing or the Ark muffler or something. I wanna find something nice. 4"-4.5" outlet

custom had a guy by me make it for me 3 inch with zzp flex and 2 o2 bungs:) custom fit to my car to make sure fit perfectly.

damn no one sopporting hahn here? sure they are expesive. but i cant really comment on much. i got their modpipe. with cutout and cat. but im at work 7 hours away from my car so i cant even put it on. will let you guys know what i think once i get to it.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/2004PontiacGTP/2008%20Cobalt%20SS/S3010063.jpg


HOPEFULLY going on tomorrow(if the exhaust shop can get to it before I go into work)... if not, I'm going to install it myself Saturday, I can do it... but it will take them MUCH less time than me, lol.... but there is no way in hell I'd be able to wait until Monday, shit, I almost got out the jack and work light tonight, lol

why pay someone to do it, when it took me 20 mins to do myself on jack stands

I payed 10 dollars.

lol, I get a loud shotgun backfire every now and then compared to the smaller ones. sometimes those loud one come up and surprise me when Im just shifting normal.

Try catless! ;)

No! I love trees. they bring me 0^2

lol, maybe i'll buy a second dp.... a catless one, and switch between the two? that sounds like fun. I just need to get the right tools, I got jack stands finally, just need the 10" extentsion.

No! I love trees. they bring me 0^2

lol, maybe i'll buy a second dp.... a catless one, and switch between the two? that sounds like fun. I just need to get the right tools, I got jack stands finally, just need the 10" extentsion.

And, I think it's, a 15mm ratcheting box wrench. You'll thank me the first time you take the down pipe down. Drop the front first. Remember to, at least, loosen the O2 sensor before you completely remove the down pipe. Then remove the rear nuts and be careful cause it may fall out of the car on top of you.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e74/2004PontiacGTP/2008%20Cobalt%20SS/S3010063.jpg


HOPEFULLY going on tomorrow(if the exhaust shop can get to it before I go into work)... if not, I'm going to install it myself Saturday, I can do it... but it will take them MUCH less time than me, lol.... but there is no way in hell I'd be able to wait until Monday, shit, I almost got out the jack and work light tonight, lol

Ugggg

Who's is that? Looks like a cermaic core cat?

Ugggg

Who's is that? Looks like a cermaic core cat?

looks like zzp and its the magnaflow cat i think

looks like zzp and its the magnaflow cat i think

Everybody buying a catted down pipe should do a little research on line to learn the advantages and disadvantages of the ceramic core V metal matrix core cats. Then ask the down pipe manufacturer which one he is using. DON'T believe all the convertor manufacturer's claims. They want to sell THEIR product. Do your own research on technical and engineering sites and judge for your self.

Just a heads up.

Man that down pipe is ugly!!!

Everybody buying a catted down pipe should do a little research on line to learn the advantages and disadvantages of the ceramic core V metal matrix core cats. Then ask the down pipe manufacturer which one he is using. DON'T believe all the convertor manufacturer's claims. They want to sell THEIR product. Do your own research on technical and engineering sites and judge for your self.

Just a heads up.

Man that down pipe is ugly!!!

Atleast its under the car!

And if that is ceramic core I would return it in a heart beat!

Everybody buying a catted down pipe should do a little research on line to learn the advantages and disadvantages of the ceramic core V metal matrix core cats. Then ask the down pipe manufacturer which one he is using. DON'T believe all the convertor manufacturer's claims. They want to sell THEIR product. Do your own research on technical and engineering sites and judge for your self.

Just a heads up.

Man that down pipe is ugly!!!

Dyno the 2, then come post about it.

Dyno the 2, then come post about it.

Don't get your panties in a bunch. I'm just suggesting that people investigate before they spend their hard earned money. And that goes for everything else they think, or are convinced by the manufacturer, is going to improve performance.

The bling thing is self evident.

Dyno the 2, then come post about it.

Send me one and I'll dyno it for you vs catless, MM catted and yours

If it shows higher gains on the same dyno, w/ the same modifications I'll purchase it. Until then...Ceramic has higher restrictions, clogs easier due to heat, and overall a cheaper product vs a MM cat. Magnaflow is using MM cats finally now I see as well...So which one are you using? The cheap Ceramic core or the more expensive MM.

MES now offeres a downpipe incase you guys didnt know...comes with a magnaflow high flow cat

http://www.mandrelexhaustsystems.com/images/Cobalt_DP_4B_Cat_pic.gif
http://www.mandrelexhaustsystems.com/images/Cobalt_DP_4B_Cat2_pic.gif
$235.00 3 Inch, Aluminized Steel
$275.00 3 Inch, 304 Stainless Steel



**im not seling anything just posting what i found when i was looking for a catback for my car**

The welds on that downpipe are very ugly, looks mig.

The flex is braided interior which will fail and kill performance.

The pipe looks like mild steel with a coat of paint on it to mask the not so attractive appearance.

i dnt see coating on it, you can tell bc u can see the streaks on the actual steel on the top pics pipe as it leads to the triple bolt flange, paint would of covered it up, and i think that pic is aluminized steel...they do offer a sst304 from what i have seen, and im not one for caring how it was welded, no one will see it under the car, as long as it can do the job and do it right i wouldnt care...ive worked on the catback they make and i have to say for the cost is kicks ass which is why im looking at getting, dont get nme wrong not bashing you zoomer, i like the stuff u guys make too, but sometimes u have to be economic about things...why pay top dollar for the prettiest downpipe...when u will only see it when ur installing it....now a intake on the other hand is another story, hence why im buying ur guys 3" intake...it looks fucking AWESOME can wait to get it

i dnt see coating on it, you can tell bc u can see the streaks on the actual steel on the top pics pipe as it leads to the triple bolt flange, paint would of covered it up, and i think that pic is aluminized steel...they do offer a sst304 from what i have seen, and im not one for caring how it was welded, no one will see it under the car, as long as it can do the job and do it right i wouldnt care...ive worked on the catback they make and i have to say for the cost is kicks ass which is why im looking at getting, dont get nme wrong not bashing you zoomer, i like the stuff u guys make too, but sometimes u have to be economic about things...why pay top dollar for the prettiest downpipe...when u will only see it when ur installing it....now a intake on the other hand is another story, hence why im buying ur guys 3" intake...it looks fucking AWESOME can wait to get it

I think you're right. I may have jumped the gun on the coating. True on the DP welds, mig is fine if done right. Just doesn't look at good.

Flex still stands though. inner braid cost us untold thousands in warranty repairs many years ago.

http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/flex1.jpg
http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/flex2.jpg
http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/double-braid-problem.jpg

MES now offeres a downpipe incase you guys didnt know...comes with a magnaflow high flow cat

http://www.mandrelexhaustsystems.com/images/Cobalt_DP_4B_Cat_pic.gif
http://www.mandrelexhaustsystems.com/images/Cobalt_DP_4B_Cat2_pic.gif
$235.00 3 Inch, Aluminized Steel
$275.00 3 Inch, 304 Stainless Steel



**im not seling anything just posting what i found when i was looking for a catback for my car**

Just for the purpose of comparison.

http://cobaltss.net/forums/showthread.php?t=156524
http://www.turbosystem.com/ProjectVehicles/New_Folder/Cobalt/CobaltTC%20cat%20downpipe.htm

lulz at CIA fanbois....

lulz at CIA fanbois....

I don't understand all your abbreviations but if you'll notice I posted TWO links.

I just noticed you're in the service of our country. I wan't to say a SINCERE "Thank You!"

Just for the purpose of comparison.

http://cobaltss.net/forums/showthread.php?t=156524
http://www.turbosystem.com/ProjectVehicles/New_Folder/Cobalt/CobaltTC%20cat%20downpipe.htm

Both of those are MUCH nicer than the pictured one IMHO. They are similar to ZZP in that we're all using interlock flex, 304 stainless, angled O2 bungs, tig welding, etc. The largest difference is probably that they cost nearly double what ZZP's do (and before someone says something about the cats, even the catless pipes reflect the same 50-100% higher pricing). But then again, we've been selling a lot of LNF downpipes lately, I think people are getting it;)

lulz at CIA fanbois....

Actually I have Hahn Catted

With the small size of our DP's, the fact the Turbo is so close the CAT....I cannot see how any company would go w/ a ceramic core on this application. Especially for those that are tuned. The high temps, and exhaust flow from the turbo is just going to destory that core.

And since dyno's mentioned....Like I said I'll test out "your theory".

Both of those are MUCH nicer than the pictured one IMHO. They are similar to ZZP in that we're all using interlock flex, 304 stainless, angled O2 bungs, tig welding, etc. The largest difference is probably that they cost nearly double what ZZP's do (and before someone says something about the cats, even the catless pipes reflect the same 50-100% higher pricing). But then again, we've been selling a lot of LNF downpipes lately, I think people are getting it;)

yup yup, have to agree with zoomer, hahn overcharges for the exact samething u can get elsewhere

hey zzp PM me a price for a 3inch cut-out option that is the only thing keeping me from getting yours right now I want a cut-out for track use and shows lol. I am sticking forever with my stock cat-back with muffler delete. I want to put an electric valve on it eventually.

Ugggg

Who's is that? Looks like a cermaic core cat?

I'm curious. What is that tube sticking out of the cat pointing forward? Not judging, just asking. Is that the O2 bung? Please somebody tell me it's not.

thats what it looks like to me

thats what it looks like to me

It looks like it's getting ready to piss! But upside down. Needs a raincoat.

Dyno the 2, then come post about it.

A couple of dyno runs are not going to show the longevity of the performance and durability of one Dp to another.
We have more into our Dp then most know, we have already made improvements that will insure the performance and longevity of our Dp over others.

Ordered my ZZP Catless today

The welds on that downpipe are very ugly, looks mig.

The flex is braided interior which will fail and kill performance.

The pipe looks like mild steel with a coat of paint on it to mask the not so attractive appearance.

I find it interesting you have chosen to attack another companies workmanship. Why don't you post a close-up of your down pipe? The entire down-pipe, not just parts of it.

Dyno the 2, then come post about it.

For the record, we switched from ceramic core converters to metallic core converters over 6 years ago. Not because they cost less, because they actually cost more, but we switched for two reasons:
1. they flow better and allow the engine to produce more power.
2. They are stronger and much more resistant to physical shock/damage.

Both of those are MUCH nicer than the pictured one IMHO. They are similar to ZZP in that we're all using interlock flex, 304 stainless, angled O2 bungs, tig welding, etc. The largest difference is probably that they cost nearly double what ZZP's do (and before someone says something about the cats, even the catless pipes reflect the same 50-100% higher pricing). But then again, we've been selling a lot of LNF downpipes lately, I think people are getting it;)

Interesting... But not accurate. You are trying to have people believe this is an "apples to apples" comparison of products. It is not. Your down-pipes are not similar but for the fact they replace the stock down-pipe using factory flanges.

You say the largest difference is the price? Not even close. You are advertising 100% 304 stainless, yet the ceramic core converter you offer is made of 409 stainless (high carbon steel content and will rust). The 304 stainless tubing you use does not show any production numbers or tubing manufacturer. It appears you are using Chinese made 304 stainless instead of "Rath Gibson" tubing which is made in America. We have tried Chinese 304 stainless ourselves and it is lower quality. It is slightly magnetic which reflects the high carbon steel content, it bends easier (also reflects the higher carbon steel content). It costs less but in my opinion the lack of quality wasn't worth the compromise. The flex coupler you use is longer and is being angle welded. This allows you to rely on the flex coupler to replace the first bend in the tube, instead of taking the time to duplicate the factory bends and rotation. Your "angled O2 bung" is not similar in any way to ours or Hahns. You are simply bending a piece of tubing and welding it on. With all of these differences, of course you can sell your down-pipes for less. Not to mention the $30.00 minimum profit you make on customers stock catalytic converters when they return them to you.

Customers are better off recycling the cat converters themselves. They can get $80.00 to $120.00 depending on the time of year.

So, for a limited time only, to show everyone our appreciation and our commitment to the absolute highest quality, we are happy to match ZZP pricing on stainless down-pipes.

But, for the same price you get the following:
100% 304 stainless tubing; Rath Gibson brand , made in America.
Mandrel bent tubing which duplicates the factory design perfectly, no short cuts using the flex coupler to replace a bend.
Correctly designed and fabricated O2 sensor chamber.
Superior flowing and constructed metallic core substrate converters using 100% 304 stainless, not ceramic core converters using inferior 409 stainless steel.
Heck, we'll even work with our customers to get them the best price for their used, stock converters.

Here's a link to a large picture of our stainless, catted Down-pipe with metallic core converter and dump option.
Feel free to click on the picture to enlarge. We are very proud of our work and have nothing to hide:
http://www.clearimageautomotive.com/Products/P1070045.JPG

Served :lol:

To those holding off or shopping around, this is an incredible deal.

I couldn't be happier with my downpipe from CIA. It's beautiful, substantial, flows great, and sounds amazing. The workmanship I've witnessed on their products is frankly unparalleled by anything else I've seen.

Served :lol:

Served up a plate of BS.:lol:

Dan, you should find out the truth about your claims before posting them. We don't use Chinese tubing. We don't cheat the bend with an angled weld. We don't do a lot of things you are trying to state as fact. You might want to edit your post or retract your claims made purely by assumption.

The bottom line is that a lot of companies charge too much for these types of products. The community should be grateful that ZZP is willing to price things fairly, forcing our competitors to stop over-charging.

Served it back...

By the rules of serving, it's now "on". ;)

Hey Dan! Can I trade in my catted DP for the catted cutout? Hoho! Or maybe I'll just go ahead and take the deal on the catless DP and have the two of them, the catted and catless on hand. It's gonna be hard to pass this up. Or maybe the catted, dump and sell my catted pipe. What's the price on the catted, dump as shown. PM me if you want.

Served up a plate of BS.:lol:

Dan, you should find out the truth about your claims before posting them. We don't use Chinese tubing. We don't cheat the bend with an angled weld. We don't do a lot of things you are trying to state as fact. You might want to edit your post or retract your claims made purely by assumption.

The bottom line is that a lot of companies charge too much for these types of products. The community should be grateful that ZZP is willing to price things fairly, forcing our competitors to stop over-charging.

Hmmm? Here's your picture from your website of your LNF down pipe:
https://www.zzperformance.com/products_img/1016_1.jpg

Sure looks like you are using "cheater bends" to me. Post a decent picture so everyone can take a good look. A picture like this:
http://www.clearimageautomotive.com/Products/Dan%20Ferraro%20Pics%20006.jpg
Clearly, you can see there are two distinct bends in our down-pipe.

As for American made or Chinese stainless; American made is clearly marked as can be seen here:
http://www.clearimageautomotive.com/Products/P1070045.JPG
It has a very distinct appearance, is bright and shiny, not dull as your stainless appears.
Almost every one of our down-pipes has the laser etched markings.

I don't feel the need to edit anything as you can very easily post pictures of your down-pipe with markings from an American tubing manufacturer. if you are using a different tubing manufacturer to save money, there is nothing wrong with that. I am simply pointing out the fact your comparison of YOUR down-pipe and OUR down-pipe are NOT similar. Specifically NOT similar enough to fairly compare prices.

The community should be greatfule to ZZP? For what? You are pricing things fairly but you are using less expensive coverters, less tubing, possibly tubing NOT made in the USA, less bends (equals less time to produce), a lower quality O2 connection and your giving customers $50.00 for a converter they can most likely get $100.00 for.

If you want to compare prices and products "fairly", then actually build your down-pipes the same way we, and Hahn, build ours. Until then, you are simply offering "Walmart prices for Walmart products". There's nothing wrong with Walmart, but don't pretend to be Macy's...

If you want to compare prices and products "fairly", then actually build your down-pipes the same way we, and Hahn, build ours. Until then, you are simply offering "Walmart prices for Walmart products". There's nothing wrong with Walmart, but don't pretend to be Macy's...

Love that quote....ZZP was around in the clubgp days when I was active there. I chose to not use them as a vendor...but funny quote

Served it back...

By the rules of serving, it's now "on". ;)

ROFL. This is awesome! I wish I waited for my DP now... Dang it.
I might buy a second one too lol. or get the one with a cutout and plate, and sell my catted one.

http://sites.commercecreators.com/folder456/site_images_system/user/dp1.bmp
That sure looks like an actual bend to me.

http://sites.commercecreators.com/folder456/site_images_system/user/dp2.bmp
http://sites.commercecreators.com/folder456/site_images_system/user/dp3.bmp
Those sure look like American made tubes to me.

Also, not all of our tubing is marked the same as tubing that would typically be prepared for retail sale. We purchase in much higher quantity than most vendors. Our tubing is the same price as your Gibson tubing, yet you continue to make assumptions and post them here without any regard for the actual truth.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s149/mdub25200/0529091514-00.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s149/mdub25200/0529091525-02.jpg

I have this pipe... yes there is a bend.... YES it's american made... and YES it fits and works perfectly!

The only issue I had was the 02 bung was a little far down the pipe which I contacted them about and they fixed!

By the way this is ZZP's.

:gets the popcorn:

this is exciting :)

[...waves the ZZP flag....]

Bought the catted one had it in two days, loved it, decided to go catless, had that one in two days also.

Not saying anything negative about any others, just pleased with ZZP. Peace out. :)

[/waves]

I'm kinda turning over getting another downpipe from CIA in catless form now if this offer is for real. :lol:

I'm kinda turning over getting another downpipe from CIA in catless form now if this offer is for real. :lol:

should have done it from the start! ;)

That sure looks like an actual bend to me.

Those sure look like American made tubes to me.

Also, not all of our tubing is marked the same as tubing that would typically be prepared for retail sale. We purchase in much higher quantity than most vendors. Our tubing is the same price as your Gibson tubing, yet you continue to make assumptions and post them here without any regard for the actual truth.

I suggest you up-date your website with a better picture since the only picture you have of the entire down-pipe is the one I referenced above. The bend can not be distinguished.

As for the American made tubing, whatever those pictures are of, are made in America but I question the type of tubing. 304 stainless is clearly marked with the batch, mill and heat numbers, as well as the date it was manufactured.

As for tubing "being typically prepared for retail sale", tubing is made in 20 or 24 foot lengths. It is bundled in 500 foot quantities. The laser etched information is marked from end to end. Last I checked no retail store had 1000 pound items for carry out. :)
If your 304 stainless tubing "is the same price as Gibson tubing", and the same quality, why so reluctant to tell everyone the brand name?

As for "continue to make assumptions and post them here without any regard for the actual truth", back-up to page 3 where Zoomer started with the asumptions. Don't come into a thread and start making "assumptions", trying to shed doubt on other companies products and bashing the workmanhsip of other manufacturers, and then get all up-set when you get called on it. This thread was started by the members for other members to vote on what they considered to be the "best down pipe".

As for the truth, we have ALWAYS been 100% up-front with this community about our products; how they are made, what material they are made from, flow numbers, dyno numbers, installation, etc, etc. Someone is certainly trying to twist the truth in this thread, and it isn't us. Zoomer had tried to shed doubt about the way "other companies" build their down-pipes and got called on it. He has posted false information about aluminized tubing vs mild steel vs aluminum, when called on it, he back-tracked. Zoomer has made smart a$$ replies to members who were simply offering general info to other members; page 8 post #134. Zoomer failed to answer direct questions about your product from members in this thread, specifically Page 8, post # 136. Instead of answering the question about which converter you use, he re-directed attention to a picture of another companies down-pipe and started bashing the quality. Again, he was called out for his statements about the weld and coating and back-tracked.

You guys are very good at escaping direct questions and you are very good at "creative marketing". I only picked your down-pipes apart because you tried telling everyone our down pipes are similar except for the price. Simply NOT true.

Instead of trying to get people to believe all the other companies are inferior to ZZP, try telling everyone why ZZP is superior to all others. Offer proof which can be researched independently, post decent pictures instead of extreme close-ups which show nothing but words and welds or blurry pictures which hide details. Answer all questions from members, don't be-little members when they disagree with you, don't bash other companies workmanship. If you want to compare products, then make sure the products are identical.

Dan- we are not going to update our website because you can't tell there is a bend there. After I told you that there is, you posted another response saying that there isn't. That makes you a liar in this instance. Second, Zoom posted aluminum because he types fast. Everyone understood that he meant aluminized. Now you say that he backtracked? He simply said it was a brain glitch. You are attempting to deceive people by even bringing it up.

You complain that you can't see our welds good, so I post a closeup, but it's too close? Wow. You are something else. As far as our proof of our products being superior- our dyno numbers and track times speak for themselves. Last I checked, we are the fastest on the forums with every single Cobalt that we have raced.

K so wait...which is the best and how much is it? lol Too much bickering...

K so wait...which is the best and how much is it? lol Too much bickering...

For the money ZZP's is hard to beat. I paid a ton more for my Hahn DP.

Thank you darling. :)

I suggest you up-date your website with a better picture since the only picture you have of the entire down-pipe is the one I referenced above. The bend can not be distinguished.

As for the American made tubing, whatever those pictures are of, are made in America but I question the type of tubing. 304 stainless is clearly marked with the batch, mill and heat numbers, as well as the date it was manufactured.

As for tubing "being typically prepared for retail sale", tubing is made in 20 or 24 foot lengths. It is bundled in 500 foot quantities. The laser etched information is marked from end to end. Last I checked no retail store had 1000 pound items for carry out. :)
If your 304 stainless tubing "is the same price as Gibson tubing", and the same quality, why so reluctant to tell everyone the brand name?

As for "continue to make assumptions and post them here without any regard for the actual truth", back-up to page 3 where Zoomer started with the asumptions. Don't come into a thread and start making "assumptions", trying to shed doubt on other companies products and bashing the workmanhsip of other manufacturers, and then get all up-set when you get called on it. This thread was started by the members for other members to vote on what they considered to be the "best down pipe".

As for the truth, we have ALWAYS been 100% up-front with this community about our products; how they are made, what material they are made from, flow numbers, dyno numbers, installation, etc, etc. Someone is certainly trying to twist the truth in this thread, and it isn't us. Zoomer had tried to shed doubt about the way "other companies" build their down-pipes and got called on it. He has posted false information about aluminized tubing vs mild steel vs aluminum, when called on it, he back-tracked. Zoomer has made smart a$$ replies to members who were simply offering general info to other members; page 8 post #134. Zoomer failed to answer direct questions about your product from members in this thread, specifically Page 8, post # 136. Instead of answering the question about which converter you use, he re-directed attention to a picture of another companies down-pipe and started bashing the quality. Again, he was called out for his statements about the weld and coating and back-tracked.

You guys are very good at escaping direct questions and you are very good at "creative marketing". I only picked your down-pipes apart because you tried telling everyone our down pipes are similar except for the price. Simply NOT true.

Instead of trying to get people to believe all the other companies are inferior to ZZP, try telling everyone why ZZP is superior to all others. Offer proof which can be researched independently, post decent pictures instead of extreme close-ups which show nothing but words and welds or blurry pictures which hide details. Answer all questions from members, don't be-little members when they disagree with you, don't bash other companies workmanship. If you want to compare products, then make sure the products are identical.

zzziiinnggggggg ;)


And Matt.

you really think your the fastest cobalt on this website? really? thats a cocky statement.

zzziiinnggggggg ;)


And Matt.

you really think your the fastest cobalt on this website? really? thats a cocky statement.

They do have a11sec LNF...but I dont consider what they did simple bolt ons (internal engine work). I would never get rid of my factory brembos for LSJ calibers for a smaller rim just to run what I do not consider fun racing (1/4)...I perfer autox driving. There is more to a car then a dyno and straight line. If you wanted straight lines....I would say you purchased the wrong car honestly.

:lol:

honestly.

This is a website. I know people here have HP numbers over 400. but you dont have to prove anything to people if you dont want to. thats the thing. and if you dont. people get rideculed for it. so whats the point.

im glad ZZp has a good car. bolt ons. ported head. and a tune.

400 HP. its easy to acheive. and they got numbers that they post to back it up.

but its not the fastest.

I dont see what the competition is either. are we all going to get together and take off from a line to see who gets to the end first?

just sayin

I'll be in the low 12s maybe high 11's ON MY OWN... NO SHOP,

my money... my blood and sweat... :D



gimmie about 8-12 months

I'll be in the low 12s maybe high 11's ON MY OWN... NO SHOP,

my money... my blood and sweat... :D



gimmie about 8-12 months

yeah give me 3 years. ill be there too. :lol:

I'm at 12.90s now....

With Charge pipes, catless d/p, and tune... ONLY

gimmie some DR's, and a few other bolt ons... I'll be there no problem

ported head, intercooler, meth, maybe a STS?

weight reduction.

intercooler will be here tomorrow! :D

I like my stock shifter... thank you! I have another "goodie" in the garage that'll take me there.

I'll just need stickier tires afterwards!

lemme know when u need them

zzziiinnggggggg ;)


And Matt.

you really think your the fastest cobalt on this website? really? thats a cocky statement.

Here we go again with the phantom members. It's funny how someone always knows someone faster, but never seems to have any idea who it is. Now if you are going to start brining up tube chassis cars covered with an 80 lb carbon fiber body, 96" long wheelie bars, and running on Methanol, then I will change my statement to include "street" or "daily driver."

It's also funny how there was a 30 page thread about the fastest SS/T, but when we run over 8 tenths quicker, I am told that is not the fastest.

Here we go again with the phantom members. It's funny how someone always knows someone faster, but never seems to have any idea who it is. Now if you are going to start brining up tube chassis cars covered with an 80 lb carbon fiber body, 96" long wheelie bars, and running on Methanol, then I will change my statement to include "street" or "daily driver."

It's also funny how there was a 30 page thread about the fastest SS/T, but when we run over 8 tenths quicker, I am told that is not the fastest.

I said my 2 cents in the beggining of this thread. so im no phantom member.

hungry--400+HP stage 5 hahn turbo
paul-450 HP plus
Victory redSS---RWD conversion. ls2 soon

there are plenty of people on this site with numbers as high as urs. but why prove it to someone who doesnt deserve it. Just nice to see a VENDOR who lashes out at people and other vendors.

Here we go again with the phantom members. It's funny how someone always knows someone faster, but never seems to have any idea who it is. Now if you are going to start brining up tube chassis cars covered with an 80 lb carbon fiber body, 96" long wheelie bars, and running on Methanol, then I will change my statement to include "street" or "daily driver."

It's also funny how there was a 30 page thread about the fastest SS/T, but when we run over 8 tenths quicker, I am told that is not the fastest.


I have a higher trap than j00! :D

Dan- we are not going to update our website because you can't tell there is a bend there. After I told you that there is, you posted another response saying that there isn't. That makes you a liar in this instance. Second, Zoom posted aluminum because he types fast. Everyone understood that he meant aluminized. Now you say that he backtracked? He simply said it was a brain glitch. You are attempting to deceive people by even bringing it up.

You complain that you can't see our welds good, so I post a closeup, but it's too close? Wow. You are something else. As far as our proof of our products being superior- our dyno numbers and track times speak for themselves. Last I checked, we are the fastest on the forums with every single Cobalt that we have raced.

Wow! If you're that fast with ZZP stuff, just IMAGINE how fast you'd be with CIA in your corner.

I'm going to put my dog in this fight now. I hope Dan doesn't get pissed!

Matt, with all the testing, bench flowing and dynoing how come you used a substandard flex that ended up costing you "untold thousands in warranty repairs". I applaud that you warranted the pipes. Especially if you sent the replacement pipe before receiving the warranteed part. But that doesn't help the guy when he needs to get to work. I think you should have done a little more research on quality, long lasting parts more suited to the job intended. You should have the knowledge, being a manufacturer as long as you have. But I do know shit happens.

This is exactly what I mean when I say a manufacturer can design, engineer, use quality components and build something and THEN compute exactly what it cost him to make that something THEN put a price on it that will give the him a reasonable rate of return on investment. The other way is to set a retail price that will be less than the competition, THEN build the item using a design, engineering and components at a cost that will allow that manufacturer a reasonable return on investment. And why, on your web site, do you talk about, "We promise our welds to be 100% leak free. Even the flanges are stainless, which isn't something most companies can say." I'm not an accomplished welder but doesn't welding dissimilar metals, like stainless and mild steel, as you're intimating some manufacturers do, require a highly skilled technique, that would end up costing the manufacturer more time, money and headaches? And what would be the advantages? I'm only asking. As far as the catalytic convertor. There are WAY more websites saying, for high performance, metal matrix is the better choice for many reasons. Examples below are not necessarily the convertors used by either ZZP or CIA but only representative of the information you can find all over the net. They are both by the same manufacturer, Vibrant, so the comparison is not biased. I HONESTLY don't know who manufacturers CIA's cats and there is very little info on Magnaflow cats THAT I HAVE FOUND. Notice how they say mention "high flow REPLACEMENT" for the ceramic? The metal cat is not a REPLACEMENT but a high performance SUBSTITUTE ;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vibrant Ceramic Core Catalytic Converter
Looking for the ultimate high performance high flow replacement catalytic converter? The Vibrant Catalytic Converter has a ceramic core and features a 100% stainless steel shell so it will not rust. Vibrant Ceramic Core Catalytic Converters increase horsepower and torque while still meeting all EPA and CARB requirements so your car can still pass smog!
50,000 Mile Limited Warranty
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vibrant Metal Core Catalytic Converter
When a standard catalytic converter just won't do, we offer to you the Vibrant Metal Core Catalytic Converter. 100% stainless steel construction so it will not rust and provides years of worry free operation. The metal monolith core is much more resistant to the effects of vibration than standard ceramic core catalytic converters and is capable of withstanding much higher temperatures than ceramic catalytic converters. 300 cell per Sq. Inch catalyst flows at 578 CFM, up to 40% better than a typical ceramic core converter. The Vibrant Metal Core catalytic converter is suitable for engines up to 5 liters in displacement.
50,000 Mile Limited Warranty
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But I know you bench tested them all. And price comparisons? CIA is up front and above board with their pricing. $305 catless and $395 catted. You are $240 catless plus $50 catted or $290. Given the difference in the cost of ceramic and metal cats, which CAN BE as much as $100 in some cases, your catted down pipe isn't quite the bargain you would have people believe. Especially if you give a $50 STORE CREDIT for the old cat and then resell it for $100.

If you had started with a quality flex section you might have more credibility with ME. Personally, MY experience has shown that to take a little gamble on a product that may be a little more expensive, but with good reviews, and then be more than satisfied with the product, is worth the gamble. I will return again and again paying the going rate till the manufacturer proves me wrong. In this market a manufacturer has nothing to fall back on but his reputation. both in his product and his dealings with his customers. And even with his dealings with his competitors.

If you can show me one iota of proof of your statement that your products produce more power, PART FOR PART ON THE SAME ENGINE AND ON AN INDEPENDENT IMPARTIAL DYNO, than Hahn or CIA, or anybody elses, I'll buy your down pipe, tell the world about it and keep it as a spare for my CIA pipe, which I doubt I'll ever need.

A little of this post deals with fact. The part about the flex section. The rest is a testamonial to a manufacturer that has satisfied me in every respect. Although I did have to wait a while for my first parts order due to the fact it was a promotion on a new product that was found to not be quite up to the manufacturers standards and he wouldn't release it for shipping till all the bugs were worked out and he could be certain the product was up to his high standards. In the long run it was worth every minute af the wait. " WHEW!" I look forward to my new Cold Air Inlet with the peace of mind that it will look, function and serve my needs at least as well as my charge pipes and catted downpipe.

You see! I can think of a argument for practically everything you're saying. And I'm also sure there are guys out there that can come up with an argument for everything I'm saying. I guess my point is why have a war of words on this forum? You are both in business and vyeing for our business. Advertise the POSITIVES not the NEGATIVES. Tell us why your product is BETTER than the other guys rather than throwing stones at the others product. Not with inuendos but with FACTS. There are plenty of politicians out there to do that for us. And I HATE politicians! We should all buy what suits our purpose, pocket book and is the best thing for us after all things are considered.

And don't send a hit man out for me. This is MY opinion and feelings on this matter.

I said my 2 cents in the beggining of this thread. so im no phantom member.

hungry--400+HP stage 5 hahn turbo
paul-450 HP plus
Victory redSS---RWD conversion. ls2 soon

there are plenty of people on this site with numbers as high as urs. but why prove it to someone who doesnt deserve it. Just nice to see a VENDOR who lashes out at people and other vendors.
I claimed fastest track times, and now you are disproving me by talking about estimated HP numbers that come within 40whp of what we actually dyno and one that is nearly 90whp less. Then you mention a small block V8 car that is yet to be completed. OK, I'm pretty sure he won't be running a 2.0 downpipe on that one.

As far as "VENDOR who lashes out at people and other vendors," do you not notice Dan participating in the debate? We are both discussing this on the same level. He asked for proof that our products work which is how we got into the fastest Cobalts on the site discussion. Don't take any of it personally. It is quite normal for vendors to point out when their products out-perform the competition. This has been going on for as long as there has been advertising.

Buell- you bring up some good points. One thing that I will correct you on- switching to a metal matrix cat would not cost us anywhere close to $100 more. I'm guessing the difference is very small, but we will find out exactly.

So0o0oo0...what are the actual prices on CIA and ZZP catless downpipes right now?

$199 for catless from ZZP

It's what is on my car and has been problem free for 4000 miles now!

Anyone can check my posts... Myself and ZZP have had a rocky road... (Zooomer and Matt M can attest) we've had our battles.

SO Don't say I am a zzp backer... but I chose parts for price point and value and performance.

Why would I pay $300+ for a 304 SS downpipe... when ZZP makes the same damn thing for $100 cheaper with perfect fitment?

Only part I wish I did more research on was my shitastic Dejon pipes

$199 for catless from ZZP

It's what is on my car and has been problem free for 4000 miles now!

Anyone can check my posts... Myself and ZZP have had a rocky road... (Zooomer and Matt M can attest) we've had our battles.

SO Don't say I am a zzp backer... but I chose parts for price point and value and performance.

Why would I pay $300+ for a 304 SS downpipe... when ZZP makes the same damn thing for $100 cheaper with perfect fitment?

Only part I wish I did more research on was my shitastic Dejon pipes

When CIA offers it for the same price as ZZP, as they just did. ;)

Yes this is called marketing...


At the time of my purchase... HAHN and CIA were all much much more expensive....

Now they aren't... A pipe is a fucking pipe people... get over it.

So...what should I get then? lol

They are all the same....

If there are 3 pipes that are $199.99 it's just a matter of brand preference at this point.

CIA and ZZP are all good companies... just take your pick.... MY ZZP fit great and is doing great!

They are all the same....

If there are 3 pipes that are $199.99 it's just a matter of brand preference at this point.

CIA and ZZP are all good companies... just take your pick.... MY ZZP fit great and is doing great!

Yehhh...but ur ZZP pipe makes your 3000 lb SLOW ASS piece of crap sound like ass. Yuckkkkk. J/K. You had any issues with the ZZP pipe besides slight fitment concern? Welds look insane.

I didn't have any fitment problems....

The only issue we had was I was the first with the angled 02 bung... and that placement was a tad to far away. SO I had to undo the 02 sensor wire to give it the extra slack.

Been great so far no leaks, no flexpipe issues... been a great pipe! And looks good too!

My slow ass car... yes this is true. Tell that to the 100' tire marks running down the on ramp to 540!

I'm getting my new intercooler installed tomorrow... so while the car is in the air I'll take some pictures of it installed!

Wait ZZP's is $199??? I payed $239 yesterday?

Wait ZZP's is $199??? I payed $239 yesterday?

Well it was! :lol:

Matt please chime in here please!:confused:

Matt please chime in here please!:confused:

I bought mine 3 months or so ago.... it was $199.99 but the price has gone up since then!

I bought mine 3 months or so ago.... it was $199.99 but the price has gone up since then!

Well shitty. I was busy working in Chicago for the past 3 months:thumbsdow

is it $239 shipped within 48 states? and if its $199.99 again, i will buy it. ZZP, do some sort of GB on the pipe now, and i will buy it.

EDIT: response deleted as there are no winners.

I'd just like to say...............

After numerous posts I've seen by employees of CIA & ZZP on these forums, ... I wouldn't buy anything from either of you :) Bummer too, as I'm placing my order for exhaust almost as I type. I'm even paying slightly more for mine because I find vendor arguments so obnoxious.

I'm sure you both will tell me to go shit in my hat, and thats fine.

I'd just like to say...............

After numerous posts I've seen by employees of CIA & ZZP on these forums, ... I wouldn't buy anything from either of you :) Bummer too, as I'm placing my order for exhaust almost as I type. I'm even paying slightly more for mine because I find vendor arguments so obnoxious.

I'm sure you both will tell me to go shit in my hat, and thats fine.

Completely acceptable. You're right. No one wins in these arguments. I should know better by now. That's actually why I decided to just have some fun with this. It's unfortunate because we really do take great pride in our products and workmanhsip. I guess the moral of the story is "pride". It so often gets in the way and is so easily over-looked as the problem.

Your point is well taken and I have nothing harsh to say to you. I'll chalk it up to a learning experience and concentrate my efforts on custom projects, new designs, quality control and shipping.

Thanks for bringing me back to my senses. As they say, the best way to learn a lesson is the hard way...

ZZP's downpipe is only 199$ Stainless steel.

Sorry but thats substantially cheaper then most and to be honest its a piece of stainless stell with one bend. Pretty difficult to fuck up. Plus ZZP has great customer service. / Thread.

i only hear good things about CIA... ZZP has a shitty rep for .Net..... and morgn at synapseturbo is THE SHIT!!!! i say synapse but you didnt list them

I can rep for Clear Image products. Their craftsmanship is nothing that I have seen before. I felt bad placing the charge pipes and down pipe on the car knowing they'd eventually get dirty.

Not only do they look good, they perform just as well and are fit perfectly.

I'd like to address a few things here.

Dan is a liar. He's lying about ZZP and our products. Consider this:

1. He claimed our pipes don't have 2 bends. We posted a picture proving he is lying and a customer posted backing up the claim.

2. He stated that our pipes are made of Chinese metal and magnetic. Matt posted a picture. I have a video: http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/LNFDP_mpeg4.mp4

Now if we have concrete proof of one lie, 2 lies, 3, what else do you think might be untrue? Claims of HP? Claims of manufacturing?

I already stated that his and Hahn's pipes look great and gave him the benefit of the doubt. I could easily say ZZP's are better because they are. Soon I'll have dyno proof showing the HP numbers on an LNF with our cat and Dan's.

But while we're dick swinging, let me continue to unroll my anaconda:

ZZP and CIA were both started in 1999, we both have mandrel benders in house. But what CIA doesn't have is an ultra sonic cleaner. We do. In fact we clean our pieces before welding to ensure weld purity. CIA has markings all over their pipes because they do not take this step. An ultra-sonic cleaner is expensive and they don't have one. We have a flow bench to check the flow of our parts, Dan doesn't have one. We have a dyno in house to test our parts, Dan doesn't have one. Our employees drive Cobalts and Matt drives an LNF, can CIA say the same?

2nd, I posted about why we use water jet flanges. Dan disagrees so I'll use his tactics. Anyone that wants a laser cut flange, ZZP will downgrade you to that standard at no extra charge! How can we do this? Because ZZP went through 6 months of government application and scrutiny to buy our own laser cutting machine. Yes, it was very expensive and large. Weapons grade large I guess because we weren't allowed to just buy it w/o a background check. But if Dan wants to match our pricing on downpipes, maybe he should email us for a quote on flanges. We don’t use laser cut but he can and we can provide them for a lot less than he’s paying.

3rd, there is a lot of debates about cats. But to date no one has POSTED a dyno comparison. We have done them and I can tell you that the cat we have will make more HP than the metal one discussed. But hey, you can believe me or you can believe someone who has been proven to make up lies about the metal used, the # of bends, the magnetic properties, etc. Or you can believe ZZP. For those that don’t believe ZZP, I have this offer. We will sell you our downpipe with the spun metal cat for the same price. Just email and request the downgrade and once again, we won’t charge you any extra!

4th, on the cat recycling. IT"S AN OPTION!! There is no requirement to send in your old cat. We just offer it as a service that our customers like. They are not worth $100. If they are, I'd like to sell mine to Dan or someone else claiming they are for $70. You can make a free $30, we have dozens. Furthermore, why don't other companies offer you the option? How do you damn ZZP for offering an optional service that you don't offer? It's stupid.

Finally, there has been some confusion about our pricing because of the O2 options on our site. The downpipes are not changing in price, our site is setup with drop downs for options. And upon reading this thread I’m going to show you the business ethics (or lack there-of) of Dan once again. Due to the confusion ZZP is going to lower dowpipe pricing $20, and we’re going to issue a credit to anyone who paid more. Just email with invoice #. I’m betting Dan won’t do the same showing who’s in it for the money and who’s actually being honest about bringing a quality product to the market for an honest price. Furthermore, if Dan is dropping his pricing to match ZZP now, what does that say about gouging the customers to begin with? I’ll let you decide but if this post gets locked or deleted, you can bet it was CIA not wanting customers to read what's in it, not ZZP.

OMG I need more popcorn!!!
:runs to nearest popcorn vendor:

This is Epic to anyone who's looking for a DP sounds like now is greatest time in the world to grab a DP for the LNF cobalt!!!

Snip...

Finally, there has been some confusion about our pricing because of the O2 options on our site. The downpipes are not changing in price, our site is setup with drop downs for options. And upon reading this thread I’m going to show you the business ethics (or lack there-of) of Dan once again. Due to the confusion ZZP is going to lower dowpipe pricing $20, and we’re going to issue a credit to anyone who paid more. Just email with invoice #. I’m betting Dan won’t do the same showing who’s in it for the money and who’s actually being honest about bringing a quality product to the market for an honest price. Furthermore, if Dan is dropping his pricing to match ZZP now, what does that say about gouging the customers to begin with? I’ll let you decide but if this post gets locked or deleted, you can bet it was CIA not wanting customers to read what's in it, not ZZP.

Email sent for credit, thank you!

I'd like to address a few things here.

Dan is a liar. He's lying about ZZP and our products. Consider this:

1. He claimed our pipes don't have 2 bends. We posted a picture proving he is lying and a customer posted backing up the claim.

2. He stated that our pipes are made of Chinese metal and magnetic. Matt posted a picture. I have a video: http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/LNFDP_mpeg4.mp4

Now if we have concrete proof of one lie, 2 lies, 3, what else do you think might be untrue? Claims of HP? Claims of manufacturing?

I already stated that his and Hahn's pipes look great and gave him the benefit of the doubt. I could easily say ZZP's are better because they are. Soon I'll have dyno proof showing the HP numbers on an LNF with our cat and Dan's.

But while we're dick swinging, let me continue to unroll my anaconda:

ZZP and CIA were both started in 1999, we both have mandrel benders in house. But what CIA doesn't have is an ultra sonic cleaner. We do. In fact we clean our pieces before welding to ensure weld purity. CIA has markings all over their pipes because they do not take this step. An ultra-sonic cleaner is expensive and they don't have one. We have a flow bench to check the flow of our parts, Dan doesn't have one. We have a dyno in house to test our parts, Dan doesn't have one. Our employees drive Cobalts and Matt drives an LNF, can CIA say the same?

2nd, I posted about why we use water jet flanges. Dan disagrees so I'll use his tactics. Anyone that wants a laser cut flange, ZZP will downgrade you to that standard at no extra charge! How can we do this? Because ZZP went through 6 months of government application and scrutiny to buy our own laser cutting machine. Yes, it was very expensive and large. Weapons grade large I guess because we weren't allowed to just buy it w/o a background check. But if Dan wants to match our pricing on downpipes, maybe he should email us for a quote on flanges. We don’t use laser cut but he can and we can provide them for a lot less than he’s paying.

3rd, there is a lot of debates about cats. But to date no one has POSTED a dyno comparison. We have done them and I can tell you that the cat we have will make more HP than the metal one discussed. But hey, you can believe me or you can believe someone who has been proven to make up lies about the metal used, the # of bends, the magnetic properties, etc. Or you can believe ZZP. For those that don’t believe ZZP, I have this offer. We will sell you our downpipe with the spun metal cat for the same price. Just email and request the downgrade and once again, we won’t charge you any extra!

4th, on the cat recycling. IT"S AN OPTION!! There is no requirement to send in your old cat. We just offer it as a service that our customers like. They are not worth $100. If they are, I'd like to sell mine to Dan or someone else claiming they are for $70. You can make a free $30, we have dozens. Furthermore, why don't other companies offer you the option? How do you damn ZZP for offering an optional service that you don't offer? It's stupid.

Finally, there has been some confusion about our pricing because of the O2 options on our site. The downpipes are not changing in price, our site is setup with drop downs for options. And upon reading this thread I’m going to show you the business ethics (or lack there-of) of Dan once again. Due to the confusion ZZP is going to lower dowpipe pricing $20, and we’re going to issue a credit to anyone who paid more. Just email with invoice #. I’m betting Dan won’t do the same showing who’s in it for the money and who’s actually being honest about bringing a quality product to the market for an honest price. Furthermore, if Dan is dropping his pricing to match ZZP now, what does that say about gouging the customers to begin with? I’ll let you decide but if this post gets locked or deleted, you can bet it was CIA not wanting customers to read what's in it, not ZZP.


http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/showthread.php?t=183808

This just backs it up.....So nice of a company to bash its possible customers. I would never purchase an item from you, I do not care if the same item was much more from another vendor, I have ethics and make plenty to avoid what I consider shady companies like yours.

Just for your reference

Scrap Convertors (Small GM) 51.04 85.02 each USD
Scrap Convertors (Large GM) 76.71 127.75 each USD

Also changest based on the price of precious metals.

In short I will say that I have had two downpipes now.

Both were of a really high quality.

Oh and the Hahn catted isn't the same as the hahn catless...:lol: some people probably picked up on this.

The ZZP downpipe is a nice, straight, all one piece downpipe.

I may not how loud they bark, and they come off brash...as long as they make good parts I could honestly care fucking less.

I'm on the ZZP web page lookin at downpipes and it gives an option for O2 bung? I don't know much about this kinda thing, but what the hell is that? LOL.

:lol: hahahahahaha

I'm on the ZZP web page lookin at downpipes and it gives an option for O2 bung? I don't know much about this kinda thing, but what the hell is that? LOL.

for the O2 sensor after the catalytic converter :lol:
It screws into it. keeps the car from throwing CELs. the other way would be to delete the code.

I'm on the ZZP web page lookin at downpipes and it gives an option for O2 bung? I don't know much about this kinda thing, but what the hell is that? LOL.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bung

Don't know if this answers your question but I love DICTIONARIES.

Email sent for credit, thank you!

No prob, happy to take care of you!


http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/showthread.php?t=183808

This just backs it up.....So nice of a company to bash its possible customers. I would never purchase an item from you, I do not care if the same item was much more from another vendor, I have ethics and make plenty to avoid what I consider shady companies like yours.

Just for your reference

Scrap Convertors (Small GM) 51.04 85.02 each USD
Scrap Convertors (Large GM) 76.71 127.75 each USD

Also changest based on the price of precious metals.
2 points.

1. My offer stands to you as well. Would you like to buy a bunch of converters for $70? Following that, what if they were worth a million dollars. Do that mean ZZP is ripping people off by offering to buy them but wouldn't be ripping people off if we didn't offer? you're point is not well thought out.

2. I'm not after every customer and I accept the fact that no matter what you sell or how it's marketed, some people will not do business with you. I am after the educated customer who buys the best part for the best price regardless of who's selling it. So far the strategy has led us to be the #1 vendor in our field and it makes sense. Best part + best price will eventually lead to best sales. Lies and screwing over customers works for some companies short term but we're in it for the long term. I could list 20 competitors of ZZPs that have gone out of business. many whom had people backing them like a religious belief only to find out later they stole people's $ and ran. ZZP customers come back because they know what to expect and they like it;)

No prob, happy to take care of you!



2 points.

1. My offer stands to you as well. Would you like to buy a bunch of converters for $70? Following that, what if they were worth a million dollars. Do that mean ZZP is ripping people off by offering to buy them but wouldn't be ripping people off if we didn't offer? you're point is not well thought out.

2. I'm not after every customer and I accept the fact that no matter what you sell or how it's marketed, some people will not do business with you. I am after the educated customer who buys the best part for the best price regardless of who's selling it. So far the strategy has led us to be the #1 vendor in our field and it makes sense. Best part + best price will eventually lead to best sales. Lies and screwing over customers works for some companies short term but we're in it for the long term. I could list 20 competitors of ZZPs that have gone out of business. many whom had people backing them like a religious belief only to find out later they stole people's $ and ran. ZZP customers come back because they know what to expect and they like it;)

To be honest... I am that customer. Zooomer and myself have gotten into it in the past... yet I still bought this downpipe!

for the O2 sensor after the catalytic converter :lol:
It screws into it. keeps the car from throwing CELs. the other way would be to delete the code.

:lol: Thanks for the help. Much appreciated

EDIT: response deleted as there are no winners.

Couldn't have said it any better myself.
And to think I paid $5 for this education in marketing strategy.

Zoomer I sent an email and Turbo Tim replied asking what I was talking about?

Ranting above.

An amazing ability to twist words. I'm through argueing with you guys.

Good luck to ZZP in their marketing of their products and their interaction with the forum members and customers.

To all Clear Image Automotive customers, thanks for your support. To those ordering down pipes today, thanks again.

Let us know what you think of our products upon arrival.

I can vouch for Dan and his workmanship! Grade A! ;)

Zzp.

One more vote for CIA. The welds on my downpipe are beautiful and I am in the manufacturing industry, so I am really picky. The sound is also really nice ,even for the catted version with the stock catback. Actually, I don't want my car to be any louder.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjjLjTibpnI

I applaud both ZZP and CIA. apparently you guys both produce grade A downpipes. Regardless of who's gets 1 more whp, there both beautiful and are a huge improvement over stock.

But as long as you guys are at eachother throats, maybe you can move onto the next cobalt part and see who can produce the best cheapest one of those :lol:

ZZP Intake, ZZP charg piping, ZZP exhaust,

????

Just wanted to say that last night after my post- Dan of CIA reached out to me in a PM. He admitted that fighting on a forum was pointless and generally just a bad idea. He then took 30 minutes out of his day (if you're a busy man, you know how hard that can be) and shot the shit on the phone. Learned some very interesting things about how this forum operates, but I digress. Has been a long time since an aftermarket parts vendor gave me personal attention.

For this show of class I rewarded him with the order of a catted stainless DP. If I like the quality, which I'm sure I will, most likely will hand him more money for some charge pipes.

Trust me, I'm not a shill for any company. I routinely spent a few more bucks with vendors I liked back in my DSM days, and this is no exception.

---

Frankly, I'm of the opinion threads like these are traps for vendors anyway. To the OP, ... its hard to mess up on a DP. Hahn, CIA and ZZP all appear to make decent parts. Hahn has always just been out of control on their prices, this is nothing new. I'll give him credit though he sticks to his guns. The MES DP someone posted way back looked like pure ass. Being a long time DSM owner, I've never liked Dejon parts but nobody really brought them up anyway.

In the end you'll decide how/when to spend your money.

I will say this... a downpipe is a good investment, no matter what route you choose to go.... I went ZZP, it sounds good, the turbo spools faster... and for example, my older brother gave me hell when I told him I was modifying the exhaust on my car... he is your typical "V8 guy" but even he said it sounds MUCH better with the downpipe and he would be the biggest critic if it didn't...

Ordered the Stainless catted DP from CIA! can't wait to get it. THANK YOU DAN for the AWESOME PRICE!!!:cssNET:

Ordered the Stainless catted DP from CIA! can't wait to get it. THANK YOU DAN for the AWESOME PRICE!!!:cssNET:

Awesome price?? LOL ZZP is still 70$ cheaper. That 70$ could have gone towards something else.

Its a fucking pipe with ONE bend in it. Buy the cheapest one you can find. Get the pre returned shipping label and keep the box. If it breaks use the shipping label to send it back for free.

I think its hilarious how everyone in here buys something from someone who hasn't been in the game as long. Has not proven themselves AND charges more.

Damn you guys are a bunch of Saps.

ZZP Intake, ZZP charge piping, ZZP exhaust,

????

Would be interested in what they could bring to the table.

Would be interested in what they could bring to the table.

Me as well. I am going with Injen for now.

Awesome price?? LOL ZZP is still 70$ cheaper. That 70$ could have gone towards something else.

Its a fucking pipe with ONE bend in it. Buy the cheapest one you can find. Get the pre returned shipping label and keep the box. If it breaks use the shipping label to send it back for free.

I think its hilarious how everyone in here buys something from someone who hasn't been in the game as long. Has not proven themselves AND charges more.

Damn you guys are a bunch of Saps.

CIA doesn't have to prove themselves...... they have many happy customer's ( look at the poll) . As it says above "ZZP and CIA were both started in 1999" .

CIA doesn't have to prove themselves...... they have many happy customer's ( look at the poll) . As it says above "ZZP and CIA were both started in 1999" .

You keep swinging on CIA's nuts.

Perfect example of how over priced they are. They charge around 700$ for a 3 inch catback.

I paid 650 for a Stainless 3 inch catback with 2 mufflers on my goat.

I would never pay over 500 for an SS/TC catback.

There website is harder to navigate then anything I have ever seen.

Its just hilarious I have never heard of CIA until I bought a Cobalt Turbo. That should speak enough in itself.

They arent shit in the LSX community. So where are they big ?? Tuning 2.2 Ecotecs? That run 13's ?

Sounds impressive ................ Not.

You keep swinging on CIA's nuts.

Perfect example of how over priced they are. They charge around 700$ for a 3 inch catback.

I paid 650 for a Stainless 3 inch catback with 2 mufflers on my goat.

I would never pay over 500 for an SS/TC catback.

There website is harder to navigate then anything I have ever seen.

Its just hilarious I have never heard of CIA until I bought a Cobalt Turbo. That should speak enough in itself.

They arent shit in the LSX community. So where are they big ?? Tuning 2.2 Ecotecs? That run 13's ?

Sounds impressive ................ Not.

...and I never heard of ZZP, HPTuners, Hahn, CobaltAddiction, Modern Performance, Pedders, Trifecta, TWM, CED, 3bSpec, Dejon, and many others either until I bought a Cobalt... what's your point...

Some makers specialize in certain products. Just as CobaltAddiction doesn't specialize in GTOs or something, CIA doesn't make parts for the GTO. So what if they don't delve into the LSX community... what difference does that make? It doesn't make CIA or any of the others any less of a valid company. There's more out there than just the LSX community (believe it or not). They do make many things for other vehicles though.. just not the GTO. I'm sorry, but this argument you propose just doesn't make any sense.

I think demand has a lot to do with prices... you can get X-pipes and what not for Mustangs A LOT cheaper than we can downpipes, catbacks, and shit... simply because, a company is out to sell a lot more exhaust systems for a GT Mustang, than a SS Cobalt, that is just a reality

that is just basic business, you can pass on savings more if you know you are going to move a lot of the product

CSS Group Buys ftw... :lol:

yeah except those in the f-body and mustang communities pretty much get 24/7 365 group buys compared to our rates

Hahn!!!

Dejon has been in the DSM world for years, as well as Hahn.
Synapse has been into other turbo 4cyl applicataions for quite sometime (mainly honda)
ZZP hasn't just done Cobalts... check their site they do other applications too.
HP Tuners, "was" a strickly GM tuner, and have been around for quite awhile... now into Ford, and Dodge applications as well.

Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean they haven't been around! :D

Thanks ZZP my Catless DP fit perfectly, looked greater, and sounds amazing!!! Also, Zoomer thanks for the $20 credit!

You keep swinging on CIA's nuts.

Perfect example of how over priced they are. They charge around 700$ for a 3 inch catback.

I paid 650 for a Stainless 3 inch catback with 2 mufflers on my goat.

I would never pay over 500 for an SS/TC catback.

There website is harder to navigate then anything I have ever seen.

Its just hilarious I have never heard of CIA until I bought a Cobalt Turbo. That should speak enough in itself.

They arent shit in the LSX community. So where are they big ?? Tuning 2.2 Ecotecs? That run 13's ?

Sounds impressive ................ Not.


Thats the first post i've even mentioned CIA in forever.........no nut swinging here . Althou it seems you have a firm grasp on ZZP's nut's . ...... Don't let go.

Ohhhh and i haven't bought a downpipe yet ........I would most likely buy ZZP's due to price but I keep seeing arrogant posts that keep me from doing it.

Thats the first post i've even mentioned CIA in forever.........no nut swinging here . Althou it seems you have a firm grasp on ZZP's nut's . ...... Don't let go.

Ohhhh and i haven't bought a downpipe yet ........I would most likely buy ZZP's due to price but I keep seeing arrogant posts that keep me from doing it.

We're not arrogant...we're aloof! :)

The ZZP downpipes fit the bill here. To each their own.

A few posts back I stated we are matching ZZP's down pipe prices for a limited time. So the $70.00 additional mentioned above was incorrect.

The down-pipe isn't simply a "pipe with a bend". If this were the case then anyone should be able to make their own dp at home. The down-pipe is actually a two bend 304 stainless tube Mandrel bent by a piece of equipmnt larger than most single car garages and costs anywhere from $100,000.00 to $350,000.00 depending on the specs. There are factory flanges, flex pipe and O2 sensor chamber and the hi-flow converter for the catted dp. The part does look very simple but the ability to manufacture it requires much more than most people realize.

We do make headers for the LS1 Camaro, C5 Vette and ZO6 Corvette. We also make headers for the Silverado truck. However, we do not market to or concentrate on the LSX platform as there are plenty of companies offering headers and exhaust. Though many have not heard about us before, our headers are considered the absolute best in the industry for the markets we do concentrate on. If anyone is curious about Clear Image Automotive, check the 94 - 96 Impala SS sites. Or, do a search for Clear Image automotive, Impala SS headers, Quad-1 headers, GEN II headers. More info than can be read in many weeks is available. Review GM Hi Tech as many featured vehicles use our headers. Also keep an eye on up-coming issues as our intake and exhaust are being featured. I'm confident we have proven ourselves quite well with the quality, workmanship, fit, finish of our products.

As for our website, it's pretty much gone from an Impala SS only site to what it is now. It definitely needs work and it is hard to find products for the Coblat, or pretty much any other vehicle besides the Impala SS. Our website navigation doesn't represent the finished product we produce daily.

Getting back to the LSX platform, stay tuned for a complete roll-out of new products for the 2010 Camaro. We just received a manual with 6.2 Liter V8 today. :)
Thanks all.

What kind of CNC bending machine your using, the ones I use to set up and run 3" pipe on, you could fit about 3 next to each other in a single car garage (stack side by side), though to actually run a single machine you would need a area about the size of a 1 car garage to have enough swing room for the bend and turns. But I will say this people don't realize how hard it is to put a mandrel bend into a 3" pipe without cracking the tube, making the wall to thin in the bend or getting streaks from material getting caught/pushed through the bend. Its a misconception that a smaller tube is harder to bend, but in fact is easier. Heh, if I had the money I would have bought 3 bending machines years ago and went into business for myself, those things are EXPENSIVE (end rant).

The real question though is how long are you going price match ZZP, is this going be a permanent thing or just temporary as first stated? Probably be a few months before I get mine, but I'm not going to lie, if ZZP's are cheaper I'm getting it, because I would say you two make comparable SS DP's (all the arguing aside), so it would be stupid for me to go with a more expensive one that is the same.

What kind of CNC bending machine your using, the ones I use to set up and run 3" pipe on, you could fit about 3 next to each other in a single car garage (stack side by side), though to actually run a single machine you would need a area about the size of a 1 car garage to have enough swing room for the bend and turns. But I will say this people don't realize how hard it is to put a mandrel bend into a 3" pipe without cracking the tube, making the wall to thin in the bend or getting streaks from material getting caught/pushed through the bend. Its a misconception that a smaller tube is harder to bend, but in fact is easier.

My guess is since ive never tried to bend my downpipe that its alot harder than the thin-walled mild steel pipe you're thinking of... hence larger more powerful equipment needed.

Go zzp they make awesome products..

Awesome price?? LOL ZZP is still 70$ cheaper. That 70$ could have gone towards something else.

Its a fucking pipe with ONE bend in it. Buy the cheapest one you can find. Get the pre returned shipping label and keep the box. If it breaks use the shipping label to send it back for free.

I think its hilarious how everyone in here buys something from someone who hasn't been in the game as long. Has not proven themselves AND charges more.

Damn you guys are a bunch of Saps.

Very grown up post. What are your facts to be able to prove that CIA has not proven themseleves. No disrespect to ZZP or anyone who supports them, but this is AMERICA if I want to spend 70$ more for something that I think in MY HUMBLE OPINION is a better product, what concern is it of yours. It really makes me angry when people have to rain on others parades. If your going to post back how ZZP's Cobalt goes 11.9 in quarter mile you can save it for someone else. Its no doubt that they have done all the right things to make good power to have that kind of an ET. Again no disrespect ZZP or any who supports them.

Very grown up post. What are your facts to be able to prove that CIA has not proven themseleves. No disrespect to ZZP or anyone who supports them, but this is AMERICA if I want to spend 70$ more for something that I think in MY HUMBLE OPINION is a better product, what concern is it of yours. It really makes me angry when people have to rain on others parades.

I think that people are a little aggressive in backing their opinions. However, you are subject to the same phenomena. On one hand you say that it makes you angry to have people rain on your parade but in the same post you say that yours is a better product. Seems like the same type of thing.

I would like to hear from you and anyone else that feels CIA is making a better produt though. I want to know how you come to this conclusion.

We posted point after point with pictures about our product and CIA's. CIA did the same but was shown to not be telling the truth about the #'s bends (both pipes have 2), the magnetic quality of the material (I posted a video), the US part vs. Chinese (Matt posted pictures), etc. So we're left with the welds, ZZP posted close up, I do not believe CIA did but I never knocked the quality of their welds. ZZP sonic cleans their parts before welding, ZZP uses water jet instead of laser cut flanges. ZZP has offered to use laser jet flanges for anyone that wants them or to use the same cat as CIA so what are we left with? I would like to know how their piece is superior to ours so that I can improve our product. So far this thread has only turned up lies, controversial information, a bunch of customers who like both companies, and data on the ZZP pipes distinguishing them from our competitors.

I think that people are a little aggressive in backing their opinions. However, you are subject to the same phenomena. On one hand you say that it makes you angry to have people rain on your parade but in the same post you say that yours is a better product. Seems like the same type of thing.

I would like to hear from you and anyone else that feels CIA is making a better produt though. I want to know how you come to this conclusion.

We posted point after point with pictures about our product and CIA's. CIA did the same but was shown to not be telling the truth about the #'s bends (both pipes have 2), the magnetic quality of the material (I posted a video), the US part vs. Chinese (Matt posted pictures), etc. So we're left with the welds, ZZP posted close up, I do not believe CIA did but I never knocked the quality of their welds. ZZP sonic cleans their parts before welding, ZZP uses water jet instead of laser cut flanges. ZZP has offered to use laser jet flanges for anyone that wants them or to use the same cat as CIA so what are we left with? I would like to know how their piece is superior to ours so that I can improve our product. So far this thread has only turned up lies, controversial information, a bunch of customers who like both companies, and data on the ZZP pipes distinguishing them from our competitors.

You just don't give up, do you. Enough already!! People are tired of hearing this stuff over and over again. You make a decent piece, CIA makes a decent piece. Nobody here is going to buy BOTH and compare them then send the one they don't like back. I bought CIA because there are things I like about THEM AND their product. People buy from you because they like your prices. And you can't argue that point. Just read the posts. Some of us are loyal to a product, some to a dollar.You're both proud of your products, rightly so. But let it rest. You get yours. CIA gets theirs. There's plenty of business to go around and everybody's happy.

I would like to hear from you and anyone else that feels CIA is making a better produt though. I want to know how you come to this conclusion.



For me the main decider was way they seem to handle themselves on this forum. And also I did research about ceramic core V metal matrix core cats. And what I found was Ceramic core just don't last overtime and can't handle what a metal matrix can.