take a look at this !?!
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take a look at this !?!
i don't know how accurate this is but it seems to be really inexpensive unless their is alot more to be bought. how true is this...i thought no one has come out with a turbo yet?
http://sportcompactonly.com/products.aspx?l=2&c=100079
http://sportcompactonly.com/products.aspx?l=2&c=100079
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Originally Posted by SilverStreak
the hardware is cheap in itself... it's the special tuning and all the related stuff that's expensive.
in most cases, you get what you pay for
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you can't just buy any turbo either... somebody said that, too lazy to press back and quote it 
If it were that easy i would just buy a turbo form one of the mazdaspeed protege with a blown engine (the rods on those things are **** and they blow left and right) for a few hundred bucks and build my own turbo kit. You need a turbo that flows correctly for your engine and wont create to much back pressure or is too big for the exhaust flow of your engine.
If it were that easy i would just buy a turbo form one of the mazdaspeed protege with a blown engine (the rods on those things are **** and they blow left and right) for a few hundred bucks and build my own turbo kit. You need a turbo that flows correctly for your engine and wont create to much back pressure or is too big for the exhaust flow of your engine.
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a turbo operates off of the pressure of the exhaust from your engine. The exhaust spins the turbine compressing the air and forcing it into your engine. Putting a small turbo on a high displacement engine can cause far too much back pressure and damage the engine. You want as much flow as possible when it comes to turbos but you don't want to get to huge because the bigger it is the more lag it will have...a turbo does not operate off of heat or back pressure...those are the two biggest enemies of a turbo car.
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Originally Posted by 8cd03gro
a turbo operates off of the pressure of the exhaust from your engine. The exhaust spins the turbine compressing the air and forcing it into your engine. Putting a small turbo on a high displacement engine can cause far too much back pressure and damage the engine. You want as much flow as possible when it comes to turbos but you don't want to get to huge because the bigger it is the more lag it will have...a turbo does not operate off of heat or back pressure...those are the two biggest enemies of a turbo car.
To assume that you want a lot of backpressure or heat on a turbo engine, or any for that matter, isn't correct. Sky high EGT's are not what you want to shoot for obviously. What I'm saying is that with no backpressure or exhaust velocity, a turbo would not spool for a very very long time, if at all.
NextLevel - I am suprised if the SMS kit is still sold, it's garbage IMO. Have seen 0 dyno sheets or timeslips from it. After the s-series kit that was released and failed I can only imagine.
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back pressure is the pressure pushing back against your exhaust valve/valves because the exhaust is restricting the flow of it. s/c and na engines need a certain amount of back pressure or they can actually lose power, but turbo engines want as little back pressure as possible. You want the exhaust to flow as freely into and out of the turbo as possible causing the turbo to actually spool faster and cooler. You want your turbo as cold as possible also, not hot because the colder the air, the denser it is. Beleive me... i speak the truth.
edit: you can the same exhaust velocity with less back pressure. you want the gasses to flow as freely as possible into and out of the turbo. Why do you think you see such enormous gains with a freer flowing exhaust on a turbo as opposed to an na or s/c engine.
edit: you can the same exhaust velocity with less back pressure. you want the gasses to flow as freely as possible into and out of the turbo. Why do you think you see such enormous gains with a freer flowing exhaust on a turbo as opposed to an na or s/c engine.
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no, that's a misconception, n/a and supercharged engines do not need backpressure, they need exhaust velocity, or rather they need the exhaust gas to reach the proper velocity (I want to say around 250 ft/sec) in a usable range. this is partly why most cars come with small ass piping stock, to keep low end velocity, and in turn low end power, for stop and go, as opposed to a full race exhaust with little to no restriction that peaks at or past the original designated redline.
on turbo engines, you want as little backpressure/restriction after the turbo, but like I said if you had no pressure before the exhaust turbine, how is it supposed to spool? true, you want a manifold that flows well and directs pulses toward the collector and in turn the exhaust wheel, and also why most will prefer a tubular manifold over a log style (pulses crashing into each other before being forced out of the flange mating area), but at the point of entry on the exhaust housing you will build pressure up as some of its waves of reversion travel back increasing pressure in the collector until the exhaust turbine spins enough to start to spool.
you want colder air on the intake charge, that has nothing to do with the exhaust turbine and housing. this is why you run an intercooler, to cool down the charge of air after it's heated during compression by the turbo.
EDIT: after reading some of my books and speaking to a few of my friends, it seems we are inadvertantly discussing two different approaches to manifold design characteristics. yes, the backpressure behind the turbo is what causes it to spook, but at full spool and once the wastegate opens you want as free flow as possible as stated by you, and the vaccuum created by the exhaust turbine will draw enough to maintain boost.
I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything but what you were stating just didn't sound correct to me.
oh and in reponse to your edit, you see such gains because you are opening up the turbo to having a lot more potential to flow exhaust gas than there was previous, and as such can run more efficiently after you reach full boost. on a supercharged engine it still has a huge impact, but not as much because the head is the restriction in this case (and ironically what causes the air to be compressed on positive displacement superchargers with the exception of a whipple/twin screw style which compresses it between the blades).
on turbo engines, you want as little backpressure/restriction after the turbo, but like I said if you had no pressure before the exhaust turbine, how is it supposed to spool? true, you want a manifold that flows well and directs pulses toward the collector and in turn the exhaust wheel, and also why most will prefer a tubular manifold over a log style (pulses crashing into each other before being forced out of the flange mating area), but at the point of entry on the exhaust housing you will build pressure up as some of its waves of reversion travel back increasing pressure in the collector until the exhaust turbine spins enough to start to spool.
you want colder air on the intake charge, that has nothing to do with the exhaust turbine and housing. this is why you run an intercooler, to cool down the charge of air after it's heated during compression by the turbo.
EDIT: after reading some of my books and speaking to a few of my friends, it seems we are inadvertantly discussing two different approaches to manifold design characteristics. yes, the backpressure behind the turbo is what causes it to spook, but at full spool and once the wastegate opens you want as free flow as possible as stated by you, and the vaccuum created by the exhaust turbine will draw enough to maintain boost.
I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything but what you were stating just didn't sound correct to me.
oh and in reponse to your edit, you see such gains because you are opening up the turbo to having a lot more potential to flow exhaust gas than there was previous, and as such can run more efficiently after you reach full boost. on a supercharged engine it still has a huge impact, but not as much because the head is the restriction in this case (and ironically what causes the air to be compressed on positive displacement superchargers with the exception of a whipple/twin screw style which compresses it between the blades).
Last edited by slowion2; Sep 7, 2006 at 06:45 PM.
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From: marion ohio
Originally Posted by slowion2
no, that's a misconception, n/a and supercharged engines do not need backpressure, they need exhaust velocity, or rather they need the exhaust gas to reach the proper velocity (I want to say around 250 ft/sec) in a usable range. this is partly why most cars come with small ass piping stock, to keep low end velocity, and in turn low end power, for stop and go, as opposed to a full race exhaust with little to no restriction that peaks at or past the original designated redline.
on turbo engines, you want as little backpressure/restriction after the turbo, but like I said if you had no pressure before the exhaust turbine, how is it supposed to spool? true, you want a manifold that flows well and directs pulses toward the collector and in turn the exhaust wheel, and also why most will prefer a tubular manifold over a log style (pulses crashing into each other before being forced out of the flange mating area), but at the point of entry on the exhaust housing you will build pressure up as some of its waves of reversion travel back increasing pressure in the collector until the exhaust turbine spins enough to start to spool.
you want colder air on the intake charge, that has nothing to do with the exhaust turbine and housing. this is why you run an intercooler, to cool down the charge of air after it's heated during compression by the turbo.
EDIT: after reading some of my books and speaking to a few of my friends, it seems we are inadvertantly discussing two different approaches to manifold design characteristics. yes, the backpressure behind the turbo is what causes it to spook, but at full spool and once the wastegate opens you want as free flow as possible as stated by you, and the vaccuum created by the exhaust turbine will draw enough to maintain boost.
I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything but what you were stating just didn't sound correct to me.
oh and in reponse to your edit, you see such gains because you are opening up the turbo to having a lot more potential to flow exhaust gas than there was previous, and as such can run more efficiently after you reach full boost. on a supercharged engine it still has a huge impact, but not as much because the head is the restriction in this case (and ironically what causes the air to be compressed on positive displacement superchargers with the exception of a whipple/twin screw style which compresses it between the blades).
on turbo engines, you want as little backpressure/restriction after the turbo, but like I said if you had no pressure before the exhaust turbine, how is it supposed to spool? true, you want a manifold that flows well and directs pulses toward the collector and in turn the exhaust wheel, and also why most will prefer a tubular manifold over a log style (pulses crashing into each other before being forced out of the flange mating area), but at the point of entry on the exhaust housing you will build pressure up as some of its waves of reversion travel back increasing pressure in the collector until the exhaust turbine spins enough to start to spool.
you want colder air on the intake charge, that has nothing to do with the exhaust turbine and housing. this is why you run an intercooler, to cool down the charge of air after it's heated during compression by the turbo.
EDIT: after reading some of my books and speaking to a few of my friends, it seems we are inadvertantly discussing two different approaches to manifold design characteristics. yes, the backpressure behind the turbo is what causes it to spook, but at full spool and once the wastegate opens you want as free flow as possible as stated by you, and the vaccuum created by the exhaust turbine will draw enough to maintain boost.
I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything but what you were stating just didn't sound correct to me.
oh and in reponse to your edit, you see such gains because you are opening up the turbo to having a lot more potential to flow exhaust gas than there was previous, and as such can run more efficiently after you reach full boost. on a supercharged engine it still has a huge impact, but not as much because the head is the restriction in this case (and ironically what causes the air to be compressed on positive displacement superchargers with the exception of a whipple/twin screw style which compresses it between the blades).
this is a real good write up
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Originally Posted by slowion2
no, that's a misconception, n/a and supercharged engines do not need backpressure, they need exhaust velocity, or rather they need the exhaust gas to reach the proper velocity (I want to say around 250 ft/sec) in a usable range. this is partly why most cars come with small ass piping stock, to keep low end velocity, and in turn low end power, for stop and go, as opposed to a full race exhaust with little to no restriction that peaks at or past the original designated redline.
on turbo engines, you want as little backpressure/restriction after the turbo, but like I said if you had no pressure before the exhaust turbine, how is it supposed to spool? true, you want a manifold that flows well and directs pulses toward the collector and in turn the exhaust wheel, and also why most will prefer a tubular manifold over a log style (pulses crashing into each other before being forced out of the flange mating area), but at the point of entry on the exhaust housing you will build pressure up as some of its waves of reversion travel back increasing pressure in the collector until the exhaust turbine spins enough to start to spool.
you want colder air on the intake charge, that has nothing to do with the exhaust turbine and housing. this is why you run an intercooler, to cool down the charge of air after it's heated during compression by the turbo.
EDIT: after reading some of my books and speaking to a few of my friends, it seems we are inadvertantly discussing two different approaches to manifold design characteristics. yes, the backpressure behind the turbo is what causes it to spook, but at full spool and once the wastegate opens you want as free flow as possible as stated by you, and the vaccuum created by the exhaust turbine will draw enough to maintain boost.
I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything but what you were stating just didn't sound correct to me.
oh and in reponse to your edit, you see such gains because you are opening up the turbo to having a lot more potential to flow exhaust gas than there was previous, and as such can run more efficiently after you reach full boost. on a supercharged engine it still has a huge impact, but not as much because the head is the restriction in this case (and ironically what causes the air to be compressed on positive displacement superchargers with the exception of a whipple/twin screw style which compresses it between the blades).
on turbo engines, you want as little backpressure/restriction after the turbo, but like I said if you had no pressure before the exhaust turbine, how is it supposed to spool? true, you want a manifold that flows well and directs pulses toward the collector and in turn the exhaust wheel, and also why most will prefer a tubular manifold over a log style (pulses crashing into each other before being forced out of the flange mating area), but at the point of entry on the exhaust housing you will build pressure up as some of its waves of reversion travel back increasing pressure in the collector until the exhaust turbine spins enough to start to spool.
you want colder air on the intake charge, that has nothing to do with the exhaust turbine and housing. this is why you run an intercooler, to cool down the charge of air after it's heated during compression by the turbo.
EDIT: after reading some of my books and speaking to a few of my friends, it seems we are inadvertantly discussing two different approaches to manifold design characteristics. yes, the backpressure behind the turbo is what causes it to spook, but at full spool and once the wastegate opens you want as free flow as possible as stated by you, and the vaccuum created by the exhaust turbine will draw enough to maintain boost.
I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything but what you were stating just didn't sound correct to me.
oh and in reponse to your edit, you see such gains because you are opening up the turbo to having a lot more potential to flow exhaust gas than there was previous, and as such can run more efficiently after you reach full boost. on a supercharged engine it still has a huge impact, but not as much because the head is the restriction in this case (and ironically what causes the air to be compressed on positive displacement superchargers with the exception of a whipple/twin screw style which compresses it between the blades).
yea i wasnt trying to be a dick either i think we are just misunderstanding eachother
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yeah, it's all good dude, we both seem to be here for the same reason anyway
on the bright side though I think I'm going with a better manifold design than I originally had intended after looking into all this again
on the bright side though I think I'm going with a better manifold design than I originally had intended after looking into all this again
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niiiiiiceee...all the talk about turbos on the cobalt forums has actually pretty much swayed me to get the powerhouse turbo kit http://powerhouse411.com/catalog/ind...products_id=52
over the vortech blower i was originally looking at. lol this thread has changed both of our lives!!
over the vortech blower i was originally looking at. lol this thread has changed both of our lives!!
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that comes with a sweet ass turbo, my buddy just put one on his 1.9L Saturn (lol yeah it's a pretty sick sleeper, was putting down 330whp with the old to4b35). the map I read of it showed it could support over 600hp easy. that's a hell of a deal for that kit too seeing as it's complete.
I was originally looking at a procharger C-2 but the more I look at it the more I want to just go pick up a GT35R or a T3/T04e after I have tuning support and my spare engine built.
I was originally looking at a procharger C-2 but the more I look at it the more I want to just go pick up a GT35R or a T3/T04e after I have tuning support and my spare engine built.
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From: .
Originally Posted by slowion2
that comes with a sweet ass turbo, my buddy just put one on his 1.9L Saturn (lol yeah it's a pretty sick sleeper, was putting down 330whp with the old to4b35). the map I read of it showed it could support over 600hp easy. that's a hell of a deal for that kit too seeing as it's complete.
I was originally looking at a procharger C-2 but the more I look at it the more I want to just go pick up a GT35R or a T3/T04e after I have tuning support and my spare engine built.
I was originally looking at a procharger C-2 but the more I look at it the more I want to just go pick up a GT35R or a T3/T04e after I have tuning support and my spare engine built.
you know what i would recomend? go to the mazdaspeed protege forums and find someone that blew their engine or upgraded their turbo and is selling their turbo. gt28rs are common upgrades that some people will trade in for bigger ones, and the stock one although i dont remember exactly what it is, is totally efficient up to 16 psi which is pretty damn good considering you could probably get it for a few hundred bucks. It also should match the flow of your engine pretty well considering it's the same displacement and has almost the same output without f/i.
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Maybe it was already said because I just kinda skimmed over this thread but the expensive part about turbo cars in the hardware. The turbo itself is cheap but the turbo manifold(s) and piping for the intake and exhaust (unless you buy as a kit that is usually in the $2-3K range) all need to be custom made. Tuning all depending on whether you have the software and knowledge enough to do it yourself or about $200 for a dyno tune. Don't forget supporting mods too. You can't run much boost on any car with stock injectors and stock fuel pump; and you definatly don't want stock exhaust on a boosted car.
Superchargers are interesting because they use the pulleys on the motor to make power. This initially takes power away (more strain on the engine to run) but once you start boosting (obviously) you have more power. 4 cylinder motors usually opt for turbos since they usually start off with little power as it is and boost on turbos is exhaust gas. The only problem then is turbo lag (lack of cylinders and displacement makes for a lack of exhaust gas). Then back to the supercharger, you can get a bigger blower (which makes even more strain on your motor to run thus decreasing power) but the more boost and then a smaller pulley makes even more boost and the power is back (not to mention no turbo lag). This back and forth is why there will alway be a debate between turbos and superchargers.
Superchargers (centrifugal ones at least) are usually cheaper because all you need is different intake piping and the head unit with a mounting bracket. (and the usual injectors and such depending on boost levels.
Twin screw and roots style superchargers (such as the ones on SS cobalts) are far more expensive because they utilize a custom intake manifold because the supercharger basically acts as the upper intake and compresses air directly into the lower intake. The downfall to that is unless you have (like thunderbird super coupes) a roots or twin screw that is mounted to the side of the intake manifolds rather than a part of them you cannot utilize and intercooler and usually have to stick to methanol or some other form of cooling for the air once it gets into the motor.
Whew, that was a lot, hope it made as much sense as I was thinking it up as it does all typed out.
Superchargers are interesting because they use the pulleys on the motor to make power. This initially takes power away (more strain on the engine to run) but once you start boosting (obviously) you have more power. 4 cylinder motors usually opt for turbos since they usually start off with little power as it is and boost on turbos is exhaust gas. The only problem then is turbo lag (lack of cylinders and displacement makes for a lack of exhaust gas). Then back to the supercharger, you can get a bigger blower (which makes even more strain on your motor to run thus decreasing power) but the more boost and then a smaller pulley makes even more boost and the power is back (not to mention no turbo lag). This back and forth is why there will alway be a debate between turbos and superchargers.
Superchargers (centrifugal ones at least) are usually cheaper because all you need is different intake piping and the head unit with a mounting bracket. (and the usual injectors and such depending on boost levels.
Twin screw and roots style superchargers (such as the ones on SS cobalts) are far more expensive because they utilize a custom intake manifold because the supercharger basically acts as the upper intake and compresses air directly into the lower intake. The downfall to that is unless you have (like thunderbird super coupes) a roots or twin screw that is mounted to the side of the intake manifolds rather than a part of them you cannot utilize and intercooler and usually have to stick to methanol or some other form of cooling for the air once it gets into the motor.
Whew, that was a lot, hope it made as much sense as I was thinking it up as it does all typed out.
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From: Orlando, FL
your argument for spool time is true (I really don't care for the term "lag" since you still make more power than you did n/a before spool occurs) but can easily be fixed by matching the right size turbo to your engine, along with a proper a/r for spool placement in the powerband. hands down, a turbocharger will always be more efficient than a supercharger (positive displacement or centrifugal/compressor), but can be a bit more complex for some because of oil feeds/manifold clearance/etc.
I wouldn't say centrifugal superchargers are any cheaper than a turbo. the procharger unit I mentioned above was going to cost at least 1800 dollars for just the unit and nothing else when I first started looking, when I could pick up a properly sized turbo and manifold for under 1000.
I have to say, I see a lot of positive displacement superchargers (roots style) that do not have any aftercooling and they all operate fine. it is good to see setups such as the laminova on the LSJ though, I will defintely say that.
I can't believe how many people I see skimp on management though when it comes down to it, which IMO is one of the most vital parts to a successful system.
8cd - I'll have to look into it, but I know those two are good for what I'm shooting for with that build (it's definitely not going on a stock engine). then again if I could set it up as easily with one of those I'd jump on it IF HP TUNERS GOT THEIR **** TOGETHER LOL
LSC - where in orlando are you at dude? I literally am right between CFT and Titan Motorsports.
I wouldn't say centrifugal superchargers are any cheaper than a turbo. the procharger unit I mentioned above was going to cost at least 1800 dollars for just the unit and nothing else when I first started looking, when I could pick up a properly sized turbo and manifold for under 1000.
I have to say, I see a lot of positive displacement superchargers (roots style) that do not have any aftercooling and they all operate fine. it is good to see setups such as the laminova on the LSJ though, I will defintely say that.
I can't believe how many people I see skimp on management though when it comes down to it, which IMO is one of the most vital parts to a successful system.
8cd - I'll have to look into it, but I know those two are good for what I'm shooting for with that build (it's definitely not going on a stock engine). then again if I could set it up as easily with one of those I'd jump on it IF HP TUNERS GOT THEIR **** TOGETHER LOL
LSC - where in orlando are you at dude? I literally am right between CFT and Titan Motorsports.
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I'm on the east side of town a little south of UCF. Anyway, when it comes to the whole turbo lag thing and superchargers it will always be a preference thing, especially depending upon what youre going to use the car for. For example if you're building a car fo the drag strip then turbo lag is not an issue because you can rev the **** out of it at the tree and take off at full boost. Anyway, I agree 100000000000% that the most vital part of any highly modded car whether it be boosted, n/a, nitrous or any combination of the 3 would be management/tuning and you're absolutly right, everyone seems to skimp out on it.
The sad thing about it is that noone realizes how much tuning can really do for your car. There's a guy who lives in New Jersey named Craig with a stock v6 camaro who has 290lbs of weight reduction (3162 race weight) and some suspension mods, 4.10 gears, and no cat. He runs 13.7 all day long. How? Serious tuning. Tuned a stock 167rwhp motor car to 196rwhp and the only horsepower mod is a getting rid of the cat. Another example a buddy of mine Rusty with a supercharged 94 v6 mustang. Started with 201rwhp just after the install. After a dyno tune had 331rwhp.
As far as positive dispacement superchargers are concerned, I wasn't knocking on their for not having any aftercooling, I was just starting that some people who plan to run really high boost applications don't like them because of this. I think roots and twin screws are the best blowers but thats just me. I too think that turbos will always make more power and make it more effciently but othwers think otherwise and the debate will never end.
The sad thing about it is that noone realizes how much tuning can really do for your car. There's a guy who lives in New Jersey named Craig with a stock v6 camaro who has 290lbs of weight reduction (3162 race weight) and some suspension mods, 4.10 gears, and no cat. He runs 13.7 all day long. How? Serious tuning. Tuned a stock 167rwhp motor car to 196rwhp and the only horsepower mod is a getting rid of the cat. Another example a buddy of mine Rusty with a supercharged 94 v6 mustang. Started with 201rwhp just after the install. After a dyno tune had 331rwhp.
As far as positive dispacement superchargers are concerned, I wasn't knocking on their for not having any aftercooling, I was just starting that some people who plan to run really high boost applications don't like them because of this. I think roots and twin screws are the best blowers but thats just me. I too think that turbos will always make more power and make it more effciently but othwers think otherwise and the debate will never end.