OK,

So I have been talking to alot of various Auto-X'rs, and many have said the same thing about changing the front bar. Beyond the dumbfounded look I get when I tell them how GM set this up as far as swapping it out...

It's been recommended to me that I might want to think about a) installing a softer bar or b) completely removing the current one.

What's the base model's front bar size? I was told that might help it in the corners, as the car won't toss the weight as quick and help control the wieght transfer.

Maybe I'm getting the terms wrong, but the general gist was that alot of FWD guys do this to help control understeer.

Any thoughts??

 

WOW.... not one Autocrosser here has an opinion??

Shocking.

 

I'd like some opinions as well. Completely removing it sounds tempting, given the fact that I think that's where a lot of my front suspension noise is coming from.

I'd love to hear some more input...

 

a smaller diameter bar ... maybe
totally removing the bar... I think there would be too much roll and end up getting you out of shape in fast left/right transitions

 

Yes... the removal thing was brought up by a civic driver and agreed that it might unsettle the car with the stock suspension on it. He felt that if it was a coilover kit, it might not be as bad.

alot fo people of various driving types agree that the smaller bar would be a good idea, and some weren't sure which would be better, bigger or smaller.

End result....?

I'm getting the Koni set of shocks/struts and then see what the car wants to do. THEN, I can decide what to do next. The Koni's won't STOP the roll, but the will slow the RATE of the roll and help load transfer.

found out that sway bar end-links and their bushings are open in Stock classes, so I'm going to upgrade those here soon as well. Need to budget myself...lol

 

You going with the BWoody ones? Wes bought me those for my b-day, I'll let you know what I think of em once they're on.

 

Well, since I JUST found out about this, I'm only now starting to do research on it.

I AM interested to see/hear what the Bwoody's are like.

 

To my knowledge, the BWoody ones are the only ones out right now.

 

Why not try pulling one of the end links off and driving it, that was you can know for sure what will happen. I have thought about this myself awhile ago and it would probably eleminate alot or all of the understeer and help the car rotate easier. On Sunday I had the front tires up to maybe 46 and the rears were about 27 or so, it helped but I think I could have gone even lower in the rear and that would have helped more.

I am also thinking about pulling the endlinks in the winter.

 

I think the Koni's are a great choice, i had the adjustables in my 944 and loved them, I rarely adjusted them...I got to the point were i just left them in the middle setting!
To me a coilover kit is a bit extreme (I know its been the craze for a while), what do I know, I'm old school!
Suspension set-up has never been my forte', I set up my tires and drive what I got.... I have always just adapted the car... i know I could probably do better if I worked on suspension set up! For me, when I race, set up is just something I don't want to deal with(I am not downing doing this). Keep us updated and let us know what you discover

great idea for testing the sway bar removal

I am fascinated at the tire pressure rates you are running... does the car rotate that much better????
If so, next event I'll bump my rears down to 30psi for the first few sessions. On second thought maybe I should try it in a parking lot and see what she does... so I can compensate

 

I've been doing ALOT of talking to some knowledgeable guys in my region and I get variying responses.

In the end, the guy I'm buying the koni's off of, said that I should be doing the Koni's and wait to see what the car does after that. THEN decide on a sway bar. He actually said I should get an LSD 1st, but not in the cards now.

 

The event I was at was in a very dusty lot and I was grasping for an improvement for my last run, so I took some air out of the front and a bunch out of the rear. As I started off the front tires didn't spin as much but it was going through the slalom that it felt better and then around the sweeping left hander it felt like I could go around it faster then previous attemps. So it actually worked I went from 34.954 to a 34.632 which was pretty close to what I needed to get 100points in the overall but instead I got 98.something. ohwell five more events to go.

 

Well, I decided after many many discussions with various drivers and vendors that I should wait to do anything with the bar, especially since it's not an easy job, until after I get the new dampers and see what the car does.

Thanks for the input everyone

 

Looks like you've made up your mind already but I need to post my .02 anyway.

I guess my first question would be in the class you're going to be running in would you be able to use a rear swaybar? If so then you NEED to do that before you even think about removing the front bar.

I also need to warn you about just undoing one of the end links on the sway bar. I'm not familiar with the setup on the cobalt just yet but I know on my old GTI if I unhooked it, and cornered hard, it would press against the drive shaft and machine itself. Not a good idea. Remember, the side you are disconnecting will move with the connected side.

As far as putting on a smaller diameter bar...meh. The car is pretty well balanced in my opinion. Yes it understeers but most cars built these days do. The SS isn't nearly as bad as many others I've driven and if you learn to handle it well, there shouldn't be a need for a downgrade.

Once you get the Koni's in, what I suggest you do is run the back at full firm. Those are the "harder" ones to adjust so start from there and make the front ones full soft. That should balance out your understeer issue a bit. If you find yourself oversteering too much, stiffen up the fronts a 1/4 turn at a time until you dial it in. Also remember tire preasure has a lot to do with the handling characteristics too. If the car understeers, maybe add a bit more air in the rear or take off a little in the front.

When auto-xing I'm not really into competing with the cars in my class. I tend to pick a car that I think I'm competitive with, whether it's in my class or not, and aim their time. In the '01 GTI I had I always aimed for my buddies 75 hp rabbit. I knew that car and his skill and knew it was a good competition. That's how I built my car, not to stay in stock class or sts or stx, but to have a good time and to hone in on my skills. To that point, don't be so worried about classes and get the car balanced right i.e. rear sway bar and maybe a some more rear bracing. There are two ways of curing understeer, loosening up the front or stiffening the rear.

Have fun!

 

Hey, thanks for the tips.

I plan on staying in Stock class. So the rear bar is out. I Would NEVER disconnect one side of the sway bar... both left and right would be should I choose to.

I'm not sure there would be an isse as much with the SS as a GTI as the sway bar on the SS is above the subframe, and IIRC, the GTI is more like "normal" cars in that the bar is below where everybody can get to them.


I'll keep the shock tuning you suggested in mind as well.

Thanks

 

agreed 2x... car is pretty well balanced.... the Koni's should be a good addition..... have fun

 

Actuall the GTI's sway bar is above the subframe and wraps around to the control arms, which is where the problem was.

If stock class is the way you're going, the tuning of the Koni's and the tire preasure are both equally important. Keep an eye on those and learn how to modulate the throttle, that will help with exiting a turn without plowing.

 

There is nothing wrong with dissconnecting one side of the sway bar, why not just play with your tire pressures? take a bunch out of the rear and add a couple pounds to the front.

 

Oh... well then I learned something today. Just doesn't sound like something you'd want to do. Kinda like algebra.. what you do to one side,you do to the other....


I've toyed with the PSIs a bit over the past few weeks. Still much more to be done.

 

id think removing the front sway bar would make u feel like ur getting tossed from ur car in a corner due to a lot of body roll

 

no that would be sitting on a milk crate while not wearing a seatbelt

 

Actually for understeer, you want to do completely the oposite with tire preasure.

And yes, I think there is something wrong with unhooking one side of the bar.

 

ok well pump your tires higher in the back(snap oversteer) either way you do it your going to get the same end result. Again there is nothing wrong with removing one end link from your front sway bar I suggest trying this to see what the car might handle like with out the sway bar. I'm a mechanic we do this sometimes to isolate noises