Port and Direct Injection Test Setup For Partially Premixed Combustion
So I have been asking a few questions on this forum these last few days and it seems a few people at-least are interested in the setup I'm building; So here it is.
I made an imgur album instead of directly placing them in this post because I was fairly liberal with my picture taking. Album: PPC - Imgur You can see from the pictures that I have a lot of things I still have to setup before the engine will be able to run. And even once that's happened I still have to instrument the engine for data acquisition with thermocouples, wide range A/F sensors... etc and hopefully cylinder pressure. Thanks for all your help so far I'll no doubt have some specific (and hopefully not stupid) questions for you soon. |
dibs on the engine when it's done. :)
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Nice azz work area.
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Subd
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This is awesome. so are you using DI and Port Injection or have you sealed the DI off?
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Originally Posted by leemanfor
(Post 7068403)
This is awesome. so are you using DI and Port Injection or have you sealed the DI off?
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I cant wait for someone to come in here and nag on you for a band aid solution, I mean , single and multi port injection only been around for EVER. LOL good luck with this and I am jelly of the engine stand setup you got going , some real potential for hard core R&D here. Curious what secondary fuel you are talking about, would you need 2 tanks then one in the trunk for the higher octane and use your big tank for cruising .. Sounds interesting!
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Originally Posted by PrincessTurbo
(Post 7068421)
I cant wait for someone to come in here and nag on you for a band aid solution, I mean , single and multi port injection only been around for EVER. LOL good luck with this and I am jelly of the engine stand setup you got going , some real potential for hard core R&D here. Curious what secondary fuel you are talking about, would you need 2 tanks then one in the trunk for the higher octane and use your big tank for cruising .. Sounds interesting!
My research is fairly open ended right now and I won't be able to pick what I want to do until I get the engine and control software working. Then it will be a matter of figuring out what I am capable of doing with my setup and from that narrowing my research topic. |
You're potentially solving two problems
1) With the current fueling setup on this engine you can run out of gas before air. Nobody makes bigger injectors so various bandaids have been devised with a 5th injector added to the intake to get more fuel. Obviously it's difficult to achieve even fueling across all 4 cylinders with such a setup. Your multiport solution could be a fix. 2) DI engines have no fuel running across the back of the intake valves. No fuel on the valves makes then hotter. Means no detergent washing them. Add that to the LNF's horrible PCV design and you get major amounts of oil coked onto the back of the intake valves causing loss of compression, misfire, and pulsing in the intake. Your multiport solution could be a help perhaps. |
I wouldn't think it would take very big injectors to make it a great option. Adding 10-25% more fuel on top of the stock setup would be huge.
I wonder how this will work with the way direct injection atomizes the fuel though. Would it get the benefits of both or just wash out the atomization and be exactly like port fuel injection? |
I think a lot of the atomization of the DI comes from the fact that its at an insanely high pressure compared to port fueling. So that should remain unchanged. This could be a game changer for e85 guys.
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I don't think he's doing any of this for commercial use. I think it's for a Master's thesis. Nonetheless, if he finds positive results and shares some of his findings they surely could be applied by someone with the right ability.
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Originally Posted by armcclure
(Post 7068510)
I think a lot of the atomization of the DI comes from the fact that its at an insanely high pressure compared to port fueling. So that should remain unchanged. This could be a game changer for e85 guys.
Guess this guy will find out. Wonder how long it would take on this setup to clean the valves. Also, OP, if you were the coolest guy on Earth you would work on a port injection type setup that was designed to mist our valves to clean them. Just for cleaning purposing, not for fueling. I would love to have a sprayer setup that cleaned the valves when hooked up and then taken off when they look good. |
Originally Posted by Sox-Fan
(Post 7068454)
You're potentially solving two problems
1) With the current fueling setup on this engine you can run out of gas before air. Nobody makes bigger injectors so various bandaids have been devised with a 5th injector added to the intake to get more fuel. Obviously it's difficult to achieve even fueling across all 4 cylinders with such a setup. Your multiport solution could be a fix. 2) DI engines have no fuel running across the back of the intake valves. No fuel on the valves makes then hotter. Means no detergent washing them. Add that to the LNF's horrible PCV design and you get major amounts of oil coked onto the back of the intake valves causing loss of compression, misfire, and pulsing in the intake. Your multiport solution could be a help perhaps. Also I'm not sure about your forum rules but if I have further questions should I post them here or start a new thread? Off the top of my head I'm confused about the radiator and surge tank piping. Mainly I don't know what goes where. Should I ask those questions with pictures here or make a new thread? Whats the forum etiquette on that? |
Originally Posted by Sox-Fan
(Post 7068513)
I don't think he's doing any of this for commercial use. I think it's for a Master's thesis. Nonetheless, if he finds positive results and shares some of his findings they surely could be applied by someone with the right ability.
Its awesome to see this kind of research being done and shared |
I can see something like this preventing valve coking, but I'm not at all sure it can actually clean coked up valves unless it's spraying some serious chemicals. In which case just taking off the intake to add on a rig like this gives you all the access you need to spray the chemical in there and clean the valves by hand.
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Originally Posted by MasterOfApplience
(Post 7068521)
Oh I see, your thinking about the problems with this specific engine. The only reason we picked this engine was because we wanted both direct and port injection, and we knew someone who had success in putting port injectors on this engine and getting the ECU and another engine controller (for the port injectors) to play nicely in his software package. So my research goal isn't focused on righting some drawbacks this engine currently has. Although when I make my data publicly available we can definitely see if it had that effect. However, running at WOT for any period of time in a lab is something that is quite risky and definitely won't be done often, so I can't say how useful my data will be for trying to draw those conclusions.
Also I'm not sure about your forum rules but if I have further questions should I post them here or start a new thread? Off the top of my head I'm confused about the radiator and surge tank piping. Mainly I don't know what goes where. Should I ask those questions with pictures here or make a new thread? Whats the forum etiquette on that? Let's keep this one for discussing the actual tests, outcomes, and applications of the knowledge. |
You guys are too fast for me I can't keep up.
Originally Posted by Sox-Fan
(Post 7068513)
I don't think he's doing any of this for commercial use. I think it's for a Master's thesis. Nonetheless, if he finds positive results and shares some of his findings they surely could be applied by someone with the right ability.
Originally Posted by umrdyldo
(Post 7068519)
I thought that at first, but what happens when you dump non atomized fuel on top of atomized fuel?
Guess this guy will find out. Wonder how long it would take on this setup to clean the valves.
Originally Posted by blackonblack07
(Post 7068522)
Depending on who is funding his masters thesis it could become commercial, although I bet it would be adapted to newer engines.
Its awesome to see this kind of research being done and shared
Originally Posted by Sox-Fan
(Post 7068524)
The other threads that you have about the vacuum lines would work if you want to tack onto that, or a new one would be fine too.
Let's keep this one for discussing the actual tests, outcomes, and applications of the knowledge. |
Originally Posted by umrdyldo
(Post 7068519)
I thought that at first, but what happens when you dump non atomized fuel on top of atomized fuel? |
I got a suggestion for that intercooler. Get a better one and sell that one lol
Oh and what engine did this come out of? The turbo looks different. That the TD04 from a Buick Regal GS? I see it has a bolt on 4" extension so that a couple T-bolt clamp can be mounted. If I remember from my 2011 visit to the car show in Baltimore, the Buick Regal GS had a bolt on charge pipe like that |
Originally Posted by CudaJoe
(Post 7069437)
I got a suggestion for that intercooler. Get a better one and sell that one lol
Oh and what engine did this come out of? The turbo looks different. That the TD04 from a Buick Regal GS? I see it has a bolt on 4" extension so that a couple T-bolt clamp can be mounted. If I remember from my 2011 visit to the car show in Baltimore, the Buick Regal GS had a bolt on charge pipe like that That is the stock turbo from a 2009 Cobalt SS. Its the same one in all of the service manual pictures. |
Im an idiot, you are correct, I never remembered seeing that before. K04 turbo. I was seeing if you guys were working with the newer LNF engine that has the mitsu turbo.
And about the intercooler. I understand the desire to keep it as factory as possible. If you do alittle digging around here you will find that the stock intercooler is prone to cracking under higher boost. Even recorded incidents of factory setting on a factory intercooler breaking. Thats the only reason I brought it up. Plastic intercoolers are no beuno. P.S. - This is really awesome what your doing. This does solve alot of fueling issues for those who want to make alot of power with big turbos. |
Supercharged LNF. lol epic
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Originally Posted by leemanfor
(Post 7069647)
Supercharged LNF. lol epic
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why not just use a saab turbo intake, fuel rail, and meth controller to controll injectors?
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