Gm Stage 3 12.2-12.5 A/f Wot???
01-18-2008, 01:58 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: 05-31-07
Location: SoCal, Lancaster
Posts: 4,339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gm Stage 3 12.2-12.5 A/f Wot???
PLEASE SOME INPUT FROM THE GUYS WHO KNOW HOW TO TUNE, Ive been having alot of issues with canned tunes. recently i installed my wideband and i can actually see whats going on now and ive realized that my first tune by ZZP was running crazy lean A/F #s at idle sometimes going off the scale lean something like 17.0+ for moments and at WOT it was like 12.2-12.6 all the way through the rpms. and someone on here said that you start losing power over 12.5 and other members have said that with those kind of #s your looking for trouble with combustion temps getting to high and having piston failure and i brought her out every sat night and rode her hard and never had any problems, however i decided to get a new tune, so since i already played around with some spray i figured why not get the GM STAGE 3 ECM so i did and would'nt you know the A/F #s are the same as before... so know im begining to wonder if it has something to do with this ebay cai that may be possibly throwing off the mass airflow sensor the intake is made of aluminum and is one piece and the maf is really close to stock position i am running a AEM dry filter so im not sure what it is but i know guys are saying the GM tunes are pig rich wich mine is not... PLEASE HELP!!! 
Last edited by hungryhip-ccp; 01-18-2008 at 02:26 AM.
01-18-2008, 02:19 AM
#2
wow thats a long sentance.
what wideband do you have??? were is the wideband o2 sensor located??? is the wideband properly calibrated??? reason i ask all that is because if you are actualy running 12.2-12.6 and beating the hell out of it, you likley would have popped a piston by now. and does the motor burble when it hits 17:1 at idle??? if not, id bet you have a wideband problem.
what wideband do you have??? were is the wideband o2 sensor located??? is the wideband properly calibrated??? reason i ask all that is because if you are actualy running 12.2-12.6 and beating the hell out of it, you likley would have popped a piston by now. and does the motor burble when it hits 17:1 at idle??? if not, id bet you have a wideband problem.
01-18-2008, 02:22 AM
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: 05-31-07
Location: SoCal, Lancaster
Posts: 4,339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wow thats a long sentance.
what wideband do you have??? were is the wideband o2 sensor located??? is the wideband properly calibrated??? reason i ask all that is because if you are actualy running 12.2-12.6 and beating the hell out of it, you likley would have popped a piston by now. and does the motor burble when it hits 17:1 at idle??? if not, id bet you have a wideband problem.
what wideband do you have??? were is the wideband o2 sensor located??? is the wideband properly calibrated??? reason i ask all that is because if you are actualy running 12.2-12.6 and beating the hell out of it, you likley would have popped a piston by now. and does the motor burble when it hits 17:1 at idle??? if not, id bet you have a wideband problem.
01-18-2008, 12:19 PM
#5
Senior Member
I know someone who has been running the 12.6-12.8 AFR for quite some time now, without meth, he beats on it and has had zero problems. He is however thinking of getting a pyrometer just for ***** and giggles.
just a question, do you have the stock O2 sensor in the collector still? (not sure what the zzp shorty looks like?) or did you not hook that up and just replaced it with the wideband? Curious. Myself, I installed my wideband in the downpipe before the cat. Works very well.
just a question, do you have the stock O2 sensor in the collector still? (not sure what the zzp shorty looks like?) or did you not hook that up and just replaced it with the wideband? Curious. Myself, I installed my wideband in the downpipe before the cat. Works very well.
01-18-2008, 12:47 PM
#6
Rent me! per hour
Join Date: 03-22-07
Location: Still fixing others mistakes.
Posts: 24,185
Likes: 0
Received 20 Likes
on
14 Posts
do you have a way of logging the viewing fuel trims? ltft and stft? this is a way of seeing if your maf scaling is off.
it doesn't suprise me that gm did this with the stage 3. hence the 100 octane tune.
p.s. that was me that said the power after 12.5 goes down. i have done this on my car, and another power hungry members car
it doesn't suprise me that gm did this with the stage 3. hence the 100 octane tune.
p.s. that was me that said the power after 12.5 goes down. i have done this on my car, and another power hungry members car
Last edited by Area47; 01-18-2008 at 12:47 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
01-18-2008, 12:52 PM
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: 09-14-05
Location: Phx, AZ
Posts: 6,697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
from what I understand lean during idle, because of the low rpm won't do anything bad and isn't an issue. You want to be more rich as you go up in range to provide enough fuel so you don't starve the engine.
01-18-2008, 01:41 PM
#8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: 05-31-07
Location: SoCal, Lancaster
Posts: 4,339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
do you have a way of logging the viewing fuel trims? ltft and stft? this is a way of seeing if your maf scaling is off.
it doesn't suprise me that gm did this with the stage 3. hence the 100 octane tune.
p.s. that was me that said the power after 12.5 goes down. i have done this on my car, and another power hungry members car
it doesn't suprise me that gm did this with the stage 3. hence the 100 octane tune.
p.s. that was me that said the power after 12.5 goes down. i have done this on my car, and another power hungry members car
yeah i knew it was you that said that it was in the "got tuned friday" thread but i didnt want to throw your name out there some people on this site get really upset over the dumbest things
so know that we know i can see ltft and stft what do i look for i really trust what you say because everytime i see a post from you, you really seem to make a lot of sense and you usaully always know what your talking about not just talking out your ass like some people on this site
01-18-2008, 01:49 PM
#9
Rent me! per hour
Join Date: 03-22-07
Location: Still fixing others mistakes.
Posts: 24,185
Likes: 0
Received 20 Likes
on
14 Posts
when i talk out my ass. it's usually a fart.
if the trims are wacky. you will see them in +13 or -13. 18 in either direction will trigger a 171 lean code, or 172 rich code. you should be able to reset your fuel trims, or force them into a learning mode with the scanner. i know you can do this in hpt. i'll have to check my logs from last weekend to see what mine did. i believe they were in the negative range, right above triggering a code. remember if you maf scaling is off. weather changes will **** with it
if the trims are wacky. you will see them in +13 or -13. 18 in either direction will trigger a 171 lean code, or 172 rich code. you should be able to reset your fuel trims, or force them into a learning mode with the scanner. i know you can do this in hpt. i'll have to check my logs from last weekend to see what mine did. i believe they were in the negative range, right above triggering a code. remember if you maf scaling is off. weather changes will **** with it
01-18-2008, 03:25 PM
#10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: 05-31-07
Location: SoCal, Lancaster
Posts: 4,339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
when i talk out my ass. it's usually a fart.
if the trims are wacky. you will see them in +13 or -13. 18 in either direction will trigger a 171 lean code, or 172 rich code. you should be able to reset your fuel trims, or force them into a learning mode with the scanner. i know you can do this in hpt. i'll have to check my logs from last weekend to see what mine did. i believe they were in the negative range, right above triggering a code. remember if you maf scaling is off. weather changes will **** with it
if the trims are wacky. you will see them in +13 or -13. 18 in either direction will trigger a 171 lean code, or 172 rich code. you should be able to reset your fuel trims, or force them into a learning mode with the scanner. i know you can do this in hpt. i'll have to check my logs from last weekend to see what mine did. i believe they were in the negative range, right above triggering a code. remember if you maf scaling is off. weather changes will **** with it
01-18-2008, 04:23 PM
#12
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: 05-31-07
Location: SoCal, Lancaster
Posts: 4,339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yeah but i mean come on i cant belive after all the props i gave you and you come up with that... that must of been one of those what do you call it "farts"
im a mechanic dude, i dont belive in mickey mouse/temporary fixes...
not trying to be a dick at all dont take it that way... and not trying to say i know everything i still appreciate your help
im a mechanic dude, i dont belive in mickey mouse/temporary fixes...
not trying to be a dick at all dont take it that way... and not trying to say i know everything i still appreciate your help
01-18-2008, 04:59 PM
#14
Senior Member
wow, them are some seriously botched together posts.
none the less, you need to QUIT worrying about your idle AFR's the car will ossilate around on the scale, its designed to do this, because after all we only have a narrow band sensor to work with on the car, but after all your a mechanic so you know this, rite?
your wideband readings only come into play when the car goes WOT, another thing is log your IDCs or at least your injector pulse width, that'll tell you if your running out of injector thus limiting your possible AFRs.
also, new wideband or not, you could be working with a partially dead sensor on your wideband.
its common knowledge that when the AEM sensors start to go bad they get leaner and leaner until your off the scale at all times.
you need to log your MAF freq, all your injector trims, commanded AFR, and #1-02sensor voltage.
with this information we can diagnose your issue.
none the less, you need to QUIT worrying about your idle AFR's the car will ossilate around on the scale, its designed to do this, because after all we only have a narrow band sensor to work with on the car, but after all your a mechanic so you know this, rite?
your wideband readings only come into play when the car goes WOT, another thing is log your IDCs or at least your injector pulse width, that'll tell you if your running out of injector thus limiting your possible AFRs.
also, new wideband or not, you could be working with a partially dead sensor on your wideband.
its common knowledge that when the AEM sensors start to go bad they get leaner and leaner until your off the scale at all times.
you need to log your MAF freq, all your injector trims, commanded AFR, and #1-02sensor voltage.
with this information we can diagnose your issue.
01-18-2008, 05:02 PM
#15
Rent me! per hour
Join Date: 03-22-07
Location: Still fixing others mistakes.
Posts: 24,185
Likes: 0
Received 20 Likes
on
14 Posts
wow, them are some seriously botched together posts.
none the less, you need to QUIT worrying about your idle AFR's the car will ossilate around on the scale, its designed to do this, because after all we only have a narrow band sensor to work with on the car, but after all your a mechanic so you know this, rite?
your wideband readings only come into play when the car goes WOT, another thing is log your IDCs or at least your injector pulse width, that'll tell you if your running out of injector thus limiting your possible AFRs.
also, new wideband or not, you could be working with a partially dead sensor on your wideband.
its common knowledge that when the AEM sensors start to go bad they get leaner and leaner until your off the scale at all times.
you need to log your MAF freq, all your injector trims, commanded AFR, and #1-02sensor voltage.
with this information we can diagnose your issue.
none the less, you need to QUIT worrying about your idle AFR's the car will ossilate around on the scale, its designed to do this, because after all we only have a narrow band sensor to work with on the car, but after all your a mechanic so you know this, rite?
your wideband readings only come into play when the car goes WOT, another thing is log your IDCs or at least your injector pulse width, that'll tell you if your running out of injector thus limiting your possible AFRs.
also, new wideband or not, you could be working with a partially dead sensor on your wideband.
its common knowledge that when the AEM sensors start to go bad they get leaner and leaner until your off the scale at all times.
you need to log your MAF freq, all your injector trims, commanded AFR, and #1-02sensor voltage.
with this information we can diagnose your issue.
stage 3 pcm. can't log idc. iat 2. msec. can't do ****. hence my vague answers about none hpt crap
01-18-2008, 05:03 PM
#16
Senior Member
he said he has a scan tool, my wondrous snap on unit logs all that ****!
boo yaaaaa smallz!
on a side not, bryan we gonna resurve a room in chi-town at the same place as all the "others"
01-18-2008, 05:08 PM
#18
Senior Member
01-18-2008, 06:05 PM
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: 11-04-07
Location: PA
Posts: 972
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what the hell are egts
if i run a GM stage 3 I guess i'll be fine cause it has an entire different ecu with a GM tune
if i run a GM stage 3 I guess i'll be fine cause it has an entire different ecu with a GM tune
Last edited by rockkrawler628; 01-18-2008 at 06:05 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
01-18-2008, 06:15 PM
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: 01-24-06
Location: Warranty Chevrolet, Maryland
Posts: 765
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I installed my wideband and i can actually see whats going on now and ive realized that my first tune by ZZP was running crazy lean A/F #s at idle sometimes going off the scale lean something like 17.0+ for moments and at WOT it was like 12.2-12.6 all the way through the rpms.
01-18-2008, 06:18 PM
#24
Senior Member
That actually sounds normal to me. The idling very lean is something Subaru has been doing for awhile. They actually, last I knew, with a wide band O2 where idling at 20something to 1. Now if its spontaiously spiking to 17/1 AFR you have a problem. The WOT AFR sounds around about right too. Mid 12/1 is pretty standard on all performance gasoline engines I know of for WOT. Don't want #4 piston to be a paper weight.
mid 12s with 15psi+ is getting pretty close to the edge IMO.
especially for a GM tune, which are usually very rich.