Why aren't the SS' running high 13's 200+ whp stock?
New Member
Joined: 04-17-06
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
From: NY
Heat shield ?
Does anybody have a problom with there heat shield , I cant get it to stop f#$'ing making noise . I go to dealer and they bend it back . It's good for about a day . Anything I can do ? Cobalt SS/sc 2.0 ?
Banned
Joined: 03-14-06
Posts: 3,660
Likes: 1
From: soon to banned as I am from MANITOBA?
gearing is an issue for drag but car is not for drag admittingly.
Name 5....LOL
You all walked right into this one, You helped me prove my point. You all worry about peak power, what will part a or b dyno at peak. When you are only spending less than 1 second of 13 sec run above 5800 rpm, what good will a few HP at peak make? Give me 20 HP in the 3500-5500 band and wathc it give you more bang for the buck!
My peak HP never changed much in my modding but mid range TQ AND HP increased dramatically. In other words, i added allot of useable power, not peak power.
My peak HP never changed much in my modding but mid range TQ AND HP increased dramatically. In other words, i added allot of useable power, not peak power.
Ok name 4 more that is a mid 13. 13.6 is pushing it by the way. that could be a 13.69...LOL
Banned
Joined: 06-11-07
Posts: 5,417
Likes: 0
From: Az
I was just wondering that why aren't the Cobalt SS' running high 13's when some of them are putting down 200-230 whp stock + intake? My GTP with just a smaller pulley (3.4 vs 3.8 stock) short ram intake, reprogrammed pcm, and ubend delete was running high 13's. I never had it dynoed but from other people on the forums I could estimate about 220-230 whp and that was heavier car at 3400+lbs.
If I do a GM Stage 2 + intake on my new cobalt will that possibly get me into the 13's if I can drive it and launch it perfectly??
If I do a GM Stage 2 + intake on my new cobalt will that possibly get me into the 13's if I can drive it and launch it perfectly??
New Member
Joined: 03-17-06
Posts: 91
Likes: 2
From: Northwest
Well said BC, but you know the old adage
Yeah, it is. Its the work done. Hp is work done over time. In other words: torque measured over time.
An accelerating car follows its torque curve. Where the torque peaks is where it changes velocity at the greatest rate, which is acceleration.
Someone who was racing. Torque tells you how much power is being put down at that instant. HP tells you how well the engine can put down power over a period of time. Torque can be measured in one revolution. Its how much work is done at that moment. HP has to be measured overtime, because it is describing how much work is being done.
In very simplistic terms: Torque accelerates you to a speed, HP overcomes everything that is trying to prevent you from maintaining that speed.
Its very difficult to explain past the point that there isnt much difference between the two. If you dyno your car, and then sit in it an feel when the car is accelerating hardest, you will find that the hardest acceleration happens at the torque peak, not the HP peak.
BC
An accelerating car follows its torque curve. Where the torque peaks is where it changes velocity at the greatest rate, which is acceleration.
Someone who was racing. Torque tells you how much power is being put down at that instant. HP tells you how well the engine can put down power over a period of time. Torque can be measured in one revolution. Its how much work is done at that moment. HP has to be measured overtime, because it is describing how much work is being done.
In very simplistic terms: Torque accelerates you to a speed, HP overcomes everything that is trying to prevent you from maintaining that speed.
Its very difficult to explain past the point that there isnt much difference between the two. If you dyno your car, and then sit in it an feel when the car is accelerating hardest, you will find that the hardest acceleration happens at the torque peak, not the HP peak.
BC
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and CoBOT appears to be very, very dangerous.
Doc
Senior Member
Joined: 12-02-06
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
From: Hopatcong
along with everyone else i say the biggest problem is traction and gearing
how does it happen tho? i mean i know what happens but how?
gear is to short causing to rev to fast, causing hop?
or is it to much power to short gear causing hop?
or is it just both?
how does it happen tho? i mean i know what happens but how?
gear is to short causing to rev to fast, causing hop?
or is it to much power to short gear causing hop?
or is it just both?
New Member
Joined: 03-17-07
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
From: Anderson, IN
wheel hop has nothing to do with track times. Well... it inadvertantly does, because you will let up on the throttle because of wheel hop. However, the lack of traction, and poorly designed motor mounts, and cushy control arm bushings do cause wheel hop.
Gearing on these cars kills us.... I'll be the first to admit it. Even at redline, shifting to second gear, you go well below the powerband, and have to play catch-up in second. If first gear was just a bit taller, we would be pulling low 14's stock.
Senior Member
Joined: 07-28-06
Posts: 1,367
Likes: 1
From: Michigan
ever notice how fast are traps our compared to other cars? Astock car should trap 98-100MPH and stage 2 is good for 102-104MPH. SRT4s are running mid to low 13s with those trap speeds. Trap is the real indicator of how much HP a car has at the track, ET tells you how good of a driver you are.
Senior Member
Joined: 07-11-06
Posts: 3,462
Likes: 0
From: Hubert NC
wheel hop has nothing to do with track times. Well... it inadvertantly does, because you will let up on the throttle because of wheel hop. However, the lack of traction, and poorly designed motor mounts, and cushy control arm bushings do cause wheel hop.
Gearing on these cars kills us.... I'll be the first to admit it. Even at redline, shifting to second gear, you go well below the powerband, and have to play catch-up in second. If first gear was just a bit taller, we would be pulling low 14's stock.
Gearing on these cars kills us.... I'll be the first to admit it. Even at redline, shifting to second gear, you go well below the powerband, and have to play catch-up in second. If first gear was just a bit taller, we would be pulling low 14's stock.
Banned
Joined: 03-14-06
Posts: 3,660
Likes: 1
From: soon to banned as I am from MANITOBA?
LOL I get great times for what I have and those with wheel hop devices dont beat me mod for mod. traction is traction. wheel hop = loss of traction. if you take away the wheel hopping your still loosing traction. what are the typical 60's with a traction aid. I have BWoody's and after experimenting I could not get a better lauch or 60'. wheel hop was gone though. to improve traction you need one or two things better wider tires or ....RWD or AWD. the latter is not going to happen
Senior Member
Joined: 06-28-06
Posts: 12,577
Likes: 2
From: Canada
Yeah, it is. Its the work done. Hp is work done over time. In other words: torque measured over time.
An accelerating car follows its torque curve. Where the torque peaks is where it changes velocity at the greatest rate, which is acceleration.
Someone who was racing. Torque tells you how much power is being put down at that instant. HP tells you how well the engine can put down power over a period of time. Torque can be measured in one revolution. Its how much work is done at that moment. HP has to be measured overtime, because it is describing how much work is being done.
In very simplistic terms: Torque accelerates you to a speed, HP overcomes everything that is trying to prevent you from maintaining that speed.
Its very difficult to explain past the point that there isnt much difference between the two. If you dyno your car, and then sit in it an feel when the car is accelerating hardest, you will find that the hardest acceleration happens at the torque peak, not the HP peak.
BC
An accelerating car follows its torque curve. Where the torque peaks is where it changes velocity at the greatest rate, which is acceleration.
Someone who was racing. Torque tells you how much power is being put down at that instant. HP tells you how well the engine can put down power over a period of time. Torque can be measured in one revolution. Its how much work is done at that moment. HP has to be measured overtime, because it is describing how much work is being done.
In very simplistic terms: Torque accelerates you to a speed, HP overcomes everything that is trying to prevent you from maintaining that speed.
Its very difficult to explain past the point that there isnt much difference between the two. If you dyno your car, and then sit in it an feel when the car is accelerating hardest, you will find that the hardest acceleration happens at the torque peak, not the HP peak.
BC
+rep
done a little post secondary physics? or just someone who wasnt educated at the "dom toretto" school of horsepower?
Banned
Joined: 03-14-06
Posts: 3,660
Likes: 1
From: soon to banned as I am from MANITOBA?
Senior Member
Joined: 05-02-07
Posts: 1,061
Likes: 0
From: San Jose, CA
Banned
Joined: 03-14-06
Posts: 3,660
Likes: 1
From: soon to banned as I am from MANITOBA?
I have yet to read your last PM will tonight.
Senior Member
Joined: 05-02-07
Posts: 1,061
Likes: 0
From: San Jose, CA
Senior Member
Joined: 07-11-06
Posts: 3,462
Likes: 0
From: Hubert NC
LOL I get great times for what I have and those with wheel hop devices dont beat me mod for mod. traction is traction. wheel hop = loss of traction. if you take away the wheel hopping your still loosing traction. what are the typical 60's with a traction aid. I have BWoody's and after experimenting I could not get a better lauch or 60'. wheel hop was gone though. to improve traction you need one or two things better wider tires or ....RWD or AWD. the latter is not going to happen
Senior Member
Joined: 05-02-07
Posts: 1,061
Likes: 0
From: San Jose, CA
See this is where you torque>horespower guys **** it all up.
Why in the hell are you shifting at 6200rpms????
Horsepower>torque. If torque is better/more important/whatever why doesn't everyone shift at peak torque and keep rpms around the peak torque???
Everyone in the world shifts(except a select fee dee dee dee folk) close to peak horsepower and wants to keep their car as close to peak horsepower as possible. I wonder why that is...
Why in the hell are you shifting at 6200rpms????
Horsepower>torque. If torque is better/more important/whatever why doesn't everyone shift at peak torque and keep rpms around the peak torque???
Everyone in the world shifts(except a select fee dee dee dee folk) close to peak horsepower and wants to keep their car as close to peak horsepower as possible. I wonder why that is...
... and just for the record, the people I know on this sight who have screamin times mostly short shift.
Senior Member
Joined: 09-26-06
Posts: 9,753
Likes: 0
From: Marlton, NJ
ever notice how fast are traps our compared to other cars? Astock car should trap 98-100MPH and stage 2 is good for 102-104MPH. SRT4s are running mid to low 13s with those trap speeds. Trap is the real indicator of how much HP a car has at the track, ET tells you how good of a driver you are.
Our cars are very well capable of high 13's with ONLY wheel hop and traction mods. Trap speeds is the tell all indicator of what your vehicle is capable in the quarter mile. That's why, when you see some of the guys that are hitting 13.6, 13.5, and 13.4's and they are trapping at approx 107-108mph, that is respectably worthy of a 12.7-12.9 quarter mile run with the right launch, and traction adjustments.
Senior Member
Joined: 03-13-06
Posts: 1,004
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
To me it looks like peak torque is around 4500-5000rpm in those graphs, i'd think that shifting at redline still puts you below 4000 rpm from 1st to 2nd but i'd have to check have to check. I know at least with stock and base stage 2 it seemed to be beneficially to ride out at the highest HP or revs, just to get into the next gear at a higher torque band.
Senior Member
Joined: 09-26-06
Posts: 9,753
Likes: 0
From: Marlton, NJ
Then the trap speeds will be higher and the quarter times should drop. There are numerous people hitting the quarter at 13.5 trapping 107-108mph. If you look at cars that are running the quarter in high 12's, you'll notice a good majority are trapping that same mph. How can I be wrong? You CAN NOT base a cars power by how what times it's hitting in the quarter, it's more about the mph you're hitting.
traction is the worst problem... seriously... there are other cars with the same HP and such that run better times.. i mean hell a stock SRT 4 runs about what 240 hp..? and can run mid to high 13s stock? even if thats actually WHP... some ss/sc are running about 230 WHP with just an intake and such but cut 2.2 + 60's and still run mid 14's at 99 MPH.
hell some people have been able to cut low 14s stock on an ss/sc
1.)madeinUSA,14.06@99.34 w/2.18 60'
2.)Tofu,14.12@97.29 w/2.00 60'
3.)STG2BALT,14.16@99.94 w/2.21 60'
4.)R&C_rallySS,14.24@100.06 w/2.23 60'
hell the 2.2 60' ones could easily be made into 13's with a better 60'
hell some people have been able to cut low 14s stock on an ss/sc
1.)madeinUSA,14.06@99.34 w/2.18 60'
2.)Tofu,14.12@97.29 w/2.00 60'
3.)STG2BALT,14.16@99.94 w/2.21 60'
4.)R&C_rallySS,14.24@100.06 w/2.23 60'
hell the 2.2 60' ones could easily be made into 13's with a better 60'
