Why no hybrid L61/LSJ builds?
01-24-2013, 04:57 PM
#38
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PJ is a genious...absolute wealth of info for us Eco guys. He actually tore apart the L61/lsj combo, and is running a straight LSJ in his daily driven J-body (which is what inspired me to throw one in my J-body lol).
I actually started to building a 2.4 bottom/L61 head, but when I decided to use an LSJ head instead, once I saw the prices for just the head, I figured I could buy an entire LK9 for not much more and swap it in entirely. For me personally I think it worked better than a hybrid considering the more favorable r/s ratio with the 2.0.
Not sure what the availability is for you guys, but for us J-body guys it's as easy as an external CKP and trigger wheel setup. We get lucky and TCE makes a wheel for GM v6 swaps that just happens to work for us. Then of course there is always Megasquirt, from what I gather the newest versions support 6+1, 60-2, etc rings.
I actually started to building a 2.4 bottom/L61 head, but when I decided to use an LSJ head instead, once I saw the prices for just the head, I figured I could buy an entire LK9 for not much more and swap it in entirely. For me personally I think it worked better than a hybrid considering the more favorable r/s ratio with the 2.0.
Originally Posted by Tjolley
Now the PCMs more and wire harness is another story.
Then you just need to figure out the reluctor wheel clocking
Then you just need to figure out the reluctor wheel clocking
01-24-2013, 06:45 PM
#41
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I just text PJ, hopefully he'll chime in here soon.
Here's the trigger wheel PJ and I use to correct the reluctor ring not matching the electronics. This is actually a copy, a few J-body guys have run hybrids so far, and one guy had his machinist make copies of the TCE Motorsports wheel.
It usually takes a little tweaking to get it lined up just right. The original TCE wheel had a keyway in it it to properly time it, but that goes out the window when you use it on other platforms (it's designed for gm v6 swaps).
Not too complicated, set motor to TDC, then align the timing tooth of the trigger wheel with your external CKP. Only small hurtle if it's not dead on, you could be +/- a few degress timing...nothing HPT can't compensate for, just sucks if you ever need to pull the wheel off for whatever reason, you'll need to get it back it on exactly the same.
I know DIYautotune sells a variety of trigger wheels intended for use with Megasquirt, but I think I remember seeing a 60-2 wheel, which if that's the case, any LSJ guys should be able to do like I did and just slap that wheel on and mount a CKP on a bracket next to it.
Now for you 2.2 guys thinking of going with an LSJ head, keep in mind you won't be able to run the LSJ cam sensor....not positive for the LSJ since I'm not overly familiar with the PCMs/fueling, etc, but for me that means losing sequential injection and defaulting to batch fire mode. Not a huge issue for me, as anything over 3800 rpm defaults to batch fire regardless with a J-body pcm, but again, not sure how that effects you guys.
I thought about trying to run the LSJ cam sensor when I megasquirt, but I'm not sure if I'll have the physical room considering the sensor boss it right against my master cylinder. A wildwood cylinder may resolve it for me, but it's honestly not a big issue in my eyes.
I also reverted back to MSD coils and wires and ditched the stock coil pack, so I lost sequential injection anyway by doing so, due to the difference in ICMs. Though I'm getting way off topic now, lol.
And as far as guys with the f32 trans, if you use an LSJ block, you'll obvisouly need the LSJ flywheel/clutch, but you also need to the aluminum trans spacer if you are running a stock clutch/flywheel...the diameter is just a bit larger than the f23's and binds without it. I do know of a JBO member running a Spec setup with his LSJ bottom, no spacer, and no clearance issues. Just FYI
Anyway, here she is...an LSJ where it doesn't belong, lol.
Here's the trigger wheel PJ and I use to correct the reluctor ring not matching the electronics. This is actually a copy, a few J-body guys have run hybrids so far, and one guy had his machinist make copies of the TCE Motorsports wheel.
It usually takes a little tweaking to get it lined up just right. The original TCE wheel had a keyway in it it to properly time it, but that goes out the window when you use it on other platforms (it's designed for gm v6 swaps).
Not too complicated, set motor to TDC, then align the timing tooth of the trigger wheel with your external CKP. Only small hurtle if it's not dead on, you could be +/- a few degress timing...nothing HPT can't compensate for, just sucks if you ever need to pull the wheel off for whatever reason, you'll need to get it back it on exactly the same.
I know DIYautotune sells a variety of trigger wheels intended for use with Megasquirt, but I think I remember seeing a 60-2 wheel, which if that's the case, any LSJ guys should be able to do like I did and just slap that wheel on and mount a CKP on a bracket next to it.
Now for you 2.2 guys thinking of going with an LSJ head, keep in mind you won't be able to run the LSJ cam sensor....not positive for the LSJ since I'm not overly familiar with the PCMs/fueling, etc, but for me that means losing sequential injection and defaulting to batch fire mode. Not a huge issue for me, as anything over 3800 rpm defaults to batch fire regardless with a J-body pcm, but again, not sure how that effects you guys.
I thought about trying to run the LSJ cam sensor when I megasquirt, but I'm not sure if I'll have the physical room considering the sensor boss it right against my master cylinder. A wildwood cylinder may resolve it for me, but it's honestly not a big issue in my eyes.
I also reverted back to MSD coils and wires and ditched the stock coil pack, so I lost sequential injection anyway by doing so, due to the difference in ICMs. Though I'm getting way off topic now, lol.
And as far as guys with the f32 trans, if you use an LSJ block, you'll obvisouly need the LSJ flywheel/clutch, but you also need to the aluminum trans spacer if you are running a stock clutch/flywheel...the diameter is just a bit larger than the f23's and binds without it. I do know of a JBO member running a Spec setup with his LSJ bottom, no spacer, and no clearance issues. Just FYI
Anyway, here she is...an LSJ where it doesn't belong, lol.
01-24-2013, 07:34 PM
#42
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as per matt's text, here I am.
the delta guys have it a lot easier so far as hybrid swaps because all your reluctor rings have the same trigger pattern.
be careful with what L61 engines you buy.. the older (2005 and earlier) ecotecs found in j-bodies have a 6+1 trigger pattern. this will not work with the delta PCM.
also, the older L61 engines.. the reluctor ring is CAST into the counterweight on the end of the crankshaft. There is no removing it without putting the crank on a lathe and lathing it down.
so far as mix/match hybrids go, here's my opinions on the matters:
LSJ head is best for port injection, hands down.
the L61 and other lost-foam cast heads (LAP, LE5, etc) suffer from oil/coolant seepage on occasion. It's a hit-or-miss problem, but if you're building a car for performance and don't already have an LSJ head, get one.
there are no flow advantages, or anything to that effect. But, the LSJ has sodium-filled valves (much better for boost temperatures) and it is also sand-cast, so the structure doesn't suffer from the seepage issues that the L61 head does.
bottom end wise, you have to ask yourself what you're asking the car to do.
if you want a street fighter that won't really see the track too often, the LE5 bottom end is a great upgrade from the LSJ block.
some of the LE5s even have the external oil-cooler like the LSJ does, so you can hook everything up just like before.
there is a downside, however.. your clutch/flywheel will not bolt to the LE5 crankshaft. LE5/L61 cranks have 6 bolts, the LSJ/LNF have 8. you can't mix and match them. if you use a crank, you have to use the matching clutch/flywheel setup.
I was toying with the idea of mixing an LE5 block with an LSJ crank, using off-the-shelf LE5 aftermarket pistons and having custom rods made, however I have not built the engine yet.
I had an LSJ bottom end/ L61 hybrid in my 2002 cavalier for a while. But, my DD broke down (an 04 cavalier) and I decided to strip the 'racecar' to fix the DD. Except I ditched the hybrid and went pure-blood LSJ.
I modded it a bit to fit the LE5 intake manifold and plan on turbo charging it. The S/C setup was sold a very long time ago, but I had the engine sitting around in my other car doing nothing.
the LE5 intake manifold is NOT a bolt on. I had to modify the manifold slightly, plug the PCV port on the manifold, and drill/tap the PCV port on the head and run it externally to the manifold. It was a bit of a pain, but worth it to have the LSJ running on a manifold that would flow decent without boost in front of it.
since the LSJ is 60-2, and my car's PCM is looking for 6+1, I had to run an external crank trigger
replaces the water pump cover and mounts the VR sensor up and out of the way. safe and sound from road debris
you guys wouldn't have to worry about that tho. your trigger rings are swappable (I'm guessing not doing this causes starting issues?)
also bear in mind a lot of the L61 blocks do NOT have oil squirters.
LE5 blocks are genII, so a tiny bit stronger in the structural department.
the LE5 bottom end would bump compression up slightly. A thing to keep in mind if you're boosted, or want to be.
the L61 is probably the easiest ecotec to find. It has a lot of aftermarket available since it's the oldest, but in stock form it's not really that strong.
again, a lot of L61 variants do NOT have oil squirters
uses a 6 bolt crank (so say goodbye to your LSJ clutch/flywheel)
I'm running an LSJ and fly/clutch setup with an F23. All I needed to do was add the OEM spacer that comes with LSJ equipped cars.
with an aftermarket clutch, there's a possibility I wouldn't need it, but I confirmed that without the spacer, the pressure plate body rubs on the inside of the F23 bellhousing.
the delta guys have it a lot easier so far as hybrid swaps because all your reluctor rings have the same trigger pattern.
be careful with what L61 engines you buy.. the older (2005 and earlier) ecotecs found in j-bodies have a 6+1 trigger pattern. this will not work with the delta PCM.
also, the older L61 engines.. the reluctor ring is CAST into the counterweight on the end of the crankshaft. There is no removing it without putting the crank on a lathe and lathing it down.
so far as mix/match hybrids go, here's my opinions on the matters:
LSJ head is best for port injection, hands down.
the L61 and other lost-foam cast heads (LAP, LE5, etc) suffer from oil/coolant seepage on occasion. It's a hit-or-miss problem, but if you're building a car for performance and don't already have an LSJ head, get one.
there are no flow advantages, or anything to that effect. But, the LSJ has sodium-filled valves (much better for boost temperatures) and it is also sand-cast, so the structure doesn't suffer from the seepage issues that the L61 head does.
bottom end wise, you have to ask yourself what you're asking the car to do.
if you want a street fighter that won't really see the track too often, the LE5 bottom end is a great upgrade from the LSJ block.
some of the LE5s even have the external oil-cooler like the LSJ does, so you can hook everything up just like before.
there is a downside, however.. your clutch/flywheel will not bolt to the LE5 crankshaft. LE5/L61 cranks have 6 bolts, the LSJ/LNF have 8. you can't mix and match them. if you use a crank, you have to use the matching clutch/flywheel setup.
I was toying with the idea of mixing an LE5 block with an LSJ crank, using off-the-shelf LE5 aftermarket pistons and having custom rods made, however I have not built the engine yet.
I had an LSJ bottom end/ L61 hybrid in my 2002 cavalier for a while. But, my DD broke down (an 04 cavalier) and I decided to strip the 'racecar' to fix the DD. Except I ditched the hybrid and went pure-blood LSJ.
I modded it a bit to fit the LE5 intake manifold and plan on turbo charging it. The S/C setup was sold a very long time ago, but I had the engine sitting around in my other car doing nothing.
the LE5 intake manifold is NOT a bolt on. I had to modify the manifold slightly, plug the PCV port on the manifold, and drill/tap the PCV port on the head and run it externally to the manifold. It was a bit of a pain, but worth it to have the LSJ running on a manifold that would flow decent without boost in front of it.
since the LSJ is 60-2, and my car's PCM is looking for 6+1, I had to run an external crank trigger
replaces the water pump cover and mounts the VR sensor up and out of the way. safe and sound from road debris
you guys wouldn't have to worry about that tho. your trigger rings are swappable (I'm guessing not doing this causes starting issues?)
also bear in mind a lot of the L61 blocks do NOT have oil squirters.
LE5 blocks are genII, so a tiny bit stronger in the structural department.
the LE5 bottom end would bump compression up slightly. A thing to keep in mind if you're boosted, or want to be.
the L61 is probably the easiest ecotec to find. It has a lot of aftermarket available since it's the oldest, but in stock form it's not really that strong.
again, a lot of L61 variants do NOT have oil squirters
uses a 6 bolt crank (so say goodbye to your LSJ clutch/flywheel)
I'm running an LSJ and fly/clutch setup with an F23. All I needed to do was add the OEM spacer that comes with LSJ equipped cars.
with an aftermarket clutch, there's a possibility I wouldn't need it, but I confirmed that without the spacer, the pressure plate body rubs on the inside of the F23 bellhousing.
Last edited by DaFlyinSkwirl; 01-24-2013 at 07:40 PM.
01-24-2013, 08:35 PM
#44
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also, L61 cars can use their wasted spark COP setup (the J-body ignition).
all you have to do is modify the center spark plug cover, take the top cover off the L61 ignition, and grind down the holes and it'll fit in place on the LSJ valve cover.
then, bolt down the ignition top cover to hold it in place. plug it in, done. (refer to my FIRST picture... my coil cover is painted arrival blue). you can see where I had to machine it out in order to clear the ICM.
all you have to do is modify the center spark plug cover, take the top cover off the L61 ignition, and grind down the holes and it'll fit in place on the LSJ valve cover.
then, bolt down the ignition top cover to hold it in place. plug it in, done. (refer to my FIRST picture... my coil cover is painted arrival blue). you can see where I had to machine it out in order to clear the ICM.
Last edited by DaFlyinSkwirl; 01-24-2013 at 08:39 PM. Reason: first pic, not third.. OOPS
01-24-2013, 08:42 PM
#45
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idk what else to add, so if you guys have questions about hybrids, what fits what, etc, ask away.
chances are I've tried it, and confirmed it will work, would not work, or COULD work with custom parts.
I've disassembled more L61s than I care to admit, LE5s, LE5/L61 hybrids, LSJ/L61 hybrids, and running an LSJ in a jbody on factory electronics, so I'm pretty well versed in the mechanical specs and the electrical aspect of them.
chances are I've tried it, and confirmed it will work, would not work, or COULD work with custom parts.
I've disassembled more L61s than I care to admit, LE5s, LE5/L61 hybrids, LSJ/L61 hybrids, and running an LSJ in a jbody on factory electronics, so I'm pretty well versed in the mechanical specs and the electrical aspect of them.
01-24-2013, 08:52 PM
#46
im loving this. i love my SS/NA (LE5), but she has 175K on her. im sure she will last a bit longer, but i've been thinking about starting a motor build for when she gets tired. I dont want to have to deal with eliminating the VVT, it would be fine to work with, and HPT supports it. but at the same time, not sure i want to loose displacement.
01-25-2013, 11:37 AM
#47
good info but the lsj valves are not sodium filled this was proven years back it would take a 2 piece valve and a 2 piece valve wouldent hold up to the spring pressure and rpm ability of the lsj but there is a part number to a flywheel that is for eco hybrid swaps 2.4 crank in to a lsj and so on
GDS
GDS
Last edited by mrbelvedere; 01-25-2013 at 11:45 AM.
01-25-2013, 04:17 PM
#49
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good info but the lsj valves are not sodium filled this was proven years back it would take a 2 piece valve and a 2 piece valve wouldent hold up to the spring pressure and rpm ability of the lsj but there is a part number to a flywheel that is for eco hybrid swaps 2.4 crank in to a lsj and so on
GDS
GDS
Originally Posted by IonNinja
I was just looking at this for kicks the other day. Is there a documented how-to on these swaps anywhere?
I had a thread on the LSJ/L61 hybrid I did (lsj bottom end, l61 head) but it got messy because it was when I was figuring out what I needed to do.
swapping heads is pretty easy. There's nothing that really needs to be modified.
it's only when you want to use a plastic intake manifold that the LSJ head needs to be modified slightly. and those mods are all related to the intake flange for the PCV system to work properly.
head-to-block interfaces are all extremely similar. the only thing you need to change inbetween them is the headgasket... for LE5 block based hybrids, you need to use a headgasket that is 88mm bore or larger.
there's a few weird anomalies here and there... like, swapping the LSJ head on to an L61 gives you an extra ECT sensor.. because the L61 has it's sensor in the thermostat housing, while the LSJ has one in the head by the upper rad hose.
if you look in the picture of my engine, you can see an ECT sensor hooked up but the wires just hanging out.. I plan on using that for when I upgrade to megasquirt.
but for the most part, the non-vvt swaps are pretty straight forward.
I admit however, my experience with vvt heads is extremely limited.