ZZP Twin Charge...anyone install it themselves?
12-02-2009, 06:51 PM
#4
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as far as i know there are two hurdles,
1. tune (not anyone can do it)
2. boost controller settings (they have got to be spot on, one controls s/c one t/c)
other than that its gonna be the same as any other "bolt on kit" there will be a snag or two but nothing one cant overcome.
the main problem is your gonna need to build the motor, or... drive around not knowing when and were its gonna take a dump lol my motor lasted 22,000+ mi before it finally blew (i am turbo not twincharged) but it finally cracked a sleeve (just did pistons first time around)
think about it this way, you will be asking for 100+hp out of each cylinder. i cant think of any motor with a .5L displacement (in other words 500cc) making 100hp so its not like this is done daily. we are asking alot out of these 2.0's
1. tune (not anyone can do it)
2. boost controller settings (they have got to be spot on, one controls s/c one t/c)
other than that its gonna be the same as any other "bolt on kit" there will be a snag or two but nothing one cant overcome.
the main problem is your gonna need to build the motor, or... drive around not knowing when and were its gonna take a dump lol my motor lasted 22,000+ mi before it finally blew (i am turbo not twincharged) but it finally cracked a sleeve (just did pistons first time around)
think about it this way, you will be asking for 100+hp out of each cylinder. i cant think of any motor with a .5L displacement (in other words 500cc) making 100hp so its not like this is done daily. we are asking alot out of these 2.0's
Last edited by hungryhip-ccp; 12-02-2009 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
12-02-2009, 07:18 PM
#6
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you can have a pretty reliable twincharged car without a fully built motor. You have zzp do the tune and they cap the psi at 20 for any DD they do. As long as you treat it right it will treat you right. Im sure there will be many that disagree but just look at the twincharged cars that they have on stock internals and they are still running fine with no blow up's.
Just my 2cents and with todays conversion rates thats not worth much
Just my 2cents and with todays conversion rates thats not worth much
12-02-2009, 07:32 PM
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i know what your asking, its just i dont have a simple answer. i could talk for ever but my typing sucs
you can have a pretty reliable twincharged car without a fully built motor. You have zzp do the tune and they cap the psi at 20 for any DD they do. As long as you treat it right it will treat you right. Im sure there will be many that disagree but just look at the twincharged cars that they have on stock internals and they are still running fine with no blow up's.
Just my 2cents and with todays conversion rates thats not worth much
Just my 2cents and with todays conversion rates thats not worth much
Last edited by hungryhip-ccp; 12-02-2009 at 07:32 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
12-02-2009, 07:35 PM
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Meh I like reading and getiing info. plus I like to learn this stuff. Because I see that ZZP's car only had #78 spring upgrade (i thnk, correct if wrong) with everything else stock. But still your right. Factory internals are for what came factory. now its just on steroids.
12-02-2009, 07:45 PM
#11
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Tuning is big hurddle... altho a speed density set up with be a good solution, but from what i understand the emc wont read higher than 16psi. It sounds like there setup is more a sequential boost set up then a compound boost. were the supercharger dose work lowdown then the bypass valve opens and the turbo takes over and dose most of the work. a set up like that takes some crafty tuning. so i think all installs are done at zzp
to me going speed density and running a compound boost setup sounds so much easer to tune. were the sc is set for a max psi and the turbo is set for a max like sc=12psi turbo=10 psi so you get a total peruser of 22psi
the main problem is your gonna need to build the motor, or... drive around not knowing when and were its gonna take a dump lol my motor lasted 22,000+ mi before it finally blew (i am turbo not twincharged) but it finally cracked a sleeve (just did pistons first time around)
think about it this way, you will be asking for 100+hp out of each cylinder. i cant think of any motor with a .5L displacement (in other words 500cc) making 100hp so its not like this is done daily. we are asking alot out of these 2.0's
how much power were you making when you cracked a sleeve.
I think with a good tune and the right supporting mods 350-400hp reliably on a DD is possible. the great thing about boost is that your not always making max power. I don't think iv seen one SS running an upgraded engine cooling system, would be the first thing i would do if i were building a 400+hp DD in anycar.
to me going speed density and running a compound boost setup sounds so much easer to tune. were the sc is set for a max psi and the turbo is set for a max like sc=12psi turbo=10 psi so you get a total peruser of 22psi
the main problem is your gonna need to build the motor, or... drive around not knowing when and were its gonna take a dump lol my motor lasted 22,000+ mi before it finally blew (i am turbo not twincharged) but it finally cracked a sleeve (just did pistons first time around)
think about it this way, you will be asking for 100+hp out of each cylinder. i cant think of any motor with a .5L displacement (in other words 500cc) making 100hp so its not like this is done daily. we are asking alot out of these 2.0's
I think with a good tune and the right supporting mods 350-400hp reliably on a DD is possible. the great thing about boost is that your not always making max power. I don't think iv seen one SS running an upgraded engine cooling system, would be the first thing i would do if i were building a 400+hp DD in anycar.
12-02-2009, 07:52 PM
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i meant production but.... what ev
i dont know, but the video is in my sig! before the tune i dynod 370 so i was around 400+
not to much over as im on stock cams, but paul made 411 and i was knocking on the back door of 400 if not there.
Tuning is big hurddle... altho a speed density set up with be a good solution, but from what i understand the emc wont read higher than 16psi. It sounds like there setup is more a sequential boost set up then a compound boost. were the supercharger dose work lowdown then the bypass valve opens and the turbo takes over and dose most of the work. a set up like that takes some crafty tuning. so i think all installs are done at zzp
to me going speed density and running a compound boost setup sounds so much easer to tune. were the sc is set for a max psi and the turbo is set for a max like sc=12psi turbo=10 psi so you get a total peruser of 22psi
how much power were you making when you cracked a sleve.
to me going speed density and running a compound boost setup sounds so much easer to tune. were the sc is set for a max psi and the turbo is set for a max like sc=12psi turbo=10 psi so you get a total peruser of 22psi
how much power were you making when you cracked a sleve.
i dont know, but the video is in my sig! before the tune i dynod 370 so i was around 400+
not to much over as im on stock cams, but paul made 411 and i was knocking on the back door of 400 if not there.
Last edited by hungryhip-ccp; 12-02-2009 at 07:52 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
12-02-2009, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by [B
hatrickstu[/B];4496909]i understand 
s2k with some bewst will do it stock motor :p
s2k with some bewst will do it stock motor :p
i know what ya mean its just thats the way to look at it that usually blows people's mind. if you talk about ohh 400 this and 450 that and no one bats an eye (cause production cars make these numbers these days)
but then you tell the older cats: "100hp per cyl" and there like huh as heads snap around lol
12-02-2009, 08:08 PM
#16
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is s2k the one that comes with everything fully forged, knife edged crank, and full type r production cams,lifters ect? i only know a little about honduhs but i know that that motor is the shiznit and i wish my economy cobalt came with that ****!
whats the engine code for the motor i speak of?
whats the engine code for the motor i speak of?
12-02-2009, 08:11 PM
#17
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f20 IIRC. and yes, its an amazing motAr
f22 is the later model s2k motor. lower revs, higher displacement. kind of funny actually. the ap2 body style came with the f22, but the s2k CR edition (all ap2 body style) came with the f20 because people still liked it more lol
f22 is the later model s2k motor. lower revs, higher displacement. kind of funny actually. the ap2 body style came with the f22, but the s2k CR edition (all ap2 body style) came with the f20 because people still liked it more lol
12-02-2009, 08:30 PM
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3" pulley: ~15psi
atmospheric pressure: 14.7
15 + 14.7 = 29.7 psi(absolute pressure)
29.7 / 14.7 = 2.0
2.0:1
10(turbo psi) * 2.0 = 20 psi ....approx
So by this example, 15+10=20
12-02-2009, 08:47 PM
#19
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If the turbo compresses the air to 10psi, that 10psi charge goes in to the blower that then adds to it. but not a straight 1+1=2 kind of way.
3" pulley: ~15psi
atmospheric pressure: 14.7
15 + 14.7 = 29.7 psi(absolute pressure)
29.7 / 14.7 = 2.0
2.0:1
10(turbo psi) * 2.0 = 20 psi ....approx
So by this example, 15+10=20
3" pulley: ~15psi
atmospheric pressure: 14.7
15 + 14.7 = 29.7 psi(absolute pressure)
29.7 / 14.7 = 2.0
2.0:1
10(turbo psi) * 2.0 = 20 psi ....approx
So by this example, 15+10=20
What I'm getting at is rather than having to be super precise on what the sc is doing and what the turbo is doing all you would have to care about is what the max presser is at the manifold,engine rpm and air temp. you wouldnt need a maf wich would make tuning a butt load easer.
12-02-2009, 09:10 PM
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i was thinking that the sc would set to 12 or 15 psi and a turbo set to 20, after the bypass valve opens the supercharger no longer is boosting, the turbo is forcing it through
12-02-2009, 09:48 PM
#22
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every kit iv seen for (mustang,ford gt) has been compound. but i guess when your making 900+hp parasitic loss doesn't really matter all that much. idk how much work the zzp turbo is doing, but i always thought the idea of a compound boost(twin charge) was to use a big turbo that would normally be to leggy to run at a relatively low yet efficient pressure. the down side is you don't make as much power as you would on turbo alone , but you end up with a nice torquey flat power band engine.
12-02-2009, 10:58 PM
#23
every kit iv seen for (mustang,ford gt) has been compound. but i guess when your making 900+hp parasitic loss doesn't really matter all that much. idk how much work the zzp turbo is doing, but i always thought the idea of a compound boost(twin charge) was to use a big turbo that would normally be to leggy to run at a relatively low yet efficient pressure. the down side is you don't make as much power as you would on turbo alone , but you end up with a nice torquey flat power band engine.
2: the urpose of twincharging is so the SC can provide the low end torque and instant power needed wile you're massive turbos spool up. You choose larger than normal turbos because you dont need to worry about spool/lag time with a twincharge setup, so you're looking solely at airflow/efficiency. You dont want the SC compounding the boost once it has switched to the turbos because the SC will NOT flow what the turbos do, and will only add heat and parasitic losses. It IS however, far easier to set up and tune for a compounded setup than a sequential setup.
12-02-2009, 11:04 PM
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If the turbo compresses the air to 10psi, that 10psi charge goes in to the blower that then adds to it. but not a straight 1+1=2 kind of way.
3" pulley: ~15psi
atmospheric pressure: 14.7
15 + 14.7 = 29.7 psi(absolute pressure)
29.7 / 14.7 = 2.0
2.0:1
10(turbo psi) * 2.0 = 20 psi ....approx
So by this example, 15+10=20
3" pulley: ~15psi
atmospheric pressure: 14.7
15 + 14.7 = 29.7 psi(absolute pressure)
29.7 / 14.7 = 2.0
2.0:1
10(turbo psi) * 2.0 = 20 psi ....approx
So by this example, 15+10=20
12-03-2009, 12:40 AM
#25
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1: compounded boost and twincharged should not be used interchangeably like you just did
2: the urpose of twincharging is so the SC can provide the low end torque and instant power needed wile you're massive turbos spool up. You choose larger than normal turbos because you dont need to worry about spool/lag time with a twincharge setup, so you're looking solely at airflow/efficiency. You dont want the SC compounding the boost once it has switched to the turbos because the SC will NOT flow what the turbos do, and will only add heat and parasitic losses. It IS however, far easier to set up and tune for a compounded setup than a sequential setup.
2: the urpose of twincharging is so the SC can provide the low end torque and instant power needed wile you're massive turbos spool up. You choose larger than normal turbos because you dont need to worry about spool/lag time with a twincharge setup, so you're looking solely at airflow/efficiency. You dont want the SC compounding the boost once it has switched to the turbos because the SC will NOT flow what the turbos do, and will only add heat and parasitic losses. It IS however, far easier to set up and tune for a compounded setup than a sequential setup.
now I'm just picking your brain at this point.
At the sacrifice of top end power .lets say you don't want super crazy power, say around 365ish maybe alittle more for track days.
I'm kinda set on the compound setup because of the way it multiples boost. you can run the turbo at a fairly low psi which will make allot less heat before the supercharger which would elemaite the need for 2nd intercooler. Idk i just dont think pariticy losse casued by the superchaer is much , when you think how much harder the turbo has to work .