300 HP NA build
10-23-2009, 12:57 PM
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300 HP NA build
Don't bother telling me I could get more HP for less $$ if it were blown. We're not allowed to run turbos or blowers. This is what it is going in.
Currently I am running a stock 2.2 L61... well stock except for the intake, header, dry sump, distributor, and methanol injection.
But I need more power
The plan for the winter is to build a 2.4 that puts out 300HP. I know GM & Roush have done 340HP, and I know about the drag car that has to be putting out even more than that, but we still need to have some torque for restarts, and getting off the corners. So I am willing to give up some all out HP for a broader torque curve. It needs to start making power by 2500-3000, and run to 7000-7500. And if we're coming down to the line, and need to push it a little harder I want to be able to turn it to 8000+ without hurting it.
The parts list looks like this:
RRE intake (have)
Hilborn mechanical fuel injection (have)
Barnes dry sump (have)
Mallory distributor (have)
Ported 2.2 head (have the head, it will be ported by Chapman Racing Heads)
Valves (undecided)
Springs (undecided)
Retainers (undecided)
Cams (undecided)
Adjustable Cam Gears (Bates)
LE5 Block (have)
Oil filter housing removed (GM build book)
Balance Shaft delete (not sure whos, Level Zero or GM)
Mechanical chain tensioner (GM build book)
Eagle L61 Rods (have)
Pistons (JE 14.5:1 custom w/ rings)
Crank, stock (have)
I'm open to suggestions on parts I haven't decided on yet, or potential mistakes I have decided on.
My biggest question is what cams to get. It seems there is lots of experience with turbo cams, and mild NA cams. But even at that, what experience there is seems to be all drag race related. Oh well, help me spend my $$$
Currently I am running a stock 2.2 L61... well stock except for the intake, header, dry sump, distributor, and methanol injection.
But I need more power
The plan for the winter is to build a 2.4 that puts out 300HP. I know GM & Roush have done 340HP, and I know about the drag car that has to be putting out even more than that, but we still need to have some torque for restarts, and getting off the corners. So I am willing to give up some all out HP for a broader torque curve. It needs to start making power by 2500-3000, and run to 7000-7500. And if we're coming down to the line, and need to push it a little harder I want to be able to turn it to 8000+ without hurting it.
The parts list looks like this:
RRE intake (have)
Hilborn mechanical fuel injection (have)
Barnes dry sump (have)
Mallory distributor (have)
Ported 2.2 head (have the head, it will be ported by Chapman Racing Heads)
Valves (undecided)
Springs (undecided)
Retainers (undecided)
Cams (undecided)
Adjustable Cam Gears (Bates)
LE5 Block (have)
Oil filter housing removed (GM build book)
Balance Shaft delete (not sure whos, Level Zero or GM)
Mechanical chain tensioner (GM build book)
Eagle L61 Rods (have)
Pistons (JE 14.5:1 custom w/ rings)
Crank, stock (have)
I'm open to suggestions on parts I haven't decided on yet, or potential mistakes I have decided on.
My biggest question is what cams to get. It seems there is lots of experience with turbo cams, and mild NA cams. But even at that, what experience there is seems to be all drag race related. Oh well, help me spend my $$$
10-23-2009, 01:13 PM
#3
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Lol you have stumbled across the wrong forum, you probably know more about the ecotec or cars and motor sports than most of the people on the forum.
as far as cams go i would find someone to make you a custom grind for your application. I dont think anyone here as ever built such an extreme engine. so i doubt there's a off the self cam that would work well with your set up. I think most of the drag cams will only give you power above 5krpm, i dont know of any race cams for the ecotec that are designed for road race.
as for the block you could start with a lnf block since it has piston sqirters and its a little more stout,and bigger water jackets for better cooling and build a Frankenstein stroker like the guys at ZZp did.
as far as cams go i would find someone to make you a custom grind for your application. I dont think anyone here as ever built such an extreme engine. so i doubt there's a off the self cam that would work well with your set up. I think most of the drag cams will only give you power above 5krpm, i dont know of any race cams for the ecotec that are designed for road race.
as for the block you could start with a lnf block since it has piston sqirters and its a little more stout,and bigger water jackets for better cooling and build a Frankenstein stroker like the guys at ZZp did.
10-23-2009, 01:24 PM
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10-23-2009, 01:48 PM
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Eric, you should try asking GM racing directly if they are still around after the bankruptcy. I spoke with Carmen Smith and Bob Hervers during my engine build. They were very helpful and Carmen even sent me a modified timing chain tensioner for free to help me out. You basically can get access to the engineers that made the cobalt drag cars.
You can reach them through the GMtunersource website. Carmen's email is carmen.smith at GM.com if she is still around.
10-23-2009, 02:05 PM
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are you going for 300 crank hp? or 300whp?
300whp, I just don't see it happening. You're already going to need to re-sleeve it and bore and stroke to the max. Probably a 2.4 crank to save money, and use darton sleeves at 90mm. That'll give you a 2.5ltr. I see you are going with 14:1 comp, good choice on that.
The head and cams is where you are going to make your power. You need a properly ported head, especially if you want tq as well. I recommend Randy Richards Racing in Kansas City. You don't want huge ports, you want high velocity ports. Talk to Randy. And as far as cams, you'll probably just need to go ahead and go with Solid lifters, and get some regrinds best suited for you. I'm not an expert on cams, but V8's tend to make good power with a lot of lift and a low LSA.
Good luck.
300whp, I just don't see it happening. You're already going to need to re-sleeve it and bore and stroke to the max. Probably a 2.4 crank to save money, and use darton sleeves at 90mm. That'll give you a 2.5ltr. I see you are going with 14:1 comp, good choice on that.
The head and cams is where you are going to make your power. You need a properly ported head, especially if you want tq as well. I recommend Randy Richards Racing in Kansas City. You don't want huge ports, you want high velocity ports. Talk to Randy. And as far as cams, you'll probably just need to go ahead and go with Solid lifters, and get some regrinds best suited for you. I'm not an expert on cams, but V8's tend to make good power with a lot of lift and a low LSA.
Good luck.
10-23-2009, 03:15 PM
#9
no one has done 300whp, as the GM/roush ones are 340bhp
also, if you're going to be making 300hp out of a NA 4 banger..you WILL NOT have any torque down low.
I would compensate for this by getting some custom gears that are short as all **** to get you inyour power band as fast as you can
as for the cams comment ralli, higher lift doesnt benefit us much due to our head design (IIRC this was something Area told me). Since lift isnt much of a factor, youre going to have t make power by tinkering with overlap and timing and duration. W/e cams you get, you should get adjustable cam gears as well
also, if you're going to be making 300hp out of a NA 4 banger..you WILL NOT have any torque down low.
I would compensate for this by getting some custom gears that are short as all **** to get you inyour power band as fast as you can
as for the cams comment ralli, higher lift doesnt benefit us much due to our head design (IIRC this was something Area told me). Since lift isnt much of a factor, youre going to have t make power by tinkering with overlap and timing and duration. W/e cams you get, you should get adjustable cam gears as well
10-23-2009, 03:54 PM
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Lol you have stumbled across the wrong forum, you probably know more about the ecotec or cars and motor sports than most of the people on the forum.
as far as cams go i would find someone to make you a custom grind for your application. I dont think anyone here as ever built such an extreme engine. so i doubt there's a off the self cam that would work well with your set up. I think most of the drag cams will only give you power above 5krpm, i dont know of any race cams for the ecotec that are designed for road race.
as for the block you could start with a lnf block since it has piston sqirters and its a little more stout,and bigger water jackets for better cooling and build a Frankenstein stroker like the guys at ZZp did.
as far as cams go i would find someone to make you a custom grind for your application. I dont think anyone here as ever built such an extreme engine. so i doubt there's a off the self cam that would work well with your set up. I think most of the drag cams will only give you power above 5krpm, i dont know of any race cams for the ecotec that are designed for road race.
as for the block you could start with a lnf block since it has piston sqirters and its a little more stout,and bigger water jackets for better cooling and build a Frankenstein stroker like the guys at ZZp did.
I'll have to find out more about the LNF block. My LE5 has the piston squirters. The next version of this will include some Darton sleeves if this isn't enough
Eric, you should try asking GM racing directly if they are still around after the bankruptcy. I spoke with Carmen Smith and Bob Hervers during my engine build. They were very helpful and Carmen even sent me a modified timing chain tensioner for free to help me out. You basically can get access to the engineers that made the cobalt drag cars.
You can reach them through the GMtunersource website. Carmen's email is carmen.smith at GM.com if she is still around.
You can reach them through the GMtunersource website. Carmen's email is carmen.smith at GM.com if she is still around.
[QUOTE=383_Stroker;4400425]What are the other cars running for motor? What kind of power are you competing against?
QUOTE]
I like it. Some day I want a modified. The guys I'm racing against have everything from Esslinger motors to built BMW M3 motors. One of the guys has a built Ecotec with the Kinsler intake. Now I have to step up, or get left behind.
are you going for 300 crank hp? or 300whp?
300whp, I just don't see it happening. You're already going to need to re-sleeve it and bore and stroke to the max. Probably a 2.4 crank to save money, and use darton sleeves at 90mm. That'll give you a 2.5ltr. I see you are going with 14:1 comp, good choice on that.
The head and cams is where you are going to make your power. You need a properly ported head, especially if you want tq as well. I recommend Randy Richards Racing in Kansas City. You don't want huge ports, you want high velocity ports. Talk to Randy. And as far as cams, you'll probably just need to go ahead and go with Solid lifters, and get some regrinds best suited for you. I'm not an expert on cams, but V8's tend to make good power with a lot of lift and a low LSA.
Good luck.
300whp, I just don't see it happening. You're already going to need to re-sleeve it and bore and stroke to the max. Probably a 2.4 crank to save money, and use darton sleeves at 90mm. That'll give you a 2.5ltr. I see you are going with 14:1 comp, good choice on that.
The head and cams is where you are going to make your power. You need a properly ported head, especially if you want tq as well. I recommend Randy Richards Racing in Kansas City. You don't want huge ports, you want high velocity ports. Talk to Randy. And as far as cams, you'll probably just need to go ahead and go with Solid lifters, and get some regrinds best suited for you. I'm not an expert on cams, but V8's tend to make good power with a lot of lift and a low LSA.
Good luck.
I have a 2.4 block & crank. Darton sleeves are the next step if this isn't enough. Just can't afford to go that far right now.
I'll have to check Randy Richards, I know Chapman does GM's & Bates heads. Bates races off road baja type stuff, so I imagine it would require a power band more like what I need.
no one has done 300whp, as the GM/roush ones are 340bhp
also, if you're going to be making 300hp out of a NA 4 banger..you WILL NOT have any torque down low.
I would compensate for this by getting some custom gears that are short as all **** to get you inyour power band as fast as you can
also, if you're going to be making 300hp out of a NA 4 banger..you WILL NOT have any torque down low.
I would compensate for this by getting some custom gears that are short as all **** to get you inyour power band as fast as you can
I have a quick change rearend, so we change gearing for each track so that the motor is wound all the way out, every time.
Thanks for the tips guys. Anyone with actual Ecotec NA experience I'd love to hear it.
10-26-2009, 09:26 AM
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11-06-2009, 03:11 PM
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The block is about ready...
The oil filter was in the way of the intake, and since I am running a dry sump it has a remote filter anyhow.
Now you see it...
Now you don't...
I put it on the Bridgeport at work to clean up my sawzall cuts.
After milling it flat, I plunged a 3/4" hole into each of the two ports I don't need anymore. Then cut a couple of plugs from some 3/4" aluminum rod, and welded them closed. The fitting for the oil feed line is a standard weld on piece from the local hydraulics shop.
Next on the list is to cut the balance shafts down, and figure out the best way to plug the oil holes in the block. I know Level Zero just presses a plug into the existing bearing, but since I have the motor completley apart, I want to make sure there isn't a better way to do it. The book says to knock the two oil port plugs out of the front of the motor, and tap the passages for threaded plugs. I wonder if there isn't a port that I could tap & plug for the balance shafts too?
The oil filter was in the way of the intake, and since I am running a dry sump it has a remote filter anyhow.
Now you see it...
Now you don't...
I put it on the Bridgeport at work to clean up my sawzall cuts.
After milling it flat, I plunged a 3/4" hole into each of the two ports I don't need anymore. Then cut a couple of plugs from some 3/4" aluminum rod, and welded them closed. The fitting for the oil feed line is a standard weld on piece from the local hydraulics shop.
Next on the list is to cut the balance shafts down, and figure out the best way to plug the oil holes in the block. I know Level Zero just presses a plug into the existing bearing, but since I have the motor completley apart, I want to make sure there isn't a better way to do it. The book says to knock the two oil port plugs out of the front of the motor, and tap the passages for threaded plugs. I wonder if there isn't a port that I could tap & plug for the balance shafts too?
11-09-2009, 01:10 PM
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Balance Shafts are done...
I used the bandsaw at work to cut off what I wanted to keep. Then cleaned them up in the lathe.
After some measuring and guessing, here are the pieces I made to plug off the oil holes in the bearings. I made an aluminum plug to put in them and hammer against, so I didn't make a mess of the pretty parts
I did a bit of searching, and the bearings have multiple holes in them, and after looking at how the rest of the block is done, I'm pretty confident that there is a channel cast all the way around behind the bearing. I doubt that there is a clean way to plug the leak any other way. It might have been more correct to knock the bearing out, then press a plug in. But either way it does the same thing, and besides if you knock the bearing out, there is no way to get it out of the block. The opening behind the bearing is cast with now opening big enough for the bearing to fit thru.
I used the bandsaw at work to cut off what I wanted to keep. Then cleaned them up in the lathe.
After some measuring and guessing, here are the pieces I made to plug off the oil holes in the bearings. I made an aluminum plug to put in them and hammer against, so I didn't make a mess of the pretty parts
I did a bit of searching, and the bearings have multiple holes in them, and after looking at how the rest of the block is done, I'm pretty confident that there is a channel cast all the way around behind the bearing. I doubt that there is a clean way to plug the leak any other way. It might have been more correct to knock the bearing out, then press a plug in. But either way it does the same thing, and besides if you knock the bearing out, there is no way to get it out of the block. The opening behind the bearing is cast with now opening big enough for the bearing to fit thru.
11-09-2009, 02:15 PM
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Good luck with the build!
11-14-2009, 10:14 PM
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What the heck is that thing?? Is that a late model chassis with a 4 cylinder in it? I race dirt modifides in the oklahoma area but iv never seen anything like that lol. we have mini stocks that run ecotecs and focus motors and stuff but no full size cars...
11-14-2009, 10:48 PM
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theres a shop about 6 miles from my house...they are called Custom Built Motors and they build ecotecs to drop them in sandrails all the time...they have a 13.1cr ecotec that makes 300hp...maybe you can get in touch with them and have them send you a built engine already
http://www.cbfunforyou.com/
http://www.cbfunforyou.com/
11-14-2009, 11:21 PM
#18
Chapman does good stuff, I wouldnt hesitate to use them.
Valves you should have no issues with Ferrea or Sil, you could call DelWest and see what they can do for you too, titanium isnt necessary but sure would be nice.
Springs I personally like Ferrea and Psi, lotsa of guys with serious blown engines run supertechs
Retainers, mateched to springs obviouslyi think Trick and a few other make Ti ones, same for locks. 7deg single groove is probably what youll find the Roush engines used.(I contacted Roush multiple times regarding NA build bits, I never got any response, but I dont have many connections to flaunt, maybe you could do better)
Cams I would say custom or I can PM a company to contact, I would think somewhere in the 280s for duration and high 12s for lift, and solid lash adjusters to go with them, I would say Jesel just so you can get there dual roller followers, maybe overkill, but cant hurt
Personally I would ditch the Eagle rods an run LSJ rods.
Valves you should have no issues with Ferrea or Sil, you could call DelWest and see what they can do for you too, titanium isnt necessary but sure would be nice.
Springs I personally like Ferrea and Psi, lotsa of guys with serious blown engines run supertechs
Retainers, mateched to springs obviouslyi think Trick and a few other make Ti ones, same for locks. 7deg single groove is probably what youll find the Roush engines used.(I contacted Roush multiple times regarding NA build bits, I never got any response, but I dont have many connections to flaunt, maybe you could do better)
Cams I would say custom or I can PM a company to contact, I would think somewhere in the 280s for duration and high 12s for lift, and solid lash adjusters to go with them, I would say Jesel just so you can get there dual roller followers, maybe overkill, but cant hurt
Personally I would ditch the Eagle rods an run LSJ rods.
11-14-2009, 11:21 PM
#19
Chapman does good stuff, I wouldnt hesitate to use them.
Valves you should have no issues with Ferrea or Sil, you could call DelWest and see what they can do for you too, titanium isnt necessary but sure would be nice.
Springs I personally like Ferrea and Psi, lotsa of guys with serious blown engines run supertechs
Retainers, mateched to springs obviouslyi think Trick and a few other make Ti ones, same for locks. 7deg single groove is probably what youll find the Roush engines used.(I contacted Roush multiple times regarding NA build bits, I never got any response, but I dont have many connections to flaunt, maybe you could do better)
Cams I would say custom or I can PM a company to contact, I would think somewhere in the 280s for duration and high 12s for lift, and solid lash adjusters to go with them, I would say Jesel just so you can get there dual roller followers, maybe overkill, but cant hurt
Personally I would ditch the Eagle rods an run LSJ rods.
Valves you should have no issues with Ferrea or Sil, you could call DelWest and see what they can do for you too, titanium isnt necessary but sure would be nice.
Springs I personally like Ferrea and Psi, lotsa of guys with serious blown engines run supertechs
Retainers, mateched to springs obviouslyi think Trick and a few other make Ti ones, same for locks. 7deg single groove is probably what youll find the Roush engines used.(I contacted Roush multiple times regarding NA build bits, I never got any response, but I dont have many connections to flaunt, maybe you could do better)
Cams I would say custom or I can PM a company to contact, I would think somewhere in the 280s for duration and high 12s for lift, and solid lash adjusters to go with them, I would say Jesel just so you can get there dual roller followers, maybe overkill, but cant hurt
Personally I would ditch the Eagle rods an run LSJ rods.
11-15-2009, 11:05 PM
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Chapman does good stuff, I wouldnt hesitate to use them.
Valves you should have no issues with Ferrea or Sil, you could call DelWest and see what they can do for you too, titanium isnt necessary but sure would be nice.
Springs I personally like Ferrea and Psi, lotsa of guys with serious blown engines run supertechs
Retainers, mateched to springs obviouslyi think Trick and a few other make Ti ones, same for locks. 7deg single groove is probably what youll find the Roush engines used.(I contacted Roush multiple times regarding NA build bits, I never got any response, but I dont have many connections to flaunt, maybe you could do better)
Cams I would say custom or I can PM a company to contact, I would think somewhere in the 280s for duration and high 12s for lift, and solid lash adjusters to go with them, I would say Jesel just so you can get there dual roller followers, maybe overkill, but cant hurt
Personally I would ditch the Eagle rods an run LSJ rods.
Valves you should have no issues with Ferrea or Sil, you could call DelWest and see what they can do for you too, titanium isnt necessary but sure would be nice.
Springs I personally like Ferrea and Psi, lotsa of guys with serious blown engines run supertechs
Retainers, mateched to springs obviouslyi think Trick and a few other make Ti ones, same for locks. 7deg single groove is probably what youll find the Roush engines used.(I contacted Roush multiple times regarding NA build bits, I never got any response, but I dont have many connections to flaunt, maybe you could do better)
Cams I would say custom or I can PM a company to contact, I would think somewhere in the 280s for duration and high 12s for lift, and solid lash adjusters to go with them, I would say Jesel just so you can get there dual roller followers, maybe overkill, but cant hurt
Personally I would ditch the Eagle rods an run LSJ rods.
I was thinking of Bates for cams, or do you have a better source?
Why the LSJ rods over the Eagles? If there's a problem with the Eagles I'd like to change that right away. I'm about ready to order pistons, and assemble the short block.
I'm working on building the distributor right now. I've been so busy working on them I havent taken any pictures yet. Here are a couple of the last one I made. I shorten a Mallory distributor, weld an adapter on the end of the housing, and machine the shaft to run off the Intake cam where the power steering pump used to be.
11-16-2009, 05:06 AM
#22
Thanks for all the tips. I don't think the budget will allow much TI, but if I can swing it
I was thinking of Bates for cams, or do you have a better source?
Why the LSJ rods over the Eagles? If there's a problem with the Eagles I'd like to change that right away. I'm about ready to order pistons, and assemble the short block.
I was thinking of Bates for cams, or do you have a better source?
Why the LSJ rods over the Eagles? If there's a problem with the Eagles I'd like to change that right away. I'm about ready to order pistons, and assemble the short block.
11-16-2009, 05:15 AM
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Wow very cool! Definitely subscribing to see where this goes. Na power is always awesome to me and has a very wicked feel.
As far as cam they do make 2.4 cams but none that are aggressive to my knowledge.
As far as cam they do make 2.4 cams but none that are aggressive to my knowledge.