My Autocross Thread
05-25-2012, 01:46 AM
#27
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Answers (sorry about the long answers, but some of this can't be easily described in a few words):
1. Both the Delrin bushings (that fit into the 'hinge' part of the LCA), and the spherical bearngs (fitting into the rear part of the LCA with a vertical bolt), are used on each side -- both sets parts are needed. You get both with the kit.
2. The sphericals "press-in" with a multi-ton press at an auto shop -- it's not something you can do by hand.
3. The shericals work great, however, they restrict the relative 'drop' of the LCAs so that putting 'stock' type springs in is almost impossible because you have to compress the springs to put them in the car -- it's an almost impossible task inside the wheel well and the strut tunnel. With stock rear bushings (not the Delrin parts), the LCA drops far enough that you can install struts with stock or stock-type springs, and it doesn't take much effort to bolt them in... The sphericals work great with coilovers because the springs are much shorter than stock type springs (my coilover springs are only 6" long up front). Even Eibach ProKit sprngs are almost impossible to install because they are too long without being compressed.
4. So, the reason I use the Delrin parts (they are the 'hinge' part of the LCA) but I've removed the sphericals and replaced them with stock type rear bushings, is so I can more easily change springs which I do fairly regularly during the autocross season.
5. There's no grease 'passage' in the Delrin parts, they're solid. So when I drilled the hole for the Zerk fitting (the grease fitting) on the LCA, I drilled on the top of the LCA bushing location and I drilled through the Delrin and into the space allowed for the steel bar to create a small grease chamber in the Delrin (plus, I'm using gravity to my benefit so the grease drains down into the space - very little space in fact) between the steel bar and the Delrin. When I use my grease gun, I can see grease squeezing out of each end of the bushing.
6. I should add that I had to do a lot of carefull 'honing' to get the Delrin parts to fit inside the stock hole in the aluminum LCA (after I had the stock front rubber bushings removed -- also done with a press at an auto shop -- also not easy aluminum until I could force the Delrin into the LCAs (coaxed with a rubber by hand) -- I used a drill with a brake slave cylinder honing stones to hone the hammer). I also had to hone the inside of the Delrin once it was installed onto the hole in the LCAs to get the replacement steel bar to fit without binding. I used the same brake slave cylinder hone to work the inside of the Delrin until it was a snug but freely moving fit (not 'loose' by any means).
7. The problem I addressed with the grease fitting is that over time (I drive on wet/winter roads) the steel bar rusted and was binding rather than allowing the LCA to move up and down freely. It was making horrible noises (kind of a 'crunching' noise) when it moved up and down. I removed the LCAs, removed the steel bars, polished the bars with emery cloth to eliminate the rust, and then drilled the LCAs and Delrin to use the Zerk fittings so I can now grease -- no more binding and no more noise. If this had been a 'summer-only' car or one that was being regularly disassembled and reassembled (in other words, a real race car), I probably wouldn't have had any problems.
8. About camber changes, you can't use any kind of camber adjusting parts -- like camber 'bolts' -- with a 'stock' class car. You can, however, drill out the lower strut mounting hole (there's a spec for this in GM documentation so it's legal) and get some negative camber in that fashion. You can get -1.5 to -2.0 degrees of negative camber this way. See your friendly local alighment shop to have this done if you don't want to drill-out the struts yourself. You can also have your friendly alignment shop 'shim' the rear out to -1.55 degrees of negative camber -- also lega -- but not more than-1.55 degrees.
Scott
Thanks for all the info man! A press would be no probably as a have a 10-ton in my shop, but would you still suggest I do with delrin leading bushings? I just wasn't sure of this would cure the wheel play under hard braking which I was sure sphericals would
Tires places that do those specify in the fine print that it only applies to a "standard" alignment, IE only to manufacturer's specs. Any other type of alignment where you tell them the specs is considered a performance alignment and priced differently.
05-25-2012, 01:28 PM
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Hey everyone!
I made this thread just to share my first autocross season this summer and to ask questions/get any advice that I can from the pros on here. My first autocross event was today and absolutely loved it! I had never even seen an autocross event before but this spring I decided I wanted to start so I joined SCCA. The event was at a go-kart track (Mid-State Microds Groton,NY) with a road course section but was very tight and that definitely helped me! There were some sweet cars there (my favorites being a Lotus 7, Chevy Corvair and a couple e36 M3's) and I had a great time! Even volunteering was a lot of fun.
I ended up running in NSTC (Novice street touring compact) due to it being my first time but mostly because the Novice Chair told me to
Anyways I ended up winning the novice class! Not only winning but having the best raw time in novice, as well as the best raw time in the regular (non-novice) street touring category with a 68.420!
Anyways I had a few questions for next weekend:
How much tire pressure should I run? I was at 40 front 42 rear today and I think I could like a little more rotation, but I'm not sure. There was a 50ft radius turn I could never get down correct always understeering, which I think might have something to do with tire pressures?
Some guys downshifted into first a few times, but I left it in second the entire race except for the start. Is that ok? Should I start trying to downshift to first?
Any other advice please chime in!
I made this thread just to share my first autocross season this summer and to ask questions/get any advice that I can from the pros on here. My first autocross event was today and absolutely loved it! I had never even seen an autocross event before but this spring I decided I wanted to start so I joined SCCA. The event was at a go-kart track (Mid-State Microds Groton,NY) with a road course section but was very tight and that definitely helped me! There were some sweet cars there (my favorites being a Lotus 7, Chevy Corvair and a couple e36 M3's) and I had a great time! Even volunteering was a lot of fun.
I ended up running in NSTC (Novice street touring compact) due to it being my first time but mostly because the Novice Chair told me to
Anyways I ended up winning the novice class! Not only winning but having the best raw time in novice, as well as the best raw time in the regular (non-novice) street touring category with a 68.420!
Anyways I had a few questions for next weekend:
How much tire pressure should I run? I was at 40 front 42 rear today and I think I could like a little more rotation, but I'm not sure. There was a 50ft radius turn I could never get down correct always understeering, which I think might have something to do with tire pressures?
Some guys downshifted into first a few times, but I left it in second the entire race except for the start. Is that ok? Should I start trying to downshift to first?
Any other advice please chime in!
Decreasing radius turns are very difficult to get right. You have to slow down more than you think you do and you have to torture yourself about holding off on trying to hit the apex of the corner.
Tire pressure is a tricky subject when it comes to FWD cars. I don't want my front tires to roll over and on some street tires with a soft sidewall that is extremely easy to do. I run about 50f/35r on street tires and a little less than that on r compounds. This is with factory suspension. Modifications will change this.
Speaking of mods, the only think you need is more seat time. Don't even buy new tires for a season. You'll be amazed at how much faster you will improve compared to some of your counterparts.
05-29-2012, 11:42 PM
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Thanks for the info
I know this is probably true but I felt a need for a autocross only set of rims/tires after being able to visually see the tread go down on my all-seasons after the first event.
I've been searching for a set of rims/tires and found an amazing deal via ebay that I am going down to PA to pick up tomorrow. They are 4 Sparco assetto gara's with some crap Sumitomo tire. I know it doesn't sound great but they have 300 miles on them and I'm getting them for over half-off
The rims weigh 18 pounds so they are decent and about the best I could find in 7.5 (maximum for STF). I'm actually paying less than what the rims cost new, so the tires are just gonna get used for now.
Will post pics of said rims+tires tmo!
I've been searching for a set of rims/tires and found an amazing deal via ebay that I am going down to PA to pick up tomorrow. They are 4 Sparco assetto gara's with some crap Sumitomo tire. I know it doesn't sound great but they have 300 miles on them and I'm getting them for over half-off
The rims weigh 18 pounds so they are decent and about the best I could find in 7.5 (maximum for STF). I'm actually paying less than what the rims cost new, so the tires are just gonna get used for now.Will post pics of said rims+tires tmo!
05-30-2012, 09:54 AM
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Unless you're driving an s2000 or something similar then there is no reason to shift down to first (or up to 3rd for that matter). If you are really bogging the engine down, then your line isn't very good or the course isn't designed very well. Stay in second.
Decreasing radius turns are very difficult to get right. You have to slow down more than you think you do and you have to torture yourself about holding off on trying to hit the apex of the corner.
Tire pressure is a tricky subject when it comes to FWD cars. I don't want my front tires to roll over and on some street tires with a soft sidewall that is extremely easy to do. I run about 50f/35r on street tires and a little less than that on r compounds. This is with factory suspension. Modifications will change this.
Speaking of mods, the only think you need is more seat time. Don't even buy new tires for a season. You'll be amazed at how much faster you will improve compared to some of your counterparts.
Decreasing radius turns are very difficult to get right. You have to slow down more than you think you do and you have to torture yourself about holding off on trying to hit the apex of the corner.
Tire pressure is a tricky subject when it comes to FWD cars. I don't want my front tires to roll over and on some street tires with a soft sidewall that is extremely easy to do. I run about 50f/35r on street tires and a little less than that on r compounds. This is with factory suspension. Modifications will change this.
Speaking of mods, the only think you need is more seat time. Don't even buy new tires for a season. You'll be amazed at how much faster you will improve compared to some of your counterparts.
Another thing, is don't shift when turning after the launch. My experience is that they always had a little turn or a slalom at the beginning of our courses to make launching less straight forward. Shifting while turning will cause wheel hop or traction loss.
And I am not sure if any one else experiences this, but my steering is so mushy. I have to snap steer during slaloms to make sure I am turning in before the cone.
05-30-2012, 04:07 PM
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Yes yes and yes. When I first started I was shifting like a ****, although I was told my shifting was really smooth and wasn't really that bad for a first time AutoXer, when I stayed in second I noticed a 9 second improvement on my time.
Another thing, is don't shift when turning after the launch. My experience is that they always had a little turn or a slalom at the beginning of our courses to make launching less straight forward. Shifting while turning will cause wheel hop or traction loss.
And I am not sure if any one else experiences this, but my steering is so mushy. I have to snap steer during slaloms to make sure I am turning in before the cone.
Another thing, is don't shift when turning after the launch. My experience is that they always had a little turn or a slalom at the beginning of our courses to make launching less straight forward. Shifting while turning will cause wheel hop or traction loss.
And I am not sure if any one else experiences this, but my steering is so mushy. I have to snap steer during slaloms to make sure I am turning in before the cone.
Scott
05-30-2012, 10:39 PM
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Well the rims didn't fit my car. The kid "didn't know" what bolt pattern they were and google told hom 5x110.... They were not 5x110. Must be an omen that I should stick with the tires I have but still shity I had to waste 10 hours and $80 bucks but whatever.
Here's a pick for ***** and gigs
Here's a pick for ***** and gigs
06-02-2012, 04:13 PM
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Well my next event is tomorrow, already been doing some homework. Looks like rain so I don't know if anyone has substantial advice for that but I think I'll just take it easy the first time around. Also went and checked out the "track" looks very technical with sub 10ft radius turns and no real straights, a plus for my slow car! Lastly looking at the previous times the Street Touring class has some real competition with a couple Evo's :O
Last edited by noorj; 06-02-2012 at 06:50 PM.
06-02-2012, 08:18 PM
#35
You were properly classed in STC (I saw you mention STF once)
You cant legally use PRS or any other spherical style rear control arm bushing, doing so would move you out of Street Tuning.
Like everyone else said, focus on your driving. Only "mod" you should really get is an alignment. Have the tech max out positive toe, this will keep you from getting wear issues, and helps steering as you get closer to zero toe, this is a legal mod. Toe out is illegal an undesirable in your DD or as a Novice.
You can actually legally run as much camber as you can get from the bolt hole enlarging method. Enlarge both holes so the inner layer is the same size as the outer layer, youll be able to get 2.25-2.75 deg camber no problem. 2.2-2.5 will help a lot especially on the allseasons. This will also still avoid excessive wear from DD'ing, more than 2.5 and youll probably start to see wear.
You cant legally use PRS or any other spherical style rear control arm bushing, doing so would move you out of Street Tuning.
Like everyone else said, focus on your driving. Only "mod" you should really get is an alignment. Have the tech max out positive toe, this will keep you from getting wear issues, and helps steering as you get closer to zero toe, this is a legal mod. Toe out is illegal an undesirable in your DD or as a Novice.
You can actually legally run as much camber as you can get from the bolt hole enlarging method. Enlarge both holes so the inner layer is the same size as the outer layer, youll be able to get 2.25-2.75 deg camber no problem. 2.2-2.5 will help a lot especially on the allseasons. This will also still avoid excessive wear from DD'ing, more than 2.5 and youll probably start to see wear.
06-02-2012, 08:47 PM
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Did not know I couldn't use spherical CAB's
thanks i guess. Are there any other stronger replacements I could use? Or maybe just O.E. replacement would be better than mine. Like everyone else said, focus on your driving. Only "mod" you should really get is an alignment. Have the tech max out positive toe, this will keep you from getting wear issues, and helps steering as you get closer to zero toe, this is a legal mod. Toe out is illegal an undesirable in your DD or as a Novice.
You can actually legally run as much camber as you can get from the bolt hole enlarging method. Enlarge both holes so the inner layer is the same size as the outer layer, youll be able to get 2.25-2.75 deg camber no problem. 2.2-2.5 will help a lot especially on the allseasons. This will also still avoid excessive wear from DD'ing, more than 2.5 and youll probably start to see wear.
You can actually legally run as much camber as you can get from the bolt hole enlarging method. Enlarge both holes so the inner layer is the same size as the outer layer, youll be able to get 2.25-2.75 deg camber no problem. 2.2-2.5 will help a lot especially on the allseasons. This will also still avoid excessive wear from DD'ing, more than 2.5 and youll probably start to see wear.
I thought that there was a maximum legal amount of camber I could run? Maybe I read that for a stock class. Do you think any speed shop could do the bolt enlargement method? Wouldn't the knuckle kind of have to much play with there being bigger bolt holes than the bolt?
Sorry for all the questions, still trying to learn! Thanks!
Last edited by noorj; 06-02-2012 at 11:20 PM.
06-03-2012, 10:57 PM
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So today went better than expected. The rain held out for the first heat, I was in the second group so I had to work first which was good because I think I learned a lot about the lines from just watching. On my third run of the first heat it started to rain and a Honda S2000 smacked a pole at about 20mph. After that the course was changed so the finish was about 100ft sooner, avoiding any chance of hitting said poles. So the event was split into two "events", the first heats and the second heats because there was two slightly different courses.
I competed in novice STF and ended up finishing 3rd in class, 44th overall in the first "event"(couldn't get comfortable with how fast I had to push through most of the course). Then finished 2nd in class and 29th overall in the second event after finally becoming comfortable with the speed. There was 69 competitors and 22 in the novice class. I didn't get there early enough so I didn't take alot of pics but there were some really nice cars there, my favorite being a lotus exige
And a couple short vids
[IMG]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZgBqZphYKM[IMG]
I competed in novice STF and ended up finishing 3rd in class, 44th overall in the first "event"(couldn't get comfortable with how fast I had to push through most of the course). Then finished 2nd in class and 29th overall in the second event after finally becoming comfortable with the speed. There was 69
competitors and 22 in the novice class. I didn't get there early enough so I didn't take alot of pics but there were some really nice cars there, my favorite being a lotus exigeAnd a couple short vids
[IMG]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZgBqZphYKM[IMG]
Last edited by noorj; 06-04-2012 at 12:17 PM.
06-04-2012, 12:03 PM
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So on to the advice, I had a couple questions from this one:
Looking at the wear marker on my tires, my front were wearing past the marker and the rears didn't get close to the marker. This means I should go more front tire pressure and less rear pressure right?
I'm going to try to make an interior mount for my shitty digital camera so I can start video taping my runs. But I think I lost alot of time in the two slalom sections because I was turning too wide. Is there any good way to "feel" where they are and where my sweet spot of speed and my line should be?
Lastly, my final run which didn't count for timing but I ended up running a personal best of 41.510! But anyways during that run I tried to focus on really stabbing the brake because I thought I was being way to conservative with them in other runs. But half way through the run I could feel the brakes getting a little soft and even shakking a little. The brakes have less than 1000 miles and felt fine driving home. Was this the fluid getting too hot? Should I look into DOT 4 fluid?
Thanks in advance for any advice!
Also I had my friend who is a GM tech check out my CAB's and he said if it were him he would replace them but the play isn't out of spec yet. So I was looking at these since there very cheap (15 shipped for both at rockauto) and appear to be made for the FE5 as opposed to moog's which are made for the FE1:
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sk...gs+Best+Seller
Unless anyone else has a better suggestion that aren't sphericals
Looking at the wear marker on my tires, my front were wearing past the marker and the rears didn't get close to the marker. This means I should go more front tire pressure and less rear pressure right?
I'm going to try to make an interior mount for my shitty digital camera so I can start video taping my runs. But I think I lost alot of time in the two slalom sections because I was turning too wide. Is there any good way to "feel" where they are and where my sweet spot of speed and my line should be?
Lastly, my final run which didn't count for timing but I ended up running a personal best of 41.510! But anyways during that run I tried to focus on really stabbing the brake because I thought I was being way to conservative with them in other runs. But half way through the run I could feel the brakes getting a little soft and even shakking a little. The brakes have less than 1000 miles and felt fine driving home. Was this the fluid getting too hot? Should I look into DOT 4 fluid?
Thanks in advance for any advice!
Also I had my friend who is a GM tech check out my CAB's and he said if it were him he would replace them but the play isn't out of spec yet. So I was looking at these since there very cheap (15 shipped for both at rockauto) and appear to be made for the FE5 as opposed to moog's which are made for the FE1:
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sk...gs+Best+Seller
Unless anyone else has a better suggestion that aren't sphericals
Last edited by noorj; 06-04-2012 at 12:47 PM.
06-04-2012, 02:39 PM
#42
Here's what I use for a camera mount. It makes for exceptionally good video, if you use an HD camcorder. I'm not a real big fan of the quality coming out of GoPro camcorders.
Site down at the moment:
http://www.amt-engineering.com/stealth_hcm.html
See my sig for samples.
Site down at the moment:
http://www.amt-engineering.com/stealth_hcm.html
See my sig for samples.
06-04-2012, 07:51 PM
#43
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Here's what I use for a camera mount. It makes for exceptionally good video, if you use an HD camcorder. I'm not a real big fan of the quality coming out of GoPro camcorders.
Site down at the moment:
AMT Engineering - Stealth Car Headrest Camera Mount - Motorsport Products for the Active User
See my sig for samples.
Site down at the moment:
AMT Engineering - Stealth Car Headrest Camera Mount - Motorsport Products for the Active User
See my sig for samples.
06-04-2012, 11:23 PM
#44
STF has a better PAX then STC(.794 vs .820) and I was also told by the Solo Chair that because comparable cars were STF (such as Kia Forte, Acura RSX etc.) and me having the NA engine, I could be in STF. Is this not correct or is there some other reason I don't understand why I should be in STC?
Page 181, 2012 Solo Rules, STC Classification:
Sedans & Coupes NOC (nonsports-
car-based; 4-seat minimum;
up to 3.1L normally aspirated)
I know that STF has a better PAX, thats because those cars are all slower than yours should be
Positive toe is toe in correct? Do you happen to know what the maximum I should ask for is?
I thought that there was a maximum legal amount of camber I could run? Maybe I read that for a stock class. Do you think any speed shop could do the bolt enlargement method? Wouldn't the knuckle kind of have to much play with there being bigger bolt holes than the bolt?
Sorry for all the questions, still trying to learn! Thanks!
I thought that there was a maximum legal amount of camber I could run? Maybe I read that for a stock class. Do you think any speed shop could do the bolt enlargement method? Wouldn't the knuckle kind of have to much play with there being bigger bolt holes than the bolt?
Sorry for all the questions, still trying to learn! Thanks!
Youre not enlarging or modifying the knuckle in any way. it the holes in the struts....
06-04-2012, 11:45 PM
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That "illegal" wasnt supposed to be in there....toe out is just undesirable on the street. Stick with as close to zero as you can. Any alignment shop will set your toe to zero as that is still within spec. The way I read the rules you are allowed camber outside of specification if the factory specified adjustment procedure is used to obtain it. So if you properly mod your strut housings per the GM service manual and you get 3.0 degrees camber, then you can legally run 3 degrees camber.
Youre not enlarging or modifying the knuckle in any way. it the holes in the struts....
06-05-2012, 03:53 PM
#46
It's not a widescreen lens. Since the mount is a few inches behind the headrest, that is plenty. I hate watching GoPro and their super wide videos. Too annoying. My camcorder is just slightly widescreen when zoomed all the way out, like I leave it.
06-05-2012, 10:15 PM
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Wang, you said you liked toe-out for better turn in. I've been reading a lot tonight and found that toe out is very good for autox, how much do you run? What would you suggest for me considering it's a daily on all-seasons?
