Speed on Green Cameras(new info-LOCAL ONLY)
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Speed on Green Cameras(new info-LOCAL ONLY)
Originally Posted by CalgarySun
This isn't a case of protecting the idiot who sails through a red light with his foot hard on the gas.
If anything, a $400 careless driving penalty is too lenient for those who endanger others with a 1,300-kg weapon: With 92 Albertans killed in intersection wrecks in 2007, a charge of attempted murder would seem more apt.
Instead, what we have is a battle of wills between Calgary's police brass and their political bosses.
Calgary's police want to use red-light cameras at 40 city intersections to lay careless driving charges; the province says no way.
"Police don't make the laws, we make the laws," said Alberta Transport Minister Luke Ouellette.
Though Alberta allows police to use cameras to lay fines for speeding, and running red lights, Ouellette said careless driving is a fine too far.
"There's no law for police to charge them under if they don't have the guy's driver's licence in their hand," he said.
The controversy comes weeks before police in Alberta use red-light cameras to issue signal infractions and speeding violations.
Under "Speed on Green" legislation supported by Ouellette's department, drivers who speed through intersections on a green light are fined, and drivers who run red lights are fined.
Those who do both should get two tickets -- but not in Calgary, where police now say they will issue only one fine for a double infraction.
Calgary Traffic Sgt. Clive Marsh says drivers who run red lights while speeding will get a careless driving charge, worth a $400 fine.
"I've always said that if there is evidence of unreasonable speed, that a vehicle is travelling too fast through a red light, I would consider laying that charge," said Marsh, of the Specialized Traffic Enforcement Unit.
"We would only consider it under very serious circumstances -- perhaps 1% of drivers."
Drivers will also be fined for speeding on green and yellow, and for running reds.
But doing both will only result in a single careless driving ticket, contrary to provincial legislation.
Marsh said that without evidence to identify the driver, the careless driving charge would be laid against the registered owner of the vehicle.
The stance places Calgary police officials in the hot seat with their political bosses.
It's because they're not only enforcing the law, they now appear to be interpreting it, too.
Ouellette said the serious charges of careless driving goes beyond the scope of policing by camera.
Real police officers are needed to stop drivers deemed dangerous enough to warrant a careless charge, he said.
"They couldn't win one of them (tickets) in court," the minister said.
"They cannot go out and ticket a car if there's not a police officer there doing the job," he said.
Step down, in other words -- only Calgary's police aren't budging, and Marsh said the careless driving crackdown will go ahead as planned.
"I have no comment about what the minister says," said Marsh.
That the issue is headed towards further confrontation is guaranteed -- a spokesman with the minister's office said a sit-down meeting with Calgary police brass will be ordered forthwith.
It won't be the only political front where the police will be battling -- Ald. Diane Colley-Urquhart, who sits on the Police Commission, is also demanding an explanation from city police.
"We need to use the red light cameras for what they were intended -- I'm not convinced that a camera issuing a ticket for careless driving to the owner of the vehicle would stand up in court," said Colley-Urquhart.
"Careless driving is a very serious charge and I would have thought that a police officer would need to consider a number of things before issuing a ticket."
Colley-Urquhart said she worries that when police start interpreting the law, it could open the door to using the cameras for law-enforcement that was never intended.
"What's next, using them to charge people who haven't a registered or insured vehicle?" she said.
If anything, a $400 careless driving penalty is too lenient for those who endanger others with a 1,300-kg weapon: With 92 Albertans killed in intersection wrecks in 2007, a charge of attempted murder would seem more apt.
Instead, what we have is a battle of wills between Calgary's police brass and their political bosses.
Calgary's police want to use red-light cameras at 40 city intersections to lay careless driving charges; the province says no way.
"Police don't make the laws, we make the laws," said Alberta Transport Minister Luke Ouellette.
Though Alberta allows police to use cameras to lay fines for speeding, and running red lights, Ouellette said careless driving is a fine too far.
"There's no law for police to charge them under if they don't have the guy's driver's licence in their hand," he said.
The controversy comes weeks before police in Alberta use red-light cameras to issue signal infractions and speeding violations.
Under "Speed on Green" legislation supported by Ouellette's department, drivers who speed through intersections on a green light are fined, and drivers who run red lights are fined.
Those who do both should get two tickets -- but not in Calgary, where police now say they will issue only one fine for a double infraction.
Calgary Traffic Sgt. Clive Marsh says drivers who run red lights while speeding will get a careless driving charge, worth a $400 fine.
"I've always said that if there is evidence of unreasonable speed, that a vehicle is travelling too fast through a red light, I would consider laying that charge," said Marsh, of the Specialized Traffic Enforcement Unit.
"We would only consider it under very serious circumstances -- perhaps 1% of drivers."
Drivers will also be fined for speeding on green and yellow, and for running reds.
But doing both will only result in a single careless driving ticket, contrary to provincial legislation.
Marsh said that without evidence to identify the driver, the careless driving charge would be laid against the registered owner of the vehicle.
The stance places Calgary police officials in the hot seat with their political bosses.
It's because they're not only enforcing the law, they now appear to be interpreting it, too.
Ouellette said the serious charges of careless driving goes beyond the scope of policing by camera.
Real police officers are needed to stop drivers deemed dangerous enough to warrant a careless charge, he said.
"They couldn't win one of them (tickets) in court," the minister said.
"They cannot go out and ticket a car if there's not a police officer there doing the job," he said.
Step down, in other words -- only Calgary's police aren't budging, and Marsh said the careless driving crackdown will go ahead as planned.
"I have no comment about what the minister says," said Marsh.
That the issue is headed towards further confrontation is guaranteed -- a spokesman with the minister's office said a sit-down meeting with Calgary police brass will be ordered forthwith.
It won't be the only political front where the police will be battling -- Ald. Diane Colley-Urquhart, who sits on the Police Commission, is also demanding an explanation from city police.
"We need to use the red light cameras for what they were intended -- I'm not convinced that a camera issuing a ticket for careless driving to the owner of the vehicle would stand up in court," said Colley-Urquhart.
"Careless driving is a very serious charge and I would have thought that a police officer would need to consider a number of things before issuing a ticket."
Colley-Urquhart said she worries that when police start interpreting the law, it could open the door to using the cameras for law-enforcement that was never intended.
"What's next, using them to charge people who haven't a registered or insured vehicle?" she said.
Originally Posted by CalgarySun
City cops' determination to charge Calgarians caught on intersection speed cameras with careless driving can be defeated if the public stands up to it, say those who fight traffic tickets.
Those specialists say they're surprised provincial Transport Minister Luke Ouellette told the Sun last weekend Calgary police are overstepping their bounds by threatening to issue careless driving charges with the so-called speed-on-green cameras.
The police have said they won't be swayed.
And ex-city cop Charlie Pester said it might ultimately be up to Calgarians to take the tickets to court to foil them.
"People should load up the courts -- fight them, flat-out," said Pester with the company Pointts that assists accused drivers.
"The only way they're going to get the message is if people plead not guilty."
Pester said his longtime predictions police will disturbingly expand their powers to collect more cash are proving true.
Ouellette has argued careless driving charges can't be laid through the use of a camera that can't determine who was behind the vehicle's wheel.
Criminal lawyer Mike Bates said he may be right.
"They're going to charge me with careless driving, but don't know I'm driving? I'm not sure about that," said Bates.
But even if laying the charge is unconstitutional, Dennis Young of the firm Fight That Ticket! said he fears police will succeed in eroding drivers' rights.
"Judges will prosecute whatever the bureaucrats tell them," said Young.
The advent of the cameras will mean a boost to his company's bottom line but Young called it bittersweet, he said.
"It is good for my business, but bad for my country," he said.
Traffic police say intersection cameras have dramatically lowered the number of collisions in Calgary and that they're geared more to promote safety than collecting cash.
Pester disputed those figures, while insisting the move is another cash grab.
"It's always squeeze, squeeze, squeeze more," he said.
"If you let them have an inch, they'll take a mile."
Police say only about 1% of those issued tickets from the cameras are likely to be charged with the $400 careless driving charge.
Those specialists say they're surprised provincial Transport Minister Luke Ouellette told the Sun last weekend Calgary police are overstepping their bounds by threatening to issue careless driving charges with the so-called speed-on-green cameras.
The police have said they won't be swayed.
And ex-city cop Charlie Pester said it might ultimately be up to Calgarians to take the tickets to court to foil them.
"People should load up the courts -- fight them, flat-out," said Pester with the company Pointts that assists accused drivers.
"The only way they're going to get the message is if people plead not guilty."
Pester said his longtime predictions police will disturbingly expand their powers to collect more cash are proving true.
Ouellette has argued careless driving charges can't be laid through the use of a camera that can't determine who was behind the vehicle's wheel.
Criminal lawyer Mike Bates said he may be right.
"They're going to charge me with careless driving, but don't know I'm driving? I'm not sure about that," said Bates.
But even if laying the charge is unconstitutional, Dennis Young of the firm Fight That Ticket! said he fears police will succeed in eroding drivers' rights.
"Judges will prosecute whatever the bureaucrats tell them," said Young.
The advent of the cameras will mean a boost to his company's bottom line but Young called it bittersweet, he said.
"It is good for my business, but bad for my country," he said.
Traffic police say intersection cameras have dramatically lowered the number of collisions in Calgary and that they're geared more to promote safety than collecting cash.
Pester disputed those figures, while insisting the move is another cash grab.
"It's always squeeze, squeeze, squeeze more," he said.
"If you let them have an inch, they'll take a mile."
Police say only about 1% of those issued tickets from the cameras are likely to be charged with the $400 careless driving charge.
FYI to those who don't know, careless driving tickets are worth 6 points on your license..........for those driving the 2dr sports car variety a ticket like that will jump your insurance quite a bit
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I support the police in what they are doing...but in the same hand they can not give the registered owner the "careless driving" ticket because they can not prove that that was the person driving the car.
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just like any photoradar ticket u get, FIGHT IT!!!! They cannot ever prove you were driving and thus the judge will toss the ticket out the window everytime.
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i must protest, i've gotten away with ALOT of **** in my years, to be quite blunt i should not have a license for the **** that's happened in my past. But I have met multiple officers that could have screwed me over but made the decision not to........I'd call myself pretty average in most respects. If I were to count the potential demerits that could have been issued I would have had my license suspended 2 times already just by points alone. There is plenty of good officers out there still, if I saw one in serious trouble I would absolutely do my best to help.
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Last year I got pulled over a few times just for having my Sky. I'd always be driving within the speed limit. Once I even got told that they're pulling me over because it's late Saturday night and you're in a "sports car". Usually they would go over the car just looking for an excuse to give me some sort of ticket.
When I went to file a complaint with the Calgary Police Service, I was told they were doing a crackdown on street racing and any car that looks like a street racer gets pulled over. Basically, regardless of the way I drove, I would get pulled over on Friday and Saturday nights because of the type of car I was driving. I also told that police officer if ever I saw a cop that needed my help, I would probably turn the other way. He seemed shocked and surprised. I'm not vindictive by nature. I won't intentionally cause anyone harm. But, I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to help any officer on the Calgary Police Force.
When I went to file a complaint with the Calgary Police Service, I was told they were doing a crackdown on street racing and any car that looks like a street racer gets pulled over. Basically, regardless of the way I drove, I would get pulled over on Friday and Saturday nights because of the type of car I was driving. I also told that police officer if ever I saw a cop that needed my help, I would probably turn the other way. He seemed shocked and surprised. I'm not vindictive by nature. I won't intentionally cause anyone harm. But, I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to help any officer on the Calgary Police Force.
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I have to agree with Ed for my own reasons which stem from personal encounters with the so called cops we have here in calgary. Maybe and I mean just maybe they should focus on the illegal gun running and drug trade that is here in our city where they can actually obtain the evidence to convict someone not putting up cameras on green lights and waisting the general publics time and money fighting a ticket where they can't prove who was driving the car. All there doing is creating another cash cow 
Last edited by Malek; Mar 25, 2009 at 10:23 AM.
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From: Red Deer, Alberta
The Calgary "Police Force" is a disgrace to good law enforcement agencies all over. I would be appalled as a taxpayer in Calgary that they are wasting your money setting up systems like this. Calgary has bigger problems (gangs anyone?) than this....
*shakes head*
*shakes head*
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Last year I got pulled over a few times just for having my Sky. I'd always be driving within the speed limit. Once I even got told that they're pulling me over because it's late Saturday night and you're in a "sports car". Usually they would go over the car just looking for an excuse to give me some sort of ticket.
When I went to file a complaint with the Calgary Police Service, I was told they were doing a crackdown on street racing and any car that looks like a street racer gets pulled over. Basically, regardless of the way I drove, I would get pulled over on Friday and Saturday nights because of the type of car I was driving. I also told that police officer if ever I saw a cop that needed my help, I would probably turn the other way. He seemed shocked and surprised. I'm not vindictive by nature. I won't intentionally cause anyone harm. But, I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to help any officer on the Calgary Police Force.
When I went to file a complaint with the Calgary Police Service, I was told they were doing a crackdown on street racing and any car that looks like a street racer gets pulled over. Basically, regardless of the way I drove, I would get pulled over on Friday and Saturday nights because of the type of car I was driving. I also told that police officer if ever I saw a cop that needed my help, I would probably turn the other way. He seemed shocked and surprised. I'm not vindictive by nature. I won't intentionally cause anyone harm. But, I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to help any officer on the Calgary Police Force.
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yea i did end up getting pulled over once in my Elantra just because they thought my turn signals were an illegal color, they checked the bulbs and they were of course within the law. I can't blame the cops for pulling ppl over in sports cars on the weekend, I don't even want to know how many accidents they've encountered because some kid was street racing.........not saying any of us are that kid but how would the cop ever know the difference without pulling you over?? I know, they shouldn't pull anyone over without a GOOD reason to do so but you gotta look at it from their point of view and how frustrated they must be sometimes, being a cop is not an easy job, alot of mental mindfuck from the start to the end of your shift, every day.
Do you know how many cops I have seen throw on there flashers and pin it through an intersection just to get to the timmies around the corner? How many near misses do you think that cops cause themselves because they have a siren and pretty little lights on there car? Some cops are just as bad drivers if not worse than the general public when it comes to speeding and careless driving. If we get tickets than so should they but the public has to do something about it and I can't see it happening because as soon as you **** off one cop then all of them will be all over your ass. There like a gang themselves if you mess with one of them you will have to deal with them all, this I know from my friends experiences where my friends ended up being black flagged in there computer.
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I don't think they have any right to pull anyone over without that person breaking the law and they were there to see. One incendent that happened to me that I absolutley did not agree with was when my bro and I went to the bank a few months back, I parked my car in the parking lot and went inside and my bro and I watched a car pull off of 52nd street and pull into the parking lot, they drove over to my car and parked behind it blocking my car. My brother and I went out to see what was going on and as we were walking out both police oficers stepped out of there vehicle and proceded to look over my car, I asked the female oficer what was going on and she said " we saw a younger gentlmen get out of the car and it didn't seem right that such a young man was driving this car". WTF??? what does my age have to do with the car I drive. They ended up leaving without hasseling me any further but what was the point of that? My car was parked and I was in the bank before they entered the parking lot. Calgary police are drunk off of the fact that they have some sort of "power" over the general public and they feel that they can do what they want when they want.
Do you know how many cops I have seen throw on there flashers and pin it through an intersection just to get to the timmies around the corner? How many near misses do you think that cops cause themselves because they have a siren and pretty little lights on there car? Some cops are just as bad drivers if not worse than the general public when it comes to speeding and careless driving. If we get tickets than so should they but the public has to do something about it and I can't see it happening because as soon as you **** off one cop then all of them will be all over your ass. There like a gang themselves if you mess with one of them you will have to deal with them all, this I know from my friends experiences where my friends ended up being black flagged in there computer.
Do you know how many cops I have seen throw on there flashers and pin it through an intersection just to get to the timmies around the corner? How many near misses do you think that cops cause themselves because they have a siren and pretty little lights on there car? Some cops are just as bad drivers if not worse than the general public when it comes to speeding and careless driving. If we get tickets than so should they but the public has to do something about it and I can't see it happening because as soon as you **** off one cop then all of them will be all over your ass. There like a gang themselves if you mess with one of them you will have to deal with them all, this I know from my friends experiences where my friends ended up being black flagged in there computer.
The whole young driver thing...........u can't really give them **** for that, again, u don't want to know how many times a month they run into kids who don't have a license, if u were underage and the cop just ignored you then 3 blocks later u kill someone in an accident, guess what? that cop is now liable for it because they saw you and did nothing..........sometimes i think we are all a little hard on cops, they deal with more mental bullshit in a year than any of us will deal with in our entire lifetime...........i won't deny there is definitely corruption going on but I wouldn't say its as bad as some of u make it out to be......
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I must protest the flashers on to get to the Tims, if u did not know, ANYTIME the siren or lights go on the incident is logged by a computer and monitored by someone at dispatch. Immediately the dispatch person will be asking the unit why their hit the lights and/or siren without calling it in first. If they are caught doing as you said, they will have it added to their file and if they are caught doing it again i'm sure there is room for dismissal.
The whole young driver thing...........u can't really give them **** for that, again, u don't want to know how many times a month they run into kids who don't have a license, if u were underage and the cop just ignored you then 3 blocks later u kill someone in an accident, guess what? that cop is now liable for it because they saw you and did nothing..........sometimes i think we are all a little hard on cops, they deal with more mental bullshit in a year than any of us will deal with in our entire lifetime...........i won't deny there is definitely corruption going on but I wouldn't say its as bad as some of u make it out to be......
The whole young driver thing...........u can't really give them **** for that, again, u don't want to know how many times a month they run into kids who don't have a license, if u were underage and the cop just ignored you then 3 blocks later u kill someone in an accident, guess what? that cop is now liable for it because they saw you and did nothing..........sometimes i think we are all a little hard on cops, they deal with more mental bullshit in a year than any of us will deal with in our entire lifetime...........i won't deny there is definitely corruption going on but I wouldn't say its as bad as some of u make it out to be......
As to the age thing I'm 30 years old man so you can't confuse me with a young punk with no drivers license. Even if they think that your younger would that not be considered discrimination or would you consider that as there just doing there job?
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I see the lights being flashed all the time man, I know what I see and you can't tell me any different. Next time i'll get it on video just to make you happy.
As to the age thing I'm 30 years old man so you can't confuse me with a young punk with no drivers license. Even if they think that your younger would that not be considered discrimination or would you consider that as there just doing there job?
As to the age thing I'm 30 years old man so you can't confuse me with a young punk with no drivers license. Even if they think that your younger would that not be considered discrimination or would you consider that as there just doing there job?
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oh lol k, the 30 years old thing is uhhhh yea, unreasonable, imo i would have gotten their badge #'s and complained. For the lights flashing thing, ABSOLUTELY get it on video so that a copy can be sent to the police, if the police are not willing to do anything, we'll continue collecting footage and give it to the media.
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I have to agree with Ed for my own reasons which stem from personal encounters with the so called cops we have here in calgary. Maybe and I mean just maybe they should focus on the illegal gun running and drug trade that is here in our city where they can actually obtain the evidence to convict someone not putting up cameras on green lights and waisting the general publics time and money fighting a ticket where they can't prove who was driving the car. All there doing is creating another cash cow
Investigating drugs and illegal guns means some real police work might be required. (ie: thinking involved)
Giving out tickets with green light cameras. (ie: no thinking involved)
I for one, think that if you are doing 50+kmh over the speed limit and run a red light, more investigation is warranted. If that means going to court, then so be it. I think the procedure is off, but the concept is right.
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sounds good to me man, things work a bit different up in the N.E when it comes to cops. I'm glad we could keep this conversation respectable and are able to actually "talk" about it and not argue like other threads I have seen on this site when it comes to a subject like this
they are usually headed in the right direction but they usually fumble when it comes to how the rules are setup and procedures ect.
Last edited by 1WhiteSSTC; Mar 25, 2009 at 06:39 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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I may get flamed for this but we have all had bad experience with the police, but going to the extent of saying that every cop in calgary is shitty may be a little far.there is a few that care about what is going on. Fact is the speed on green and redlight cameras should not be an issue if you drive like you should within city limits. I believe the carless driving ticket would be just a fine and probably not demerits as well correct
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i remember everyone went thru this same sorta thing when photoradar came out, it all came down to as you said, you are responsible for the vehicle, if u loan it to a friend and they get a ticket, it's your responsibility to pay the ticket and ensure your friend repays you for it. That also leads me to believe there would not be any demerits points given with the issued ticket. As well, like the article said, most judges are on your side if u go fight it, there was no police officer there to actually issue you the ticket, it's the same as any photoradar ticket, u can fight them and u will win, when the judge calls the "officer" who wrote u the ticket.......yea nobody there to represent that side of the case so the ticket is thrown out, it's been that way since day 1 of photoradar.
Last edited by 1WhiteSSTC; Mar 25, 2009 at 07:59 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Also the money spent on these will probably be paid for 3 times over within a month hahaha. With probably one of us getting a speeding ticket. Hopefully are city police eventually get a focus on things mentioned as gangs and not worry about some of this other stuff, but speeding does kill many people in calgaty a year from accidents as well so hopefully with this automation they can take some focus of this and focus on the gangs. Don't get me wrong I think this is a cash cow and eventually they will have something in vehicles that will automatically track and ticket us
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Also the money spent on these will probably be paid for 3 times over within a month hahaha. With probably one of us getting a speeding ticket. Hopefully are city police eventually get a focus on things mentioned as gangs and not worry about some of this other stuff, but speeding does kill many people in calgaty a year from accidents as well so hopefully with this automation they can take some focus of this and focus on the gangs. Don't get me wrong I think this is a cash cow and eventually they will have something in vehicles that will automatically track and ticket us
o no lol it will be entirely automated, u CANNOT go past 50km/h on set roads, the computer will have GPS maps and not allow speeds beyond the limits set by local authorities. If you plan to race it on a track, when u enter the track area the limiter's will automatically be turned off.